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Old 11-06-2013, 07:02 PM   #1
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Default Longe range High altitude Rocket boosted UAV

Hey all I'm A sixteen year old innovator and I have been studying RC jets and such for about four yrs. I also have ben studying rocket propulsion for the past month or two. I was wondering if any of you guys had heard of anyone ever sending a UAV above 30,000'? I was wanting to do this by getting a large jet with very efficent wing structure up too about 10,000' and then boost it higher via rocket propulsion.Any Ideas?
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:33 PM   #2
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Are your parents rich? Thats not going to be inexpensive to do. Plus they will need to be able to afford a lawyer to handle your criminal case.

What you're proposing is currently illegal.

You are required by the current law to follow the AMA safety rules when flying in US airspace. One of those rules is that you have to be able to see the model at all times. You wont be able to see it at 10000 feet and certainly not if its above 30,000. You also have to see and avoid full scale aircraft - which you wont be able to do if your model is above 10,000 ft.

If you dont follow the AMA rules, then you fall under the FAA UAS rules - which specifically prohibit what you are proposing to do unless you get prior approval, permits, etc from the FAA first.

There are criminal penalties involved.

Many other countries have even more restrictive rules about flying in full scale airspace and/or beyond line-of-site than the US has.

Also, you might want to keep postings about this off the internet RC forums, facebook, twitter, YouTube etc.

There are a growing number of rc people who do not want to loose their right to fly RC models because someone did something as reckless as what you are proposing to do. They are getting more and more upset by these kinds of stunts and are actively reporting the ones who do them to the FAA and local authorities.

Thats precisely the kind of stunt that can get laws passed banning or severely restricting ALL forms of RC flying - which is exactly what the FAA is trying to do now.

Please RC responsibly

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Old 11-06-2013, 08:04 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
Are your parents rich? Thats not going to be inexpensive to do. Plus they will need to be able to afford a lawyer to handle your criminal case.

What you're proposing is currently illegal.

You are required by the current law to follow the AMA safety rules when flying in US airspace. One of those rules is that you have to be able to see the model at all times. You wont be able to see it at 10000 feet and certainly not if its above 30,000. You also have to see and avoid full scale aircraft - which you wont be able to do if your model is above 10,000 ft.

If you dont follow the AMA rules, then you fall under the FAA UAS rules - which specifically prohibit what you are proposing to do unless you get prior approval, permits, etc from the FAA first.

There are criminal penalties involved.

Many other countries have even more restrictive rules about flying in full scale airspace and/or beyond line-of-site than the US has.

Also, you might want to keep postings about this off the internet RC forums, facebook, twitter, YouTube etc.

There are a growing number of rc people who do not want to loose their right to fly RC models because someone did something as reckless as what you are proposing to do. They are getting more and more upset by these kinds of stunts and are actively reporting the ones who do them to the FAA and local authorities.

Thats precisely the kind of stunt that can get laws passed banning or severely restricting ALL forms of RC flying - which is exactly what the FAA is trying to do now.

Please RC responsibly
Agreed:
If you still want to pursue this, there are rocket organizations that handle launching of large scale rockets.

I've watched several of their rocket meets, and they are impressive. But they sure as heck do NOT allow anyone to walk off the street and launch one of these big rockets. They demand you "Prove Your Abilities" in multiple stages from small rockets to the big units before they even give you a license to fly the big units.

These organizations also work with the local FAA and everyone else before they hold a giant rocket meet.

Getting one of these rockets over a mile high is not going to be cheap, and absolutely no one that is not qualified will ever launch one of these at their meets.

One place is:
http://www.tripoli.org/

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Old 11-06-2013, 09:46 PM   #4
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You misunderstood me. I don't want to use it for surveillance I want it for breaking through the atmosphere and possibly putting a sattelite into orbit. There is my real reason I am not attempting anything Illegal. I will petition for faa clearance when the time comes to launch this plane now can I get any help?
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:23 PM   #5
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First of all, I think some of us regulars can sometimes forget you don't have to be an AMA member to fly RC. (Yes, I'm AMA, and I like it, and the flying fields I get to enjoy because of it.) I'm concerned, too, when people overstep common sense and put our hobby at risk for a passing interest they may have. (cmccully, I don't know if this is just a passing interest to you. I'm referring to people like the guy in New York who almost crashed a quad on people probably just to see what it's like to fly a camera around.)

Having said that, getting a camera over 30,000 feet? Yes, but they've done it with balloons. But to put something into orbit? Are you Bill Gates Jr.??? What you're proposing is way out of most people's league here. First, most of us here fly electric, so there goes the turbines. And most of our planes (Not all!) can't even come close to 100mph, and some have difficulty flying in the high altitudes of Denver, so 30,000 feet and orbit are something we don't deal with, that's an understatement!

You say you've studied RC jets, do you fly RC at all? What kind of help do you think we could offer?
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:26 PM   #6
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Come to think of it, Burt Rutan was a model airplane enthusiast when he was younger, and he got planes to space. Not to orbit yet. Start with RC flying.
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Old 11-06-2013, 11:17 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by cmccully View Post
You misunderstood me. I don't want to use it for surveillance I want it for breaking through the atmosphere and possibly putting a sattelite into orbit. There is my real reason I am not attempting anything Illegal. I will petition for faa clearance when the time comes to launch this plane now can I get any help?
Rockets are how you get satellites into space - not RC aircraft. As pointed out you can get a small payload on the fringe of space with a balloon and several thousand dollars. Getting into orbital space takes major bucks and equipment. The rocket clubs might be able to help you more but don't think they actually launch stuff into orbit (even low earth stuff).

I have no idea what the regulations are either but suspect that there is control over items in orbit as they can pose a significant danger to the space vehicles and satellites.

Good luck!

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Old 11-07-2013, 12:40 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
Rockets are how you get satellites into space - not RC aircraft. As pointed out you can get a small payload on the fringe of space with a balloon and several thousand dollars. Getting into orbital space takes major bucks and equipment. The rocket clubs might be able to help you more but don't think they actually launch stuff into orbit (even low earth stuff).

I have no idea what the regulations are either but suspect that there is control over items in orbit as they can pose a significant danger to the space vehicles and satellites.

Good luck!

Mike
Yeah
The rocket launches I've taken videos of at the Bong Recreational Site in SE Wisconsin never came anywhere close to the altitudes you are looking at. If my fading memory is correct, they might have reached one mile straight up.

This Bong site is huge, some 4500 acres or so.

But, the announcer on their PA system indicated that the rocket engines alone have to be built by the modeler. You can't buy this stuff. The cost for the propellant on one of those flights was some $400. And, again, that was for just one flight.

Some of those rockets went supersonic. And, these rockets were many orders of magnitude more expensive than what is available, ready to fly.

These guys I met at Bong were very personable, and really liked to talk about what they had, and what they had to do to get there. As for putting one of these in orbit, there is a lot of stuff to consider to make that possible. And the first item is the expense. Like the value of a new home now days.


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Old 11-07-2013, 12:41 AM   #9
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Spam Scam Alert gents....


I mean really... this kind of post at our forum for Electric RC flight? Really? Don't take the bait gents.




There are far better places on the inter-web to get info on this subject than our little pack of RC Yahoos.

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Old 11-07-2013, 12:52 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Nitro Blast View Post
Spam Scam Alert gents....


I mean really... this kind of post at our forum for Electric RC flight? Really? Don't take the bait gents.




There are far better places on the inter-web to get info on this subject than our little pack of RC Yahoos.
Interesting comment. Just why did this fellow post on this site? Good question.

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Old 11-07-2013, 01:01 AM   #11
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Lets see IP links to Korea, C&M company. Who knows... you may be right...
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:21 AM   #12
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Well, I was leaning towards a troll, but I like to give a kid the benefit of the doubt until i've seen otherwise. Thanks Nitro.

Lol! My first response I decided against was 'Study hard, get good grades, go to a good college, then apply at NASA!
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Old 11-07-2013, 03:49 AM   #13
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these days i get the feeling if you type the wrong sequence of words...big brother will be listening and screening all your phone,emails and forum posts.

huuummmm,perhaps this was a trap........Naaaaahhhh,we are to much a goody2shoes group of RC enthusiast's. no threat at all to anything except to our RC planes.[i threaten my planes every time i fly].

cmccully,keep asking questions online about rockets capable of breaking earths orbit via build it yourself...someone is sure to come to your aid.....lol.






the nsa.

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Old 11-07-2013, 05:49 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by xmech2k View Post
My first response I decided against was 'Study hard, get good grades, go to a good college, then apply at NASA!
Yeah
That makes as much sense as any others posted in this thread.

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Old 11-07-2013, 02:15 PM   #15
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Hey all sorry been gone for a whole day. I'm not a troll and yes I do understand the risks involved with the FAA and banning rc flight forever. It is not a trap and I'm am not some government agent. I think it is possible with extremely high frequency transmitters and recievers. And I plan powering this with large EDF engines so It will be electric. It will probably have around 4-5 12v LiPo's onboard and I will post the SketchUp design on here as soon as possible.
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Old 11-07-2013, 02:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by cmccully View Post
Hey all sorry been gone for a whole day. I'm not a troll and yes I do understand the risks involved with the FAA and banning rc flight forever. It is not a trap and I'm am not some government agent. I think it is possible with extremely high frequency transmitters and recievers. And I plan powering this with large EDF engines so It will be electric. It will probably have around 4-5 12v LiPo's onboard and I will post the SketchUp design on here as soon as possible.
Yep - OK - you do know EDF's don't work in space right? You know they also don't work well as the atmosphere thins right?

Sorry - you are getting a great deal of skeptical replies as what you are asking is simply not viable.

So you ask for help - but you don't really listen. Want to get to space? That takes a rocket - not an RC EDF airplane. There is no commercial cheap option - as the costs are simply FAR too great.

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Old 11-07-2013, 03:32 PM   #17
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I think that with extremely high rpm brushless motors that it is possible or maybe even with just using a prop-based system where your have a very low pitch angle on the prop.
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Old 11-07-2013, 03:33 PM   #18
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Default I understand.

Yes I do understand that as the atmoshere thins they don't work as well that's why you need the rocket propulsion to get it out of the atmosphere.
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Old 11-07-2013, 03:34 PM   #19
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There is no air in space for the fan to use...

There is very little air in the upper atmosphere for the fan to use...

Think about it.

Sorry just got the 2nd post. So if your goal is space you get why a fan won't work. Good. So you on-board with the rocket yet?

EDF's are HORRIBLY inefficient even right down on the ground where the air is thick. Going up makes them worse - they simply won't work to get something into space. They use air to work. This is why the SR-71 could not use conventional turbofan engines - simply not enough air at the altitudes it traveled.

Whew....
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Old 11-07-2013, 03:45 PM   #20
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Yeah I get it... Do you think that a prop with a large lift ratio would work to get it pretty high. Basically the problem with civilian rocketry right now is that they don't get high enough. You see my theory is that if you can fly it up pretty high and then launch it it might just work.
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Old 11-07-2013, 03:53 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by cmccully View Post
Yeah I get it... Do you think that a prop with a large lift ratio would work to get it pretty high.
Nope - and certainly not higher than the amateur rocket guys!

Originally Posted by cmccully View Post
Basically the problem with civilian rocketry right now is that they don't get high enough.
Right and they are the "go high" crowd. Think about it if they are not making it...what makes you think a propeller is the answer where the air is thin and propellers DON'T WORK ANYMORE!

Originally Posted by cmccully View Post
You see my theory is that if you can fly it up pretty high and then launch it it might just work.
Nope air is too thin. The other issue - is the cold temps our battery's crap out. Even if you solve that issue - you have the cold issue. Our stuff simply can't put out the power unless completely insulated. Again more weight and complexity.

You are better off using a balloon (for cheap) and you can get pretty darn high. Check the youtube vids. Guys are getting way up there in a few thousand dollars. A few are doing pretty good on even less than that.

Do a google search - guys will tell you have to get way up with a balloon. Again - you can't reach space.

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Old 11-07-2013, 04:00 PM   #22
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Hey man I live in palestine i'm from montana. I think that It's possible still maybe even with a little help from weather balloons but maybe all we need is a little innovation and it could happen. Well I guess you see it on the news if I do it.
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:06 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by cmccully View Post
Hey man I live in palestine i'm from montana. I think that It's possible still maybe even with a little help from weather balloons but maybe all we need is a little innovation and it could happen. Well I guess you see it on the news if I do it.
Yep, do please, send us that link - when you make the news.

Sorry you can sense the skepticism but it is hard to get into space. I am first to recognize, without dreamers nobody would have done it. It is amazing that we put guys on the moon in the 70's. The calculations and science involved was nothing short of amazing.

Something not repeated even with our significantly greater processing power.

Don't let us dissuade you - but think of the science and the laws of physics as you go about your task.

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Old 11-07-2013, 04:36 PM   #24
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..................Glad I have an ignore button!
Bet it's related (rooted) to other recent rash of "comical" threads.....

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Old 11-07-2013, 05:07 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by xmech2k View Post
First of all, I think some of us regulars can sometimes forget you don't have to be an AMA member to fly RC. (Yes, I'm AMA, and I like it, and the flying fields I get to enjoy because of it.) I'm concerned, too, when people overstep common sense and put our hobby at risk for a passing interest they may have. (cmccully, I don't know if this is just a passing interest to you. I'm referring to people like the guy in New York who almost crashed a quad on people probably just to see what it's like to fly a camera around.)

Having said that, getting a camera over 30,000 feet? Yes, but they've done it with balloons. But to put something into orbit? Are you Bill Gates Jr.??? What you're proposing is way out of most people's league here. First, most of us here fly electric, so there goes the turbines. And most of our planes (Not all!) can't even come close to 100mph, and some have difficulty flying in the high altitudes of Denver, so 30,000 feet and orbit are something we don't deal with, that's an understatement!

You say you've studied RC jets, do you fly RC at all? What kind of help do you think we could offer?

The way the current law reads, if you are NOT at least following the AMA guidelines/safety rules, then you are subject to the FAA UAS rules.

You dont have to be an AMA member necessarily - in fact the AMA is not named specifically - but you do have to follow the "community based" rules - or else.

IF you are following the AMA guidelines, then you can fly RC just as we always have. Of course, local laws also apply - as in no rc flying in parks or what ever they happen to be.

IF you are NOT following the AMA guidelines/local laws/etc, then you automatically fall under the FAA UAS (Unmanned Aerial Systems) rules and must follow those regulations. They are far more restrictive.

Just because you are flying a parkflyer in your back yard and are not a member of the AMA, does NOT mean you can do what you want. The FAA has authority over ALL flying objects - RC as well as full scale AND rockets AND balloons.

The FAA has been ordered by congress to allow us to fly under our own set of "community based" rules. As long as we follow those rules, they will leave us alone. If we dont, then we are under the much more restrictive UAS rules.

You dont have a choice in this. Its the law that applies if you fly any kind of RC. The same rules include rockets and balloons.

In other words, the AMA guidelines have been given the force of law that they didnt have before as far as flying RC.

I'll look for some links to the current law on that. Its on the AMA website somewhere....

I think I need a signature.
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