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Old 11-27-2013, 07:35 PM   #1
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Default Failsafe ? What do you set it to ? What model ?

OK ... I'm not loking for what F/S is best radio or whatever .. I'm asking about what you set-up with your failsafe ?

Me - I guess I should look at my models more as I tend to stay with default which is closed throttle and last command at lost signal. I can set any control to any position and save that if I want to.

So there you go ... What settings do you make for your Failsafe and it would be interesting to know what type, size model ... does it alter your idea of what to set-up ?

My models ... from small fast pushers / EDF's through sunday sport flyers to 61 powered Biplane ... all default factory settings ... Closed throttle and last command at lost signal.

Why ? Partly laziness I have to admit ... and second as long as throttle closes - I think she's going to stall and fall out of sky whatever surfaces are set at.... we cannot over-ride that.

Part of the reason for this thread - is that maybe there are newbies out there who are unsure of what to set or are setting undesirable F/S settings ... good to know what others are doing.

It would also be good to know anyone who's actually had F/S work and what was result.


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Old 11-27-2013, 09:33 PM   #2
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I'm even lazier.I don't have f/s set at all.I guess I should really.
My thoughts would be throttle closed and maybe slight left rudder trim to set the model into a gentle circle.this would presumably develop into a spin eventually,so that the crash is at least within line of sight.
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:36 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by DHC Beaver View Post
I'm even lazier.I don't have f/s set at all.I guess I should really.
My thoughts would be throttle closed and maybe slight left rudder trim to set the model into a gentle circle.this would presumably develop into a spin eventually,so that the crash is at least within line of sight.
What radio do you use ? as it may be that you have F/S set by default and might be interesting to see what they do ...

Mines default - which is last command at lost signal, with my closed throttle. FrSky

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Old 11-27-2013, 10:05 PM   #4
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For most planes other than closing the throttle IMHO it makes little difference. If you lose signal completely and for an extended period then it's going to end badly regardless. The exception would be highly stable models such as trainers and some sailplanes and the like. They actually might fly perfectly well on their own, so setting fail safe to neutral with maybe a slight turn should allow them to gently descend 'freeflight style'.

I've also heard the argument that you should set failsafe with all controls to maximum deflection so that the plane instantly 'falls out of the sky', this ensures it doesn't fly away any distance which might put people or property as risk. The argument does have some logic.

As you know Spektrum full range receivers and I think many other brands automatically failsafe to the position set during binding. Fail at last command isn't an option. To be honest though it's hard to imagine any reason possible why anyone would actually prefer 'fail at last command' rather than fail at some pre-set position? I cant think of any advantage at all, which probably explains why most systems don't give any option.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:23 PM   #5
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As I said before ... Fail at last command IMHO is no worse than any other - withy throttle closed - the model will slow and stall out anyway ...

As I understand it - and I read through quite a lot of radio bumph before starting this thread - many radios do not take the position of sticks etc. as F/S on binding ... many actually take the default as "Fail at last command".

I can't offhand recall any I read that didn't have a F/S default on 2.4Ghz ... even my cheapo Heli radio- not a 9x- has a Last Command but closed throttle default that is unchangeable.

My aim is to find out what people actually set their F/S to ... and maybe a reason why they choose that ...

Not everyone flies 3D or carve the air aerobatics ... so I would assume F/S's would not be same ... that flight style might influence what is set.

When I think about my models .. I think with the high speed stuff - I would do closed throttle with full bank and pitch up ... to destroy any chance of fly-away .... but with a slow job .. I think closed throttle and let her settle into a slow stall ...

Dunno - over to you guys ...

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Old 11-27-2013, 10:36 PM   #6
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I don't think it's anything that enters most peoples mind to be honest. Most probably just take whatever default option the TX /Rx gives them, which for Speky (full range Rx's) would be bind position, which should be neutral sticks, throttle closed.

It is of course the receiver that dictates fail safe options, not the Tx. I note that my Align 3GX heli flybarless controller (which doubles as a DSMX receiver once satellite modules are connected) does give the options of 'fail to bind position' or 'fail at last command' which is something genuine Speky receivers dont offer. With a CP heli I thought the only important thing was to kill the motor (it's crashing anyway), so I picked fail at bind position and bound on throttle hold.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:44 PM   #7
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FrSky for example ... you bind and if you do nothing else is Last Command... default.

To set anything else - :

When signal lost in a short period, the receiver continues to try to search for the transmitter, at the same time, keeps the last command from transmitter, until a new command is received.

Failsafe:
Our receivers support all the failsafe function for every channel. Just do it as bellow:

After the receiver has been bind, press briefly the “F/S Range” button of the receiver, the GREEN LED of the receiver will flash twice, the failsafe is set up successfully.

If you do not need the failsafe function any more, just re-bind the receiver.
So once bound .. you set controls to whatever you wish .. and this goes for all FrSky Rx's whether 4ch or 8ch and all inbetween ... then press that button on RX ... with the flashes - tells you it's set.

The last sentence is actually misleading as in fact F/S is always set on FrSky ... it's just that it defaults to Last Command as in first sentence.

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Old 11-27-2013, 11:15 PM   #8
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F/S is always set on FrSky
In that case,I do have f/s,as all my tx's(3xFutaba and 2x9X Turnigy) are running Frsky.I didn't realize F/S on was a default setting on Frsky.
I mnreally should start reading instructions.
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Old 11-28-2013, 01:17 AM   #9
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"Failsafe" is one of the most misunderstood features.

It is NOT to save the model. It is to prevent or minimize damage the model might do to people or property it could hit.

The model is expendable, people are not. So you want the model to stay over the safe flying area in a case of total radio communication failure.

I set for 0 throttle (kill ignition if its a gasoline model) full up elevator and full rudder. This will spin the model which should have it come essentially straight down. A spin is also a relatively low energy impact compared to any form of straight line dive. Its also a relatively slow descent, allowing anyone in the way maximum time to avoid the falling aircraft.

You have to assume that: IF CONTROL LOSS WAS DUE TO COMMUNICATION FAILURE YOUR COMMUNICATION WILL BE UNRELIABLE EVEN IF IT COMES BACK.

"Brown-out" would also toss the plane into the spin condition. But brown-out is an indication of intermittent or inadequate RX power and should be seen as an indication of an immediate need to LAND THE PLANE.
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Old 11-28-2013, 06:09 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
The last sentence is actually misleading as in fact F/S is always set on FrSky ... it's just that it defaults to Last Command as in first sentence.
FrSky has it right. 'Fail in last position' is not a 'fail-safe'.

Fail-safe is by definition the feature that automatically moves to a pre-set 'safe' position on failure. Fail-safe is a definition widely used in engineering and without exception it means a system that will automatically move to a pre-set 'safe' position on failure, rather than one that just locks in last position.

The clue is in the words

The real debate is what position is most 'safe'. I totally understand where fhubar is coming from in setting to a position that brings down the plane but this could in the case of momentary signal loss cause a crash where failing to neutral position would give more time to recover signal and might easily avoid a crash occurring. What's really 'safest'? I honestly don't know.

Steve
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Old 11-28-2013, 06:14 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
"Brown-out" would also toss the plane into the spin condition.
Will it really 'fail-safe' in a brown out condition?
A brown out is caused my a loss of voltage to the receiver. If there is no voltage to the receiver then there is no voltage to drive the servos to fail-safe position. I dont see how it could work?
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Old 11-28-2013, 06:16 AM   #12
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There are known incidents where my form of failsafe would have prevented injuries and deaths.

For example:
Appx 5 or 6 years ago in Hungary a pilot giving a demonstration with an appx 150cc bipe had a "PCM Lockout" with "hold Last" as its failsafe settings. The plane was in a mild bank, slowly descending and went straight into the spectators resulting in multiple deaths and major injuries. Failsafe settings to kill the engine and induce a spin would have had almost 100% chance of causing impact before the plane got to the crowd.
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Old 11-28-2013, 06:49 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
There are known incidents where my form of failsafe would have prevented injuries and deaths.

For example:
Appx 5 or 6 years ago in Hungary a pilot giving a demonstration with an appx 150cc bipe had a "PCM Lockout" with "hold Last" as its failsafe settings. The plane was in a mild bank, slowly descending and went straight into the spectators resulting in multiple deaths and major injuries. Failsafe settings to kill the engine and induce a spin would have had almost 100% chance of causing impact before the plane got to the crowd.
I appreciate the post and brings to light aspects of F/S we should consider ..

Here's the translated report after the incident, there videos online ... basically its reported he was just completing a knife edge manoeuvre, considerable distance between flight line and spectators. :

The model flight club Szekszárd had organised past Saturday afternoon a flight show on the large former military airfield Öcsény.
As a Stefan W. of the DAeC Luftsport, federation Bavaria association flew his second flight he had a sudden and total loss of control on his aerobatics model Pitts S12 with four-cycle combustion engine (span 2.50 m, approx. 20 kg weight).
The fail safe funtion switched on at approximately 20 m height ; driven off by the cross-wind the model flew uncontrolled from the airfield to several hundred meters away into the crowd and impacted there.
It broke a panic off; a married couple was killed, four further humans was hurt.
The police drove off the unfortunate pilot in handcuffs.
Video material was broadcasted over a Hungarian television channel proved that he had flown the fastidious aerobatics program far from the spectators. Only after the loss of the control did the model turn in the crowds direction.
Stefan W. was convinced that only a substantial interference resulted in the complete loss of control. This interference was proven free of doubts the following Monday and again on Tuesday morning by the public prosecutor's office.
A Hungarian expert and the father of Stefan W, traveled with a scanner from Germany. - Stefan W.' s plane naturally uses 35MHz frequency. The European Radiocommunications Committee recommends all European Union states to reserve it exclusively for model aircrafts. Also Hungary is European Union member.
Overlapping of the frequency however was transmitted by a strong, regional Radio broadcaster in Szekszárd, in particular the channels 61, 62 and 63 were completely disturbed in the change.
The plane of Stefan W. works on channel 62.
On Monday evening the public prosecutor's office apologized officially with Stefan W. for the unfair treatment and returned his passport. A bail, about which the police wanted to negotiate after provisional release on Sunday, was no more an issue.
Which Radio broadcaster it concerns, which switches itself on so suddenly, has not been released by the Hungarian authorities.
Stefan W. is a very experienced model pilot, who won prizes with his demonstrations several times „Best OF show “. It was already his third time in Szekszárd . In order to prepare himself for the show, he had traveled one week in advance, and trained the days up to the Flight show. He was conscious that the Hungarian legislation is not a guarantee to unimpaired 35 MHz frequency.
Just to protect his valuable model, range tests with a light electrical model belong to his routine prior each flight day. He had not noticed the smallest disturbance during the entire entire week up to Friday afternoon and Saturday where isolated small interferences occured, up to the misfortunate flight.
- The flight line of the model flight club Szekszárd held the usual safety routine with the check of the frequencies and the delivery of the transmitters, however no scanner had been used.
Gerhard Wöbbeking Member of the executive committee that DAeC sport specialized group Modellflug
A sad story and hope it does not repeat. Trouble is with incidents like this, we can all say ... if this had been done etc. etc.

For us today - is a lesson to learn - what would be good general F/S settings .. any variances for type / style of model etc.

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Old 11-28-2013, 07:12 AM   #14
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The only variances I consider are small, light models where I might use hold last with exception of 0 throttle.

Just consider the potential impact energy. If you would be willing to have it hit yourself in an uncontrolled straight dive of 45 deg or steeper than you might not need to make it spin.

Also remember that no matter what failsafe settings you choose, if the RX sudden;y loses power, it can't move the servos and you will in effect have "hold Last" (with 0 throttle for most electric planes, but maybe held throttle for others) Because of this, for all of my larger gasoline and glow models I try to have some form of positive engine shut off in case of loss of RX power.

If you can't afford for the model to crash... you can't afford to fly it.
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Old 11-28-2013, 07:30 AM   #15
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FHH has introduced an interesting item ... how to put controls to good position if power is lost to Rx ...

Generally if that happens with Electric - it means shut down of motor anyway as ESC even if still powered will receive no signal and initiates idle. But rest of gear ?

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Old 11-28-2013, 08:01 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
FHH has introduced an interesting item ... how to put controls to good position if power is lost to Rx ...
There is no practical way to do that other than maybe a spring return throttle on i.c. models.
IMHO the best way to protect from power failure would be have a good quality dual redundant power system (not difficult to achieve), that way you keep control and dont need a fail-safe.

Far and away the biggest cause of RC models crashing is human error anyway, so IMHO unless you are doing display flying at shows with large crowds it's probably not worth getting too overly worried about fail-safe, as long as it kills power.
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Old 11-28-2013, 08:25 AM   #17
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Spektrum failsafe is also best achieved by RE-binding the RX AFTER the maiden flight. Why? Because the failsafe IS set during bind, and (given the examples - sailplane, glider, trainer, etc., etc..) the failsafe is much better served if the plane HAS been properly trimmed and the controls adjusted to the model (as in reversing of controls).

If you "bind" a RX and all of the control settings are NORMAL and all the trim settings are correct then it doesn't NEED re-binding. If on the other hand, the ailerons need reversing, then the RX certainly needs re-binding AFTER that is done, else if there is a failsafe situation - the ailerons WILL reverse during that occurrence AND the trims will be off too.

This simple little item might very well explain "odd" behavior of planes during a brown out - or - a failsafe of some kind.

Hillbille

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Old 11-28-2013, 10:50 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
There is no practical way to do that other than maybe a spring return throttle on i.c. models.
IMHO the best way to protect from power failure would be have a good quality dual redundant power system (not difficult to achieve), that way you keep control and dont need a fail-safe.

Far and away the biggest cause of RC models crashing is human error anyway, so IMHO unless you are doing display flying at shows with large crowds it's probably not worth getting too overly worried about fail-safe, as long as it kills power.
I never used any additional system, apart from battery Backer - MFA sold a little box that automatically switched power supply if main went down ... which I still have and do at times think about putting in my Glow Bipe ... a small 250mAh pack is all that's needed to back up ...

But I seem to recall that there was a box you could fit that detected power down and had enough capacitor energy stored to initiate a failsafe. Or something along that lines anyway. I also remember days of dual rx's where controls were split between two Rx's - particularly on very large models that LMA in UK had rules for if you wanted to fly anywhere public.

The mechanics of how you set F/S is not really the issue ... it's the actual settings I'm looking for ...

Is it better to have full control deflection so induce a total stall condition .. is it better to let model stall itself ... basically so far no-one except myself has said what F/S they set ...

I'm looking for what F/S you have set ...

Elevator
Aileron
Rudder
Throttle
Flaps
Spoliers
Pitch
Cyclic
Tail
etc.

Nigel

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Old 11-28-2013, 10:54 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by hillbille View Post
Spektrum failsafe is also best achieved by RE-binding the RX AFTER the maiden flight. Why? Because the failsafe IS set during bind, and (given the examples - sailplane, glider, trainer, etc., etc..) the failsafe is much better served if the plane HAS been properly trimmed and the controls adjusted to the model (as in reversing of controls).

If you "bind" a RX and all of the control settings are NORMAL and all the trim settings are correct then it doesn't NEED re-binding. If on the other hand, the ailerons need reversing, then the RX certainly needs re-binding AFTER that is done, else if there is a failsafe situation - the ailerons WILL reverse during that occurrence AND the trims will be off too.

This simple little item might very well explain "odd" behavior of planes during a brown out - or - a failsafe of some kind.

Hillbille
Hillbille ... think you may have missed the point a bit ... it's not the method of setting F/S ... it's more the actual settings you save for F/S ...

As in FrSky - I bind and then set all Tx controls at the positions I would want F/S to take ... then press the button on Rx. That locks into the Rx the F/S settings to replicate the Tx settings I had. That includes ALL controls - not just the 4 on the sticks.

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Old 11-28-2013, 11:00 AM   #20
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Most Rx's in fact when lose signal - if they do not initiate a F/S do not cause servos to hunt as in the old days ...

I can remember early days of MHz radios and if the Tx wasn't on ... all the noise and spurious signals around used to be picked up .. servos would hunt or jitter as the Rx didn't have lock-out.
Nowadays 2.4Ghz is a little bit better as I believe ... no signal - no movement ... all I've ever seen is a kick on one or more servos as Rx fails to get signal - but that kick is a momentary thing and servo is back to immediately to rest position.

Hillbille posts the Spekie way of re-binding to modify F/S for that model ... to be honest in terms of default F/S - that is not really any different to other radios - just means different way of doing it.

So back to What settings you put F/S to ?

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Old 11-28-2013, 11:10 AM   #21
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Throttle cut, Slight up elevator, slight aileron turn, Wheels down if you have retracts.
I have climbed to a great height and switched off to make sure it worked OK which it did.
This gives time to switch back on and reinitialize safely. (FrSky)
If not enough elevator or turn, I land and adjust till I'm happy.
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Old 11-28-2013, 11:23 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Panther View Post
Throttle cut, Slight up elevator, slight aileron turn, Wheels down if you have retracts.
I have climbed to a great height and switched off to make sure it worked OK which it did.
This gives time to switch back on and reinitialize safely. (FrSky)
If not enough elevator or turn, I land and adjust till I'm happy.
That's appreciated ...

Question if you don't mind ... why Wheels down ? I would have thought wheels up to try and minimise wing damage ?

You're cool to switch off !! Dunno if I could get myself to do that in the air ...

FrSky - that is an advantage though as it's near instant lock-on recovery of Rx .... reckoned to be one of the fastest ...

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Old 11-28-2013, 03:54 PM   #23
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Actually wheels (gear) can absorb a lot of shock whereas if a wingtip touches first it will spin and flip. Anyway, that is what I do and the behaviour of the plane when I switch off gives a good indication of what really will happen. I don't believe in the "last command' as you could have been in a tight aileron turn. I certainly don't want my plane to revert to that in the event of signal loss. Cheers
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Old 11-28-2013, 05:38 PM   #24
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Full up, full rudder, stop the prop... other controls vary by the design of the aircraft. Whatever will make the plane move the slowest.
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Old 11-28-2013, 06:13 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Question if you don't mind ... why Wheels down ? I would have thought wheels up to try and minimise wing damage ?
Problem with setting gear up would be that if you ever inadvertently turned the Tx off before the Rx, or turned the Rx on before the Tx (yeah I know you shouldn't but it happens) then the gear would collapse

PS.. I set fail safe to neutral on all surfaces with closed throttle, but other than making sure the throttle is closed it's not something I am overly concerned about. For a heli I use throttle hold rather than closed throttle stick.
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