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Old 12-01-2013, 04:20 PM   #1
vuoladodo
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Default $75.00 Build Contest: Polikarpov I-16 Project

Hello everybody.
I do a lot of depron building and for quite a while I have been eyeing the Polikarpov i 16 (Mosca).

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Finally I decided I will go ahead and start the process. Anyone is welcome to join and document their build as a build-off. The link to the plane is this:

I16 1 (formers).pdf
I16 2 (fuse skin).pdf
I16 3(wing left) .pdf
I16 4 (wing right).pdf


I took the file from a Polish guy who puts them online and enlarged it to get a 1.05m wingspan. These are the PDF's with for paper:




The first step will be to cut the firewall (4mm plywood) and the formers of the fuselage (2mm Balsa).


I took a cheap compass plased the sharp tip at the center and the lead on the permitrical line of former A (PDF 1) and marked the circle on the plywood. Next I will cut with a hand copping saw. Not today though.
Here are the pictures:


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Old 12-01-2013, 04:31 PM   #2
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Default Chapter 2 - Formers and Core

Chapter 2: Cutting the Formers.

So, I finally managed to get back to the Polikarpov. I took the plywood with the firewall marked on it and using a coping saw, I cut it and did some light sanding.

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I took two pieces of 100 cm x 2mm x 10cm balsa wood and glued them together along the long edge with crazy glue getting a 100cm x 2mm x 20cm board.

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This can accomodate now all the formers. So I cut formers B, C, D, E and F from the paper plan.

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Then I taped it to the balsa and marked each with a sharp B pencil. Then I cut each piece of balsa ending with 5 balsa formers (+ the plywood firewall).

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The paper plan calls for two formers per letter. I think I will add to each former a depron doubler. though I am not yet sure. Much depends on how i decide to resolve the skin in this project. As you can see in the plan, the skin is sectioned and attaches to each former. I am not sure how I will modify this, if anyone has any suggestions, I would love to hear them.

I taped together the print-out with the skin sections and cut them out.
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Then marked the center of the former's circle. Some of them are themselves circles like B and F and some others D and E, especially, have circles marked on them to show the point of alignment with other formers.


I then used the center point to mark a 2cm x 1cm rectangle and cut through it. Marked the end of each skin on a 2cmx1cm balsa and put the formers through. This is the placement of the fuse core.

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And then glued and reinforced:

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OK that's all for now.
VD


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Old 12-01-2013, 06:48 PM   #3
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Tip : When cutting circles - get hold of HOLE saw - type that fits into electric drill ....... cuts perfect circle and also you get a nice hole in centre for leads / fuel pipes etc.

There are variable size hole saws as well .. so even odd sizes can be catered for.

Nice subject .. like it.

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Old 12-01-2013, 08:22 PM   #4
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Thank you Nigel. That would have been the better way to go with that but I did not want to spend any money on tools.
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Old 12-01-2013, 10:05 PM   #5
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Interesting subject. You should enter this in the $75 contest. It certainly qualifies as
"seldom modeled".

It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
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Old 12-01-2013, 10:10 PM   #6
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That's a very cool plane. Good luck with the build!

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Old 12-02-2013, 02:53 AM   #7
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Definitely Enter your build in the $75.00 Build Contest, you will have 90 days to get R Done, maiden it with a Video of it flying.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72668

Just Add,***** $75.00 Build Contest **** in front of Polikarmov I-16 Project, to do that, go to your post #1 click on Edit then click on Advance to make changes. would love to see you in the contest, Take care, Chellie

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Old 12-02-2013, 09:09 AM   #8
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Hey Chelie,
Great, thanks. I just did though I am not sure I will be done in 90 days.
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Old 12-02-2013, 10:00 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by vuoladodo View Post
Hey Chelie,
Great, thanks. I just did though I am not sure I will be done in 90 days.
At the speed your building this plane, you will have it done in 2 weeks Take care and have fun, Chellie

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Old 12-02-2013, 12:58 PM   #10
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Hey there Vuoladodo Nice subject material, good luck with the build and flight.
Crash

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Old 12-02-2013, 09:19 PM   #11
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Default Charpter 3 - Empanage

Ok, so I decided to take on the empanage. I will first show you what I did and then I will offer you a few thoughts on the paper (to balsa and depron) conversion.

So, my first build ever was the Slowpoke from Great Planes.

My Old SLowpoke, no defunct.

In a way that build determined some techniques for me. For instance. I dont like building vertical sectioned fuses. The plane was built upside down with the fuse sectioned horizontally: build bottom then top. In addition, that plane started with the empanage. The horizontal stab and the vertical stab, then the rudder and elevator. In every plane I have built since, I have followed the same process. Build the horizontal stabilizer and then the vertical with the mast. So in building the empanage for the Mosca, I am essentially following suit.

Thus, I took the tail sections from the paper plan and cut them out from the paper. The I cut them in half separating the bottom skin from the top skin.
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Then I placed each half on another piece of 2.5mm balsa and cut two shapes for each and doubled them with crazy glue getting 5mm stabs and elevator.
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As you can see, the vertical stab is glued to the mast which will sit directly behind the smallest former (F). The width of the horizontal stab is now 44cm. The mast is 22cm. Now, it is the empanage that made me wonder if this conversion process is a good idea at all.

May well be my lack of knowledge about the build process. 5 years later I have to confess that I still feel like a newbie. All I fly is self made and all of it is depron mainly becuase i can build an envelope of a 1.7m plane for under 10 dollars and becuase if I want a Tiger Moth or a Polikarpov I can give it a try and if things go well, i may even end up with one.

In any case, the lack of proper plans in this plane to show you the skelleton means that many things have to be guessed. For instance the length of the vertical stab's mast and the with of the horizontal stab. Since the conversion would require to build the plane of formers and skins but without longers, it is difficult to get enough structural integrity. WHat I will do at this point is probably leave the skins aside and start applying longers once the empanage is up. We will see how this goes.

Warm regards from cold Berlin,
VD


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Old 12-06-2013, 03:17 PM   #12
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Default Chapter 3 - Fuselage

Ok, so I mounted the empanage and braced the bottom of the vertical stabilizer on top of the horizontal stabilizer. The vertical stabilizer is now glued behind and in front of the F former.
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Then I put longers running form the second former (B) to the end of the fuse. All crazy glue.

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That's all for now,
VD


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Old 12-06-2013, 05:23 PM   #13
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vuoladodo
Very nice but where is the Depron?
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Old 12-06-2013, 05:38 PM   #14
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Skin and wings. Very likely I will make the wing saddles with depron. My plan for the wing is ribs and core of balas and skins (top and bottom) depron. I will make the plane without any dihedral (living dangerously). I dont expect this to be a docile plane though the profile will be asymmetrical. The actual rib of the I 16 had a rather strange profile with the trailing edge pointing slightly upwards. I think.
Any opinions?
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:23 PM   #15
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Looks great! I can see this contest is going to be tough to judge! Good luck!
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:11 AM   #16
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In the early days of monoplane fighters there was a concern that they would not make good gun platforms due to significant trim changes with speed so in a dog fight it would be difficult (read even more difficult!) to keep the guns trained on the target. One solution was to put some reflex on the trailing edge as this limited the movement of the centre of pressure.
The I-16 used the TsAGI R-II profile at 16%
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The Hawker Hurricane did the same thing using the Clark YH profile (19% at the root) and in the opinion of many pilots it was a better gun platform than the Spitfire as a result.
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:56 PM   #17
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QUorerng, fantastic. Had no idea and it is truly remarkable. that the HH was a better platform than the Spi is quite something.

Hey, by the way, were you in RCHangout, ages ago?
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:34 PM   #18
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OK, things are starting to get complicated. What to do about the skins?
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:58 PM   #19
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Default Chapter (can't remember) -- depron, decks and mock tail.

So, have the longers set on the top of the fues and left the bottom opened to put in guts and miscellanea.

I set up a sort of brace for the firewall. It's not exactly square, which I realized only when i epoxied the firewall. It has something like a two or 3 degrees upward diagonal. So this will have to be corrected when I mount the motor. No idea yet what that will be.

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I then finished the longers that go between F2 and the Firewall. Only on the top side as well. Finally, I added the turtle deck (i think its called) and the sleeve that covers the vertical stab. Both made of depron. While most of the conversion has been quite difficult from paper to wood n depron, the sleeves turned out to be fairly way to make and put in place because how flexible the material is.

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Later,
VD


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Old 12-10-2013, 12:52 PM   #20
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Default Tail cone in depron.

Tail cone in depron, as the title says.

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:02 PM   #21
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Default Polikarpov I-16

Looks like a nice project and good build progress. I have been looking for ways to cut back on wood parts, especially plywood. The primary reason is weight gain, but there is also the cost issue. So far, the best way to cut back on wood weight and cost has been the method I am using, which I suppose is best summed up as foam rings on a build-over plug. Once the foam rings are placed and have the desired shape, thin bamboo stringers ensure they stay put. Once the thin foam skin has been glued on, the fuselage shell has to be split so it can be slid off the build-over plug. The build-over plug is made of 1/2" or thicker foam insulation board and is an investment piece that is little more than a profile build of the fuselage. Adding wings and other control surfaces is a matter of choice, but a straight forward process.

The construction method you are using is a very good, old school procedure, but tends to be a bit heavy compared to a build that is mostly foam. If you fly in windy conditions, a heavier build may be very desirable. That is a problem I have here - waiting for a calm wind day to fly a very lightweight RC airplane model. I haven't tried the gyro stabilized controllers yet, but it is said they can help cancel the influence of wind up to a limit. I have been building larger aircraft models since it is possible to fly in slightly higher wind speeds and still build very lightweight. Not sure I want to go with an eight foot wing span just yet, but what others have done has been very impressive with very slow air speeds and extremely light wing loading. I admit I marvel over large models that seem to float about with graceful, slow maneuvers.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:44 PM   #22
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Well, i have all sorts of thoughts about this. I have been trying different build combinations and--of course--it is all a give and take.
Generally speaking, wood always seems to make for more accurate measures. The depron--as much as I like it--tends to give you a craft that is, overall, more flexible and that means that in the long run, it morphs. That being said, depron is an incredibly versatile material. I did not quite understand your method but what I have been doing with depron is essentially treating it like balsa with one exception. I make formers and then instead of making longers I just make skins. I end up with very light planes that tend to behave quite well. I have several different envelopes including a V tail 1.70m glider made of depron which flies VERY well. What I like about the depron is that I can make it do a lot more things than the balsa and I buy massive sheets of 1.3m x 0.9m for 3 euros. I live in Berlin and that means that a lot of my flying is done in wind. I can say that all of my planes handle that quite well. Generally, however, I tend to prefer heavier planes because of the tracking characteristics of heavier planes. I am not talking about flying pianos though.

I have to admit that every few weeks I go to the local HS and think that I should finally get around to buying a PZ Spitfire or Stinson.


Oh, do you have a thread with your ding over plug build that I can see?
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:19 PM   #23
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Default And the last for today - Elevator(s) and Servo tray.

Moving step by step towards the plane. I sanded each side of the elevator and with a 3mm wire I made the axel for the elevator in the shape of a square U. Drilled a hold directly behind the last former (F) and through the mast of the vertical stab to put the rod through.

Then calculating the angle of the rod I hand drilled holes starting on the leading edge of the elevator sides running parallel to the skin. This was not fun at all. I punctured the surface in at least two places. Anyhow, I finally fitted the two sides and then installed them unto the plane with epoxy.

Last for today, I made a servo trade to go beweet formers B and C and placed the servos so as to mark the place where I would drill the formers to run the pushrods. That is now done.

SO here:
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:51 PM   #24
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Default $75 Build Contest - Ideas

Originally Posted by vuoladodo View Post
Well, i have all sorts of thoughts about this. I have been trying different build combinations and--of course--it is all a give and take. ... Oh, do you have a thread with your ding over plug build that I can see?
Yes, I am doing a show and tell with my $75 Build Contest entry - xP-55t Ascender variant. Started with a "build-over" plug made from a Titan toy glider fuselage and wanted to rotate the front half so the motor would set higher on the fuselage as a pusher. That means the front of the Titan has become the rear of the xP-55 variant. I am currently making a new build-over plug to fit the fuselage framework so I can apply the thin foam skin. The build-over plug is necessary so the foam rings and thin, round bamboo stringers cannot twist or warp while the thin foam skin is applied to it. The primary focus is to end up with a very lightweight, but strong fuselage so I can use less expensive RC gear and parts.

Of course there is another objective for future builds - larger models with very light wing loading. I don't plan to build wing spans in the 6 feet are longer range, but one day I might want to now that I have a nice transport trailer and a SUV with a large 5 liter engine that can handle the trailer. I have been admiring what some have done with thin foam and marvel over how slow and graceful they can fly. With my old eyes big and slow is a good combination.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:58 PM   #25
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Can you pass me the link to your show and tell thread? I think you should really try depron straight out and see how big you can go. IN fact, i have been thinking that I would love to build a giant. My building ambition though is to get a very rigid skin without having to go the glassing route which looks like an entirely different ball-game. My issue is that I have two left hands and that means that I need good techniques for precise cutting, etc.
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