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Old 09-01-2013, 01:32 AM   #1
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Default Motor For 81" OV-10D NOGS Bronco

Need your experienced opinion!

I plan to compete with scale three blade prop and Tru-Turn spinners. Prop clearance permits a 15.5 scale diameter.

I have an 81" OV-10D NOGS NAA Bronco I am matching motors to. This is to be competed with and want it to use three blade props.

Trying to decide between the Tacon 60 and 110 versions of the HobbyPartz Big Foot motors which I understand are compared to Horizon's motors on an equal step for step basis.

60 size: 96M606-Bigfoot-60-400Kv 11S max

110 size: 96M607-Bigfoot110-5325-295Kv 14S max

I want to keep everything cool while pulling with adequate torque.

Which are you using on what airframe with what draw and temperature results.

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Old 09-01-2013, 01:36 AM   #2
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Power depends on weight. What is your estimated AUW?
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:48 AM   #3
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Default Auw 11~12#

With everything onboard and carrying this configuration its going to be close to 10-12#.



Here again, we're fully capable of managing throttle so don't let the 110 influence your replies. In competitive dress I would normally expect to use a pair of YS 90 four stroke at a minimum since there are high angles of attack for all close support turbo-props. They spend as much time @ 45 degrees as they do level.

I am a bit concerned for using the 60's with scale three blades compared to the 110 where it should not present any issues. It half throttle loads on the ESC that is my primary concern.

I expect to see props recommended in the 15/10-12 range. 1:1 blades at the time of the in-country proof of concept trials in Nam were hollow rounded tip.


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Old 09-01-2013, 01:54 AM   #4
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The 60's would be more than enough for 12lbs. And again less weight is better! The KV is important too since you are limited in prop size. So how many cells you running? The 110 (I have one) would have to spin a BIG prop.
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:59 AM   #5
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Default 15~16# auw

I am concerned for the bearings in the 60 vs the 110. The Kv differential limits the 60 to
11S vs. the 110's 14s capability.

Full articulaton of the FLIR and the M-167 will take it up to 15~16#. I do not have
the gear at this time. In its 1/5th configuration it is about 7#. Here again, I am more
concerned with midrange throttle settings effecting the ESC negatively with a 110.
The electro-mechanical load on the ESC is the unknown with a three blade.

Have not seen anything to compare it to. I have no knowledge of the 110 size motor
so that's why I am here. There is no $ differential between these ($2 )

How hot do you think the ESC will get at 1/2 throttle on the 110?

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Old 09-01-2013, 02:16 AM   #6
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Default ESC Air Ducting

Zinger's 15/12 three blade is perfect for emulating the 16/10 normal 110 prop.

How hot do you think the ESC will get with the 110 at 50~60% throttle? Unlike
our EDF the ESC, placement will be critical. I can create ducting pathway through
the firewall with ESC sitting sideways in the ducting. Exit would be through the
huge scale exhaust shroud on side of each boom.


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Old 09-01-2013, 02:32 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
I am concerned for the bearings in the 60 vs the 110. The Kv differential limits the 60 to
11S vs. the 110's 14s capability.
Why they are more than sufficient. If you are concerned about quality there are MUCH better motor choices however.

Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
The Kv differential limits the 60 to
11S vs. the 110's 14s capability.
The 60 is best run at 6s (not 11s) and the 110 best at 8-10s.

I think you are going about the power system a bit backwards. I pick the motor based on the battery voltage intended for the performance needed in the model.

I can tell you want the 8-10s system but then you get HIGH dollar ESC's and candidly many more issues.

Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Full articulaton of the FLIR and the M-167 will take it up to 15~16#. I do not have
the gear at this time. In its 1/5th configuration it is about 7#.
That is MUCH more what I would have expected for a twin of this size. That in fact may be conservative.

Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Here again, I am more
concerned with midrange throttle settings effecting the ESC negatively with a 110.
Yep as a general rule they run much hotter when they are not a full throttle. But with proper cooling you should be fine.

Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
The electro-mechanical load on the ESC is the unknown with a three blade.
Eh? You totally lost me here... Three blades, two blades single blade does not matter they are all just a load.

Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Have not seen anything to compare it to. I have no knowledge of the 110 size motor
so that's why I am here.
I have it and have been very happy with it. I needs to spin a BIG prop. I had mine with a 18" propeller on my application. I am worried that you won't be able to load it enough on a 15" unless you are at 10s. That is really excessive IMHO.

Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
There is no $ differential between these ($2 )

How hot do you think the ESC will get at 1/2 throttle on the 110?
Price is irrelevant (well OK it's not totally). What I am getting at is You need the "right" motor, kV and voltage for your needs.

The ESC's running the very high voltage need VERY good cooling. You must plan for this.

Have you considered a 90 size motor? That might be the ticket.
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:43 AM   #8
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Default 18# no issue with 1215 sq.in.

As for the AUW, the entire model sans camo (aka light weight rattle can applied) is very light...
I have yet to weight it assembled but with 1215 sq.in. of built up wing its going to be aok @ 18#.
What 90 do you recommend?

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Old 09-01-2013, 02:45 AM   #9
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Ed how many cells you going to run? Once we have that - we can pick your motor.

6s? 8s? more?
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:50 AM   #10
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I have 12S config for an EDF project which can break down to my using 10S. I have to use
higher capacity so I can get a full 10/12 minute flight in a concurrent four flite line as I have
to take into consideration loiter due to one of the other three having a landing issue.

I will config the OV-10 by itself as the EDF's are 12,000's and no sense to use a high
dollar configuration when the OV-10 doesn't have to stretch on capacity as much.

What size is your Beaufighter? That is a future for myself...

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Old 09-01-2013, 03:02 AM   #11
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I consider both 10s and 12s to be FAR beyond the power needed for a 18lb twin. It will also add weight that is not necessary.

Rich Ultravich runs 12s on his 109" OV-10. It weights 52 lbs.

http://www.richuravitch.com/
http://www.hobbyhangar.com/hhbaseline_002.htm

This airplane is about as big as yours. They are using 4s with 25-32 electric motors.



I think you are planning way to big for your motors, way too many cells.

I think two 4000-5000 6s packs are they way to go with 60 motors.

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Old 09-01-2013, 03:02 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Need your experienced opinion!

I plan to compete with scale three blade prop and Tru-Turn spinners. Prop clearance permits a 15.5 scale diameter.

I have an 81" OV-10D NOGS NAA Bronco I am matching motors to. This is to be competed with and want it to use three blade props.

Trying to decide between the Tacon 60 and 110 versions of the HobbyPartz Big Foot motors which I understand are compared to Horizon's motors on an equal step for step basis.

[LEFT]60 size: 96M606-Bigfoot-60-400Kv 11S max

[LEFT]110 size: 96M607-Bigfoot110-5325-295Kv 14S max


I want to keep everything cool while pulling with adequate torque.

Which are you using on what airframe with what draw and temperature results.
You might also check the Hacker A50 series of motors for this project. Figuring perhaps 150 Watts per pound of airplane, at 18 pounds (Worst Case) that would be a total of 2700 Watts, or about 1.4 KW per motor.

That would be a Hacker A50-12S, A50-12L or similar size motor with a 6S LiPo. www.motocalc.com shows that the A50-12L with a 6S battery will turn a 15X10 three blade prop at about 6800 RPM, putting out 208 ounces of thrust per motor, with a blade pitch speed of 65 MPH. The Hacker A50-12L motor can operate to 8 Series LiPo's, with either a smaller diameter prop, or lower pitch prop, or perhaps both. The Hacker A60-12L motor can be run at 70 Amps without issue, with 100 Amps for short durations. (Very short!) That 70 Amps times 6 cells of 3.3 Volts DC is about 1400 Watts each.

FYI, a program such as www.motocalc.com will be quite useful for your power selection. Note that motocalc is only as accurate as the specs provided by the motor supplier. Some suppliers are not even close, my 9 Hacker motors are pretty close to specs. Note that with 1100 square inches of wing, and 18 pounds, your model is going to have a significant wing loading of around 37 ounces per square foot. IMHO, this is not the time to go cheap on the power system for your model. (I just ran the numbers through Motocalc. Motocalc's results show that you'd need a 15X12 three blade prop to get a high enough propeller blast in MPH, since motocalc shows your models stalling speed at 28 MPH. The prop blast for the 15X12 prop will be about 74 MPH. Problem will be trying to find one. Or, go to 7 or 8 series LiPos, and use a lower pitch three blader that might be more available.

As for ESC's, the Castle Creations 90 Amp Talon unit is pretty good. Hacker specs their ESC current ratings with about 5 MPH air passing through the model. I've got one. It also has a high power switching type uBEC (Battery Elimination Circuit) to run your receiver/servos. I've got info on how to parallel connect the two BEC's in the two ESC's for redundant receiver power for your twin. Just a pair of Shottky diodes. Let me know if interested.

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Old 09-01-2013, 03:25 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
Rich Ultravich runs 12s on his 109" OV-10. It weights 52 lbs. Mike
Yes, I sell Rich's sport scale OV-10. I considered converting his 1/4 scale but in the
end decided to stay with this design after developing it from scratch as an FAI F4C.
There are a ton of differences between his design and mine that translate to weight.

Can you point me to comparable twin on YouTube so I can see what you propose?
As was stated by Kyle, and I totally agree about the results posted online...I
prefer watching flight and timing a video to make decisions instead of calcs.

I will have to go with higher capacity than 5k to achieve a solid 10-11 min. flight.

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Old 09-01-2013, 03:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Yes, I sell Rich's sport scale OV-10.

Can you point me to comparable twin on YouTube so I can see what you propose?
As was stated by Kyle, and I totally agree about the results posted online...I
prefer watching flight and timing a video to make decisions instead of calcs.
I would think Rich might have some input.

Take a look at the Otter on youtube. It has stunning performace on 25 size motors on 4s. I have flown it and didnt want for more power. I think 1200w per side would be gobs of power.

Hacker or scorpion would be very good.

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Old 09-01-2013, 03:44 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Yes, I sell Rich's sport scale OV-10. I considered converting his 1/4 scale but in the
end decided to stay with this design after developing it from scratch as an FAI F4C.
There are a ton of differences between his design and mine that translate to weight.

Can you point me to comparable twin on YouTube so I can see what you propose?
As was stated by Kyle, and I totally agree about the results posted online...I
prefer watching flight and timing a video to make decisions instead of calcs.

I will have to go with higher capacity than 5k to achieve a solid 10-11 min. flight.
H'mmm
Ten minute flights, at 50 Amps? That will require a battery pack of 10X50 or 500 Ampere Minutes. Divide that by 60 minutes/hour and you need a battery pack of 8 Amp Hours, or 8000 Mah or so, for each motor. That battery pack will be HEAVY.

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Old 09-01-2013, 03:52 AM   #16
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Agree 5000 would be large maybe even too large. I bet with throttle management you could get decent flight lengths.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:54 AM   #17
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Default 8 Amp Hours / 8000 Mah minimum

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
H'mmm Ten minute flights, at 50 Amps? That will
require a battery pack of 10X50 or 500 Ampere Minutes.

Divide that by 60 minutes/hour and you need a battery pack of 8 Amp Hours,
or 8000 Mah or so, for each motor. That battery pack will be HEAVY.
Denny,

Yes, that is my minimum calculation. That at this point is what I consider the minimum.
I am not finding anything comparable to my OV-10 anywhere. Rich's 81" is close. I have
not found anything comparable in flights to witness what on paper appears to be good.

Unlike jet flight on YouTube, a twin is more difficult to find, especially one of par size.
Witnessing a jet single's performance @ a weight and design then doubling the specs
provided an easy process for our two 1:8.7669 B-47's.

So far every reference is to smaller models flown for less time.

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Old 09-01-2013, 04:07 AM   #18
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Default Flight Performance Vs. Watts Across 11~12 Minutes

Originally Posted by rcers View Post
Agree 5000 would be large maybe even too large. I bet with throttle management
you could get decent flight lengths.
Its not simply the time against throttle management. I have 9 prototypical maneuvers
to perform to the letter of their description. There are a maximum of 15 minutes to fly
these, plus contend with loitering while three other aircraft are in various stages of their
flight plans. A typical runway crash will take 5 minutes to clear before anyone can land.

There is no similarity between our jet battery config and that for the Bronco. The prop'd
OV-10 is way more effecient per watt. This is what has me unclear about management
of the Bronco's power.

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Old 09-01-2013, 06:15 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Its not simply the time against throttle management. I have 9 prototypical maneuvers
to perform to the letter of their description. There are a maximum of 15 minutes to fly
these, plus contend with loitering while three other aircraft are in various stages of their
flight plans. A typical runway crash will take 5 minutes to clear before anyone can land.

There is no similarity between our jet battery config and that for the Bronco. The prop'd
OV-10 is way more effecient per watt. This is what has me unclear about management
of the Bronco's power.
Methinks a 15 minute flight on a heavily loaded twin electric airplane might be difficult to achieve. Just adding bigger batteries results in added battery weight to the model. And that extra weight for more flying time can quickly result in high level wing loadings, and a model that won't fly well.

All of my giant scale models weighing on the order of 16 pounds had flight times of 6-7 minutes, with a three minute reserve in case someone was on the field, missed landing approaches, or similar issues. Those models had wing loadings on the order of 30 ounces per square foot.

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Old 09-01-2013, 06:28 AM   #20
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IMHO I would stay Away from the TACON Motors, here is why Below. and i would use a EFlite POWER 60 or EFlite POWER 90 motor or Hacker motor, E Flite motors tend to be underated and you can push them a lot, USE a Turnigy PLUSH or Sentry ESC, They tend to be better than the EFlite ESC and Cheaper too IMHO. That Bronco is a nice plane, and I would not trust a cheapy motor for it, this is where a better Quality motors comes into play with multi motor planes.

http://www.hobbypartz.com/96m606-big...030-400kv.html

Big Foot 60
March 11, 2013
Reviewer: Christopher Loesch
Started out as a nice motor.... after about 6 12min flights motors started making a screeching sound ant 3/4 throttle range. Not sure if it my error or a bad motor. Setup: Monster 60, Detrum 80a ESC and Sky Lipo 22.2v 5000mAh battery
6 of 6 people found this review helpful
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Bigfoot 60 Motor
March 19, 2012
Reviewer: Wayne Osborne
Initially I was very impressed with this motor, however four have now died in a relatively short time.

As all four did exactly the same thing I don't think I got an odd bad motor, I think they must all be crook as HP would not even answer me.

They start out with a noise at one point in the rev range which keeps getting worse, then they throw magnets and seize.

This happened twice in flight but I managed successful dead stick landings.
Didn't push my luck with the other two making the same noise.

Each time they seize they blow an ESC as well, so these turned out to be very expensive motors.

So do yourself a big favour and get a new OS electric instead, the 5020-490 is a much better performing replacement and much cheaper in the long term.
23 of 27 people found this review helpful
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Tacon Big foot 60
October 30, 2011
Reviewer: FlyRCwithMe Verified Customer

Nice strong 60 size electric motor. I have it bolted to a 60 size Twist and W O W is what I say. So much power! With a 16x8 APC electric prop there is only your imignation and talent restricting what you can do. I'm running a 70 amp Esc and it just outperforms my expectations every time I run it. I will buy again but 30 flights later, no signs of wear. . .
11 of 11 people found this review helpful
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Bigfoot 60 Motor
September 25, 2011
Reviewer: Wayne Osborne
Wow, does this motor have some grunt!

I put it in a low wing Tiger 60 using Skylipo 6S 4400 30C battery, through a Volcano 60A OPTO ESC with 5A BEC swinging a 15x8E prop.

The performance was outstanding, noticeably better than a Turnigy of the same size.

I bought this motor because I was so impressed with the Monster 60 I put in a Hanger 9 Pulse XT60 set up exactly the same way, but the Monster 60 was out of stock.

Although I believe the Bigfoot motors are excellent quality in general I did have a horrible grinding noise coming in at one point in the rev range, a rare problem I'm told by HP who will replace the motor.

I am a big fan of the Monster series, I think the prop adapter system is better and they have proven their performance and reliability to me.

Overall magic performance, probably just unlucky with this problem as my other Bigfoot motors seem okay. I think it's safe to recommend this motor, especially in the absence of Monsters.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:42 AM   #21
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Default E Flite POWER 60 and 90 Specs

http://www.horizonhobby.com/products...FeZxQgodfjgAoA


http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...=Product-Feeds

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Old 09-01-2013, 01:38 PM   #22
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Strive for light then - if you have to stuff 8000 mAh worth of 6s packs you need a lighter airplane for sure.

I hate to say it but if you need to consider glow/gas if you have to be in the air 15 minutes.

If we can get your final weight locked in at maybe a pound or two under that can all go to battery for duration. You need quality components for this. If light enough - the Scorpion or Hyperion motors are tough to beat. They are efficient and you will need that for the longer flight times.

You won't find lots of twin vids on you tube. That is why I was using the mainstream twin otter from Horizon. It shows how a model, granted a bit smaller, will perform with just 25 size motors.

Your duration is one more reason NOT to use bigger motors than you need. You are fighting a weight battle to get more battery for your project. Remember we grossly overpower RC models. This will do stuff the full scale never dreamed of, power wise.

Keep that in mind. Twins (I have had MANY electric twins - I love em!) also fly better with a bit less power. I flew Keith Sparks OV-10 for many years on 480's then off to small brushless where the power was stunning.

You can start with the Multiplex Twin Star. Back in the early days I flew those with 8 cell HEAVY NiCad and NiMh packs. That was 50 plus ounces with two s400's direct drive! That was with tiny 5x3 props to boot. It was astonishing that it flew so well. It was a heavy beast yet performed wonderfully.

So I say again 110's are out. 90 size should be out. 60 size should be gobs and 46 size should be on the deck for consideration.

So my vote:
  • Motor -http://www.scorpionsystem.com/catalog/motors/sii-40_series/SII_4020-540/ GOBS of power and 10oz!
  • ESC - Castle Creations Talon 90's (Disable BEC's - use separate LiFe pack)
  • Battery - 2 6s 4000's in parallel
Best of luck with the project....


Mike


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Old 09-01-2013, 02:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
IMHO I would stay Away from the TACON Motors, here is why Below. and i would use a EFlite POWER 60 or EFlite POWER 90
motor or Hacker motor, E Flite motors tend to be underated and you can push them a lot, USE a Turnigy PLUSH or Sentry
ESC, They tend to be better than the EFlite ESC and Cheaper too IMHO. That Bronco is a nice plane, and I would not trust
a cheapy motor for it, this is where a better Quality motors comes into
play with multi motor planes.
Chellie,

Yes,

I read the feedback and this is part of the parting of the road process

This thread and the other one were created to find individuals using not only these two motors but utilizing these sizes in comparable
airframes.

While I appreciate everyone's concern for weight as it might appear I am dead set on shoe horning a motor into this application, the
opposite is the truth as I am playing devils advocate instead of throwing $ at powering a first upgrade to prop electric of a model explicitly
built to compete with.

In the number of years I have been on WattFlyer I rarely find anyone who competes in scale contests. You are aware of my EDF project.
I decided to place it in WattFlyer because of the scale contest participant deficit in the site. Especially FAI F4C utilizing electric.

Ed Clayman
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:53 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Chellie,

Yes,

I read the feedback and this is part of the parting of the road process
This thread and the other one were created to find individuals using not only these two motors but utilizing these sizes in comparable
airframes.

While I appreciate everyone's concern for weight as it might appear I am dead set on shoe horning a motor into this application, the opposite is the truth as I am playing devils advocate instead of throwing $
at powering a first upgrade to prop electric of a model explicitly built to compete with.

In the number of years I have been on WattFlyer I rarely find anyone who competes in scale contests. You are aware of my EDF project. I decided to place it in WattFlyer because of the scale contest participant
deficit in the site. Especially FAI F4C utilizing electric.
Well I have competed every year at DEAF. So you can add me to the list.

It is a very low key competition - the way I like them. But scale competition is decreasing no question.

I just feel you were trying to use 12s and 110 motor setups in a model that does not need it. 6s is gobs here IMHO. And an all out scale beauty deserves good motors not Tacon. Just my humble opinion.

Best of luck.

Mike
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:08 PM   #25
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Mike,

I appreciate your and everyone's contrbution to my wading through the lack of twin scale electric projects. While few
in WattFlyer understand competitive flying scale modeling, I am taking the path to share a scratch project from cradle
to grave in the B-47 threads (3).

Funny how the foreground with a twin propped scale subject is identical in experience within WattFlyer or for that matter
"anywhere". As these things tend to be, pain and agony, and we tend to be a little more than OCD about each we do.
Those with the experience commonly hide the details under their nearest rock.

I attribute that to the fact electric is borne from DIY, as is everything outside the current mainstream of glow and gasoline.
Don't know if its the fact some of us have watched gas prices steadily climb and the mess of glow continues for a while until
gas ends that part of the hobby.

The reason I made duplicate inquiries should be obvious as I sought those with a scale aka heavier airframe experience.
Thoughts of flying a 40# EDF would scare most within WattFlyer.

Ed Clayman
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