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Old 10-17-2013, 01:57 AM   #1
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Default Redwing MXSR Model Conversion

OK

After waiting for 7 weeks after placing the order, the Redwing Giant Scale MXSR model showed up. And, of course, it was electrified. This is a fairly large model, with a 76 inch wingspan, 1100 square inches of wing, and around 14 pounds weight. Of the 14 pounds, 60 ounces is twenty A123 cells, 23 ounces is the Hacker A60-5 motor, and about 4 ounces for the Castle Creations 80 Amp HV ESC.

Receiver power is a CC 10 Amp uBEC connected to 1/2 of the 10S2P battery pack, along with a pair of A123 cells for backup battery power. The prop is an APC-E 19X12 electric wide blade unit.

This winds up at about 120 watts per pound of airplane, a respectable value for a giant model. If it becomes necessary, two extra A123's can be added to make the battery an 11S2P pack.

It was interesting, it was quickly noted that this model, even with the big heavy A123 battery pack was going to be significantly tail heavy. The battery pack was split apart, and sandwiched up front, making the CG right on the specified value.

Guess that 23 ounces for the Hacker motor is quite a bit less than the total of 43 ounces for the DLE-30 gasser with associated ignition, muffler, battery pack, and gas tank.

This model is ready to fly, just waiting for the rain to stop around here. Once the model completes the maiden flight, the wheel pants will be installed. A club member also has this same model, powered by that DLE 30 gasser.

Redwing models has a very nice bit of craftsmanship in this model. It's just to bad that attempts to contact Redwing models by phone and by email resulted in zero response from Redwing. The problem is, the assembly manual is available only on a tiny CD, which had two different CG locations on a different model, NOT the MXSR. The instructions for the MXSR do not exist on the CD. Those CG locations were three inches apart, and it was apparent neither was correct.

(Status update, Redwing responded by indicating my emails went into their "Spam Filter". Now, everything is good!)

I finally found the correct CG on the RedwingRC web page.
http://www.redwingrc.com/index.php?m...products_id=15

A flight followup will be posted after the maiden flights take place.

Take a look at the attached photos:


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Old 10-20-2013, 02:03 AM   #2
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Default Redwing MXSR Maiden Flight

Well, the maiden flights are over. And, this worked out to be a VERY nice combination.

The outside temperature was 54 degrees F (Welcome to Wisconsin!), winds were 8 to 15 MPH. The first take off run was about 30 feet, and an easy climb out at 45 degrees just kept on going. Second flight, this model will climb out at 60-70 degrees and keep going. Hard to tell, it looked straight up, but there was a 10 MPH wind blowing.

This model pretty much covers it all, loops, spins, hammer heads, and similar type commands were done without effort. The recommended CG of 5 1/8 inches from the LE was pretty much spot on, with inverted flight only requiring a very slight down elevator command. Dives from altitude was pretty much straight down.

The battery recharge time for the 10S2P A123 pack was around 12 minutes. That will increase to about 16 minutes when more flying time is added per flight.

As for the power system, here are the results from the Castle Creations ICE 80 Amp ESC download.

Peak current at start of takeoff: 80 Amps, 26.5 VDC at 6300 RPM
Current just before lift off: 67 Amps, 26.8 VDC at 6400 RPM
Current on a steep climb out: 69 Amps, 26.1 VDC at 6090 RPM
Current at level flight, full power: 58 Amps, 26.6 VDC at 6600 RPM

The peak watts came out to be 2163 Watts, peak motor speed was 6912 RPM.

Two flights were made, 5 1/2 minutes each, which used about 55% of the battery capacity.

At altitude, slowing down the model for a stall was a non-event. The model just slowed down, and got mushy, never dropping off on a wing. It was chilly out, but the Hacker motor was cold on landing, as well as the 10S2P A123 battery pack. No need to go to 11S2P on this model. Spins were instantaneous on entry, and also instantaneous on exit.

The servo triple rates were set to three positions, 50%, 75% and 100% of recommended values. After the first flight, the expo was set to 35% on all rates with the 75% servo throw. Might drop this off to 30% on the future flights. Also, with flying from a grass field, might go from the 3 inch wheels to 3 1/2 inch wheels. That will prevent using the wheel pants, but IMHO, those pants can cause problems while flying off a grass field.

This is a very nice model, definitely a keeper!


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Old 11-11-2013, 06:01 AM   #3
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Default Added the Redwing Models Wheel Pants

This model now has an even dozen flights on it, and each flight is getting better. The wheel pants were installed on the last three flights, and the results were decidedly negative.

Even with "Greaser" landings, the wheel pants are severely cracked, with paint falling off in batches. Other club members indicated these wheel pants looked like cheap plastic. Unfortunately true.

So, Redwing was contacted. Their response, They are aware of the problem, and have contacted the China supplier about the complaints. I am to contact Redwing again in January 2014 when they hope to have replacement wheel pants that use fiberglass, rather than cheap plastic.

Redwing has indicated that they will replace the pants at no charge.

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Old 11-11-2013, 07:51 AM   #4
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That's a sweet looking model!
Anyone running Lipos could find themselves with a real headache regarding the CG. A similar capacity LiPo pack will be about 300g lighter that the A123 pack, so that's going to mean most of that weight in lead. Might pay to oversize the motor if running LiPos?
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Old 11-11-2013, 07:56 AM   #5
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or run another 10oz of battery pack rather then motor or lead.

slow stock prop reversal. it flies! easily! 543 watt dual motor bipe slow stick. push-me-pull-you. 242 watt 3 channel slow stick. 365 watt mini ultra stick. 415 watt mini contender. 810 watt ultra stick .25e. 220 watt alpha 450 sport (retired).
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Old 11-11-2013, 12:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
or run another 10oz of battery pack rather then motor or lead.
Only problem there is that as the battery gets bigger in capacity it gets longer so much of the added weight ends up close to the CG, thus not being as effective in balancing the model.
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:35 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
That's a sweet looking model!
Anyone running Lipos could find themselves with a real headache regarding the CG. A similar capacity LiPo pack will be about 300g lighter that the A123 pack, so that's going to mean most of that weight in lead. Might pay to oversize the motor if running LiPos?
It looks even nicer now with the decals, and when I had the wheel pants on it.

Yeah, that 300g or 10.5 ounces lighter would have been a problem in this model. Maybe an 8000 Mah LiPo pack would be somewhat closer in required weight.

At any rate, 10.5 ounces extra weight doesn't make much difference in a model of this size.

As for me, I'd have to have three or four of those LiPo packs for a days flying. And that would be a few $$$$.

Nice to have those overweight, oversized, undervoltage A123 cells that can be recharged in 15 minutes or less with two of those Cellpro Powerlab 8 chargers on the two 5S2P packs in this model.

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Old 11-11-2013, 06:08 PM   #8
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She's a beauty for sure!
Wow, 76", that's a lot of wing. She doesn't look that big on the build table.

Did you have to double up on any of the servos? I see where some of the larger models gang several servos together on one control rod.

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Old 11-11-2013, 07:11 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by max2112 View Post
She's a beauty for sure!
Wow, 76", that's a lot of wing. She doesn't look that big on the build table.

Did you have to double up on any of the servos? I see where some of the larger models gang several servos together on one control rod.
Yeah
That is a very large model. Take a look at the attached photo, where the fuse is sitting on a 6 foot long table. Also, there is a one foot steel ruler in the photo.'

The Hitec HS 645MG servos are used on each aileron and each elevator half.units. One Hitec HS5625 servo is used on the rudder. Those five servos alone cost about $150 or so. Double the wingspan on these models to the giant scale size, and their cost skyrockets. Everything in this Redwing model came out of a two year old giant scale Cessna 172 that I got rid of. It only had about 40 flights on it, but it wasn't acrobatic, and was not fun to assemble and fly. So the only current out of pocket cost was the model itself.

Take a look at the prop in posting #2 in this thread. That prop is a 19X12 APC-E wide blade unit.

http://www.redwingrc.com/index.php?m...products_id=15

We have one club member that has a giant scale model that uses four servos ganged together for the rudder servo. That is a 120 inch wingspan model with a BIG twin cylinder gasser up front.

Funny, Hitec makes some really big servos for those robot functions. Some of them have over 1000 inch ounces of torque, with about 1/4 second rotation time. They are much larger than the standard servos we see at the hobby shops. Never have seen one of those servos at any of the giant scale meets around here.
http://www.servocity.com/html/spg795..._rotation.html


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Old 11-11-2013, 07:32 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
That's a sweet looking model!
Anyone running Lipos could find themselves with a real headache regarding the CG. A similar capacity LiPo pack will be about 300g lighter that the A123 pack, so that's going to mean most of that weight in lead. Might pay to oversize the motor if running LiPos?
Guess I could go to a Hacker A80 series, but as is, this model will easily do a 500 foot diameter loop. While running at about 150 watts per pound, its got enough power for my type of flying.

As for 3D stuff, this model would need a bit more power, but 3D is not my thing.

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Old 11-11-2013, 07:34 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Only problem there is that as the battery gets bigger in capacity it gets longer so much of the added weight ends up close to the CG, thus not being as effective in balancing the model.
Nice thing about those A123's. For those that build up their own battery packs, these cells can be assembled so it will fit in the available space in an existing model.

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Old 11-11-2013, 07:47 PM   #12
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For 3D you would probably be looking to trim a couple of lb off the weight too, I'm not sure how possible that would be? Interestingly the Redwing web site claims 10-11 lb range, maybe that's for the gasser with no fuel onboard, but even so it seems a little unrealistic?
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Old 11-11-2013, 08:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
For 3D you would probably be looking to trim a couple of lb off the weight too, I'm not sure how possible that would be? Interestingly the Redwing web site claims 10-11 lb range, maybe that's for the gasser with no fuel onboard, but even so it seems a little unrealistic?
Yeah
That 10-11 pound range suggested by the Mfg does sound a bit unrealistic. The bare model weighs in at 106 ounces. A club member has the same model, powered by a DLE30. This model, minus fuel weighs about 20 ounces less than my 13.8 pound electric version. With LiPo batteries, it would be an even match. But, my Hacker A60-5S motor has a bit more power than that DLE30 gasser.

Don't know why, but when I weigh everything before assembly, and again after it's ready to fly, somehow these danged giant scale models gain a pound or so of weight, from epoxy, and who knows what. That's happened on all four of my giant scale models so far.

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Old 11-26-2013, 04:03 PM   #14
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Nice thread and build! Looking good!

On the weight, E planes are always heavier as they are essentially weighed "wet".

However that does seem heavy. But we can't account for build on everyone. one guy put low bounce tiers on a plane that were 6 oz each! compared to the 4 oz per pair for stock. that's an extra half pound in wheels.

But based on the empty weight of 6.6 lbs, right about 11 is reasonable when gas

Plane empty 6.6
dle 30 gross 2.7
servos 6 - 1
battery, prop, tank, wires 1
= 11.3

I think our models we built of this came in about 11.5. the original weight was on the prototype that had a smaller wing (we changed a lot). I'll have them change that weight online. But it flies great with that big wing.

We have built an E type that 3ds great but our motor choice will not ROCKET it in the air. Will pull out of hover but wont' go vertical at near full speed. I know a lot of E guys like them to be rockets. But you do pay a weight penalty for sure.

Anyway, if you have any questions email us - I'm sure they can answer any questions you may have.
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:07 PM   #15
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By the way, if anyone is interested in doing an E build on one of our other planes let us know and we will maybe help you in the process if you can do a build thread on here.
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:13 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Redwing RC View Post
Nice thread and build! Looking good!

On the weight, E planes are always heavier as they are essentially weighed "wet".

However that does seem heavy. But we can't account for build on everyone. one guy put low bounce tiers on a plane that were 6 oz each! compared to the 4 oz per pair for stock. that's an extra half pound in wheels.

But based on the empty weight of 6.6 lbs, right about 11 is reasonable when gas

Plane empty 6.6
dle 30 gross 2.7
servos 6 - 1
battery, prop, tank, wires 1
= 11.3

I think our models we built of this came in about 11.5. the original weight was on the prototype that had a smaller wing (we changed a lot). I'll have them change that weight online. But it flies great with that big wing.

We have built an E type that 3ds great but our motor choice will not ROCKET it in the air. Will pull out of hover but wont' go vertical at near full speed. I know a lot of E guys like them to be rockets. But you do pay a weight penalty for sure.

Anyway, if you have any questions email us - I'm sure they can answer any questions you may have.
Thanks for the comments! As far as the bare weight of this model, mine came out to 106 ounces, or 6.62 pounds. (Pretty close.) As this model comes out of the box, it is quite strong, very beefy landing gear structure, and at the same time, quite light for a giant scale model.

The MXSR won't be flying for awhile now though. We got our first snow a few days ago, and it's not my idea of fun to fly a giant scale model when its below freezing outside!!

Replacing those heavy A123's with LiPos would have saved a bit over a pound of weight. But for me, the advantages of the A123's over the LiPos is worth it.

No, my model has difficulty doing a hover, but as indicated, that's not my thing. Being able to easily do a 500 food diameter loop is good enough for me!

For any other people interested in electrifying this model, it won't be cheap, but this worked out to be an excellent model for electric conversion.

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Old 12-04-2013, 02:15 AM   #17
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Nice! I am very close to pulling the trigger on the 30cc size SBach 342 and making it electric. I will use a Hacker A60 motor, 12S 5000 cells, and probably a YGE 120HV ESC. It would probably be about 12oz or so lighter than the A123 pack and still allow me to keep the weight close to the front. I would also likely move the tail servos up front to minimize weight in the back.

Now, if I could just get Redwing to respond to my emails!

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Old 12-04-2013, 02:41 AM   #18
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DWS , what email address are you sending to?

We usually are VERY prompt with emails (within 24 hours or less). However, we have struggled off and on for our tech quesitons (service@redwingrc.com) and I fear the guy we have doing that may be slacking again. This is VERY tough to do for some reason (which I'm surprised - I thought there would be a lot of younger guys who would like to get paid $10/hr or so to talk RC rather than work at McDonalds for less).

Anyway - if you don't get us at one email address please try another. We have 3 different divisions.

Warehouse or Info may be better currently

PS, we will be stocking hacker power systems VERY soon

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Old 12-04-2013, 02:57 AM   #19
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I don't remember which one I sent it to, but probably the tech questions one.

One of the other guys at our field (Belleville RC Flyers) over by Scott AFB bought a plane from you guys a couple months ago and I was very impressed by it and the way it flew. Since I live on the other side of town from you, I would love to just pick up a plane vs pay for shipping. Do you have the 30CC Blue and silver SBach 342s in stock? Any holiday deals going on? How soon will you have Hacker motor in stock?

Thanks!

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Old 12-04-2013, 03:06 AM   #20
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Hi DW

We do have it in stock. Sorry for the lack of response. Sure you can pick it up which will save you shipping and we usually do extra discount for local guys when possible.

Hackers should be in, in just about a week. this is the system we are stocking for 30ccs
A60-6XS Motor

Hacker X-110 Opto ESC

AM5000-6S30 Battery

APCE 20x11

Just email me at info@redwingrc.com attn tim
thanks!
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:05 AM   #21
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Sounds good! I'll shoot you some additional questions at your email address.

Appreciate the quick response.

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Old 12-04-2013, 05:59 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by DWS View Post
I don't remember which one I sent it to, but probably the tech questions one.

One of the other guys at our field (Belleville RC Flyers) over by Scott AFB bought a plane from you guys a couple months ago and I was very impressed by it and the way it flew. Since I live on the other side of town from you, I would love to just pick up a plane vs pay for shipping. Do you have the 30CC Blue and silver SBach 342s in stock? Any holiday deals going on? How soon will you have Hacker motor in stock?

Thanks!

D.W.
Ah, No
The Hacker A60-6XS motor would NOT be a good combo for a 12S LiPo battery. Running this motor with a 20X10 prop and a 12S LiPo battery would result in smoke. Very quickly. Predicted current is several hundred amps.

www.motocalc.com suggests that the 6XS motor with the 12S prop would turn a 12X6 prop at over 15,000 RPM.

Oooooops!
Just noted the 6S LiPo, not the 12S LiPo battery! The Hacker A60-6SX motor would turn that 20X10 prop at about 6000 RPM, pulling about 100 Amps. That's pretty high current for this motor, and motocalc predicts motor efficiency at only 79%. That means you get 420 watts of heat inside the motor itself.

A better match would be the Hacker A60-14L and your 12S LiPo. Motocalc predicts this combo will turn your 20X10 prop at 7500 RPM, pulling about 80 Amps and 3300 Watts out of your battery pack. That comes to about 450 ounces of thrust. With this, motocalc predicts a motor efficiency of 91%, a very good number.

Check out a Hacker A60-6S (NOT A60-06XS!) motor with an 10 cell LiPo battery and a 19X12 APC-E prop. This will pull about 75 Amps, 2500 Watts, and 89% motor efficiency. This will put out 380 ounces of thrust.

If you go to a 10S battery, I'm using a Hacker A60-16M with an equivalent 12S2P A123 battery pack, and a 19X12 APC-E wide blade prop that works very well on a 15.5 pound giant scale Big Stick.

IMHO, when you get to models of this size, it's a good idea to provide dual receiver power to your receiver. I've got several drawings on how to do it.

If this is your first high powered electric model, be danged careful with that motor. Take the prop off when running tests. Last month we had an accident at our club field, where a club member lost a half inch off of several fingers when he tangled with a 90 glow engines prop. These Hackers put out several times more horses than that 90 glow engine. And, these 2500 watt electric motors don't slow down when their prop hits something.
These 2500 watt motors look pretty small when compared to the size of the giant scale model they're bolted to. But believe me, they do put out a LOT of horsepower.

Take a look:
Giant Scale electric motors vs Gasoline Engines
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58035

Great Planes Giant Big Stick Electric Conversion
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65052

Giant Scale Cessna Model
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66414

Carl Goldburg Extra 330 Electric Conversion
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59273

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Old 12-04-2013, 11:37 AM   #23
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Denny,

Thanks for the info and links...I'll take a look at each of them.

I've been flying RC for almost 30 years and electric for 20+ so I'm pretty comfortable with staying away from the prop and other safety measures. I've also been flying a 700 size heli lately, so I've become more comfortable with the larger electric power systems. That's really why I am interested in using 12 cell packs, as I can share them with the heli. I could also use a few 6+3 cell combos I have with a little larger prop to try a 9 cell setup.

Thanks!

D.W.
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Old 12-04-2013, 09:25 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by DWS View Post
Denny,

Thanks for the info and links...I'll take a look at each of them.

I've been flying RC for almost 30 years and electric for 20+ so I'm pretty comfortable with staying away from the prop and other safety measures. I've also been flying a 700 size heli lately, so I've become more comfortable with the larger electric power systems. That's really why I am interested in using 12 cell packs, as I can share them with the heli. I could also use a few 6+3 cell combos I have with a little larger prop to try a 9 cell setup.

Thanks!

D.W.
Sounds good. Looks like you'd be looking at the Hacker A60-14L motor for your model and those 12S LiPos. This motor will turn a 20X10 prop at 7500 RPM using the 12S LiPos.

Take a look at the attached screen dump from the motocalc program. (That 4245 climb rate indicates this power system will haul your model straight up at some 45 MPH.)


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Name:	Hacker A60-14L.jpg
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ID:	172240 Hacker A60-14L and 12S LiPo

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Old 12-05-2013, 01:39 PM   #25
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It's nice to see a supplier interested enough to check the threads on their products.

That Blue/White 30cc Stinson Reliant SR9 is KILLER! I've got too many planes, but that one has me thinking. :^)
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