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Old 01-17-2014, 01:02 AM   #1
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Default Patriot 40 conversion

I picked up a Patriot 40 kit at a auction this past summer for a price I couldn't pass up, and I thought the plane looked cool. This will be my winter build project converted to electric of course.

I started on this during the week and have the tail feathers built, and almost ready for sanding. Have to admit the balsa in this kit is real nice which will help a lot. Lot of shaping and sanding to do, and the soft balsa will be a treat to work with. It doesn't look like I will have to replace any balsa like I did with Sig kit last year.


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Old 01-17-2014, 01:09 AM   #2
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The stab is sheeted with 1/16 balsa and glued up the skins, last night. After sanding the edge for a tight fit they where ready for some glue. Used blue tape to hold them together, and added glue to the joints. Then laid them flat wiping up any excess glue with a wet paper towel.


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Old 01-17-2014, 07:33 AM   #3
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Looking Great so far Gramps Dont forget that I get to do the Maiden Flight on it LOL

I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 01-17-2014, 01:14 PM   #4
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Looking good Gramps. I often thought this would make an excellent e-conversion and they fly wonderfully.

Mike
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Old 01-18-2014, 01:38 AM   #5
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Chellie No problem this should be a fast plane If I figure the power system right.

Mike as soon as I saw this kit my thoughts where the same electrocute it. Doesn't seem to be many builds on a conversion for the Patriot hope I do it justice.

Between flying today and getting new glasses courtesy of a 6 month old grandson he's a grabber!

I installed the torque rods and hinges with a dry fit for the control surfaces. Then it was onto the sanding and shaping for the rudder, and stab.

I was nervous about the throws on the stab at full deflection they where touching where the clevis are threaded on, and slight binding when fully deflected down . This uses 1 servo with 2 push one for each side of the stabilizer . Well I jumped to the back of the book for the throws found out the max throw is only 5/16". I am safe the way the way they are I can get 3/4" throw out of them. Happy me.

Well step 1 and 2 are done rudder and stabilizer complete. Now it is onto the either the wing or fuselage. I think I will get the panels glued up for the fuse first then devote the bench to the wings.


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Old 01-18-2014, 05:04 AM   #6
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Hi Gramps What motors do you have laying around for it

Here is some suggestions. AXI 2826/12 on 6 cells with a 9x9 prop and 60 amp esc, there wont be a 46 nitro that can touch you, unless they have a race motor with a tuned pipe
http://www.hobbyexpress.com/brushles...32982_prd1.htm

I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 01-18-2014, 06:05 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Hi Gramps What motors do you have laying around for it

Here is some suggestions. AXI 2826/12 on 6 cells with a 9x9 prop and 60 amp esc, there wont be a 46 nitro that can touch you, unless they have a race motor with a tuned pipe
http://www.hobbyexpress.com/brushles...32982_prd1.htm

Now, this is a real surprise.

This AXI motor goes for $120, and if you need the radial mount, that's another $17.

The similar sized A40-12S Hacker motor goes for $105, and it INCLUDES the required mounting and both front and back type propeller adapter hardware.
https://www.aero-model.com/8_67_892/...-12S%20V2.html
(I've got two of the A40 motors.)

Whats more, according to motocalc, the Hacker will turn the 9X9 prop at 15,000 RPM and do it at 91% efficiency while pulling 51 Amps. That is 1000 Watts on the prop shaft. The AXI will turn the 9X9 prop at 12300 RPM and do it at 72% efficiency while pulling 38 Amps. That is 760 Watts on the prop shaft. (The winding resistance of that Hacker is 1/5th that of the AXI motor. AXI is 0.062 Ohms, the Hacker is 0.012 Ohms.) The Hacker site does recommend 3-5 S LiPos though.

Motocalc suggests the AXI will run hot. Motocalc did not list problems with the Hacker.

Question:
What is the wingspan/wing area/estimated weight for this model?

From what I could find, it's some 6 pounds or so. If this is correct, putting a five ounce motor on it might be a little light. ??

DennyV
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Old 01-18-2014, 06:37 AM   #8
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Good find Denny the hacker A40-12S Hacker motor can take a 6 cell lipo with a smaller 9x9 prop, its kv is 600, so its not being pushed that much, the Axi motor info I got off the net, its a tried and proven power system. its not going to be used WOT all the time, it will be to fast for that LOL

I may be getting Older, But I Refuse to grow Up I am Having to much Fun to Grow Up LOL
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Old 01-18-2014, 01:31 PM   #9
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Air craft is having a sale on hyperion motors http://aircraft-world.com/shopdispla...que+outrunners

I bought this one the one best part with shipping it is only 45.95 I should have it in today or Tues. Most of the guys that have ordered from RA have been getting their packages in about 7 days from Japan.
http://aircraft-world.com/shopexd.asp?id=5594

Denny the wing area is 524 sq. inches span is 47 swept wing wgt. is 5.5 to 6 lbs. this plane from what I read needs ground speed before it is ready to rotate for take off. From what I have read a 9" prop makes it even more of a challenge to take off unless it is a paved runway.

Denny if you have time and can run that Hyperion through motorcalc here is the data sheet for it. See what you come up with. http://aircraft-world.com/prod_datas...z40/z40all.htm
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Old 01-18-2014, 05:24 PM   #10
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finally subscribed to this build gramps,I've been following along and really am interested in the patriots fuse construction. this bird has some really nice lines and should fly fast with all these great suggestions for power sources.

what i love about following build threads besides the builders progress ,is the info of sales going on and then learning more about products i always thought out of my price range. that axi would have fit nice in the RV-4 and the hacker was also competitive to the affordable. I'm beginning to think the eflight power series motors I've come to trust so well could have been axi's or hacker's instead......,i'm also sure the efficiency of those brands are better than eflites. oh well,hind site is 20 20 vision.

thanks for sharing this build with us john,looking good! stu

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:20 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by gramps2161 View Post
Air craft is having a sale on hyperion motors http://aircraft-world.com/shopdispla...que+outrunners

I bought this one the one best part with shipping it is only 45.95 I should have it in today or Tues. Most of the guys that have ordered from RA have been getting their packages in about 7 days from China.
http://aircraft-world.com/shopexd.asp?id=5594

Denny the wing area is 524 sq. inches span is 47 swept wing wgt. is 5.5 to 6 lbs. this plane from what I read needs ground speed before it is ready to rotate for take off. From what I have read a 9" prop makes it even more of a challenge to take off unless it is a paved runway.

Denny if you have time and can run that Hypieron through motorcalc here is the data sheet for it. See what you come up with. http://aircraft-world.com/prod_datas...z40/z40all.htm
Yeah
I ran this 4020-08 motor through motocalc. That claimed winding resistance of 0.0068 Ohms is pretty good, even beating out the same sized Hacker A40-8L motor by a few percent. Hopefully Hyperion uses actual measurement, and not some calculated value on all of their specs.

Motocalc indicates that running this 4020-08 motor on 6 LiPo cells will be pulling about 90 Amps, turning that 9X9 prop at 18,000 RPM. And, fry the motor in the process.

Motocalc indicates running this 4020-08 motor with that 9X9 prop on a 5 cell LiPo would be a good combination. Results are 68 Amps, 1180 Watts, 90% efficiency, 15,200 RPM, 82 ounces thrust, and 130 MPH blade pitch speed. Rate of climb comes out to 2200 feet per minute at 60 degrees. That also comes out to 220 Watts per pound, a very high number that should go like a bat out of heck. It will probably climb out straight up and keep on going. Motocalc also indicates this 9X9 prop will be stalled until the model hits about 25 MPH. (I'm running 19X12 APC-E props on my Hacker A60's, and again that prop is stalled at full power on the ground. You can hear it, hear when the propeller starts to "bite" into the air as the model accelerates.)

That motor looks pretty good. Let us know how it works out, and how close motocalc is to the real world on your motor.

DennyV
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:14 PM   #12
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gotta watch this one go together
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:22 PM   #13
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Denny thank you for doing this my gut feeling on this motor looks like it paid off. I didn't get it today, but I am far from ready for mounting and testing this setup. So I should be able to go up to a 10" prop no problem on a 4c battery my flying site is not the greatest to fly high speed models at. It's the way we have to come in for a landing that makes it tough to slow down. Denny gave ya a click of the thank you button.

Just from you three posting here what is it about 60 plus years of modeling experience? I'm the babe here with only 8 for RC and about 6 looong time ago years with U control.

Stu I think this is the best part of build threads we all learn something from them whether it is intended or by accident welcome a board.
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Old 01-19-2014, 01:46 AM   #14
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Hey fhhuber welcome to the build. Just to give you a heads up I can be real slow at building.

Well I decided to start on the fuse tonight needed to glue this up first four pieces of balsa makes up one side. Nice interlocking pieces little touch up with the sand paper and a nail file for the locking tabs and they are setting on the bench waiting till the glue sets. Tomorrow I can start putting the bulk heads in and figure out the battery compartment. Figure if I get this done first I can move on to the wings. Then work on the fuse on a card table for the servos, and what not while the wing is gluing up.


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Old 01-19-2014, 02:46 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by gramps2161 View Post
Denny thank you for doing this my gut feeling on this motor looks like it paid off. I didn't get it today, but I am far from ready for mounting and testing this setup. So I should be able to go up to a 10" prop no problem on a 4c battery my flying site is not the greatest to fly high speed models at. It's the way we have to come in for a landing that makes it tough to slow down. Denny gave ya a click of the thank you button.

Just from you three posting here what is it about 60 plus years of modeling experience? I'm the babe here with only 8 for RC and about 6 looong time ago years with U control.

Stu I think this is the best part of build threads we all learn something from them whether it is intended or by accident welcome a board.

Thank you!

Yup, I'm officially an old geezer. Built a half dozen control line models, powered by various engines, including a Fox 35 back in the early 1960's. In 1964, I was flying RC with what was called a galloping ghost servo system. This system continually moved the rudder and elevator back and forth several times a second, and the average of where the rudder and elevator were determined the flight. I modified the transmitter with some circuitry that allowed joystick operation. Got one season of flying with it. But anytime anyone with a CB turned on within 5 miles, the model crashed.

Picked up a Microavionics proportional radio in 1966, used. Cost some 6 months rent.

The first electric models were motors I rewound from work to power a sailplane. Most they ever did was about 250 watts input on 12 Nicad cells. Getting the model up to about 200 feet before the motor melted was a real good day.

Then, picked up four or five of the Astroflight brush type motors that were several times more powerful than what I had.

Now, you can buy a much more powerful brushless motor at 10% of the cost of those geared Astro motors. Things have really improved.

DennyV
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Old 01-19-2014, 02:49 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Yeah
I ran this 4020-08 motor through motocalc. That claimed winding resistance of 0.0068 Ohms is pretty good, even beating out the same sized Hacker A40-8L motor by a few percent. Hopefully Hyperion uses actual measurement, and not some calculated value on all of their specs.
They are exceptional motors - few will best them. They use real Japanese bearings, higher quality stators and very high quality magnets.

I may pick up a few on super special!

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
At these RPM's, DO NOT use those APC-E electric props, they are not designed to run at these propeller speeds.
Ummmm nope. That is not correct. The APC'e's are good to 145,000/Prop Diameter. So the 9" is good to 16,111 and you won't get to that in use. Plenty safe - and they are much more efficient than the glow.

http://www.apcprop.com/v/html/rpm_limits.html

Better than that is the Xoar but they are limited and they don't have many square or over-square props.

Thanks Gramps - didn't know aircraft world was running such a great sale!
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Old 01-19-2014, 02:54 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
They are exceptional motors - few will best them. They use real Japanese bearings and very high quality magnets.

I may pick up a few on super special!



Ummmm nope. That is not correct. The APC'e's are good to 145,000/Prop Diameter. So the 9" is good to 16,111 and you won't get to that in use. Plenty safe - and they are much more efficient than the glow.

http://www.apcprop.com/v/html/rpm_limits.html
Oops

Should have checked APC limits before putting that in the thread. Just took it out of the posting.

And, agreed: they are much more efficient than glow, having tried both APC and APC-E's of the same size on the same motor and model setup awhile back.

DennyV
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Old 01-19-2014, 03:01 AM   #18
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Thanks Gramps - didn't know aircraft world was running such a great sale![/QUOTE]

Glad to help out they seem to be a reputable company. These motors from what I read are being discontinued. They have a newer version of them on the market, so once there gone there gone.

Denny I am stepping back in time. A club member who is getting out because of age and health gave me a plane set up with a belt drive astro motor. He ran it on 16 cells. He told me the thing scared him with all the power it puts put, and pulls the 6' wing span plane no problem. I am looking forward to flying this once I have time to go over it.
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Old 01-19-2014, 03:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by gramps2161 View Post
Denny I am stepping back in time. A club member who is getting out because of age and health gave me a plane set up with a belt drive astro motor. He ran it on 16 cells. He told me the thing scared him with all the power it puts put, and pulls the 6' wing span plane no problem. I am looking forward to flying this once I have time to go over it.
LOL
I had one of those belt drive Astro motors. If you hit the throttle rather than slowly ramping up the motor, that belt blew out. Good luck in trying to replace it.

The unit I had was an Astro 15, heavy as heck. A similar weight brushless motor would put out three or four times more power on the prop shaft, and do it with less watts into the motor.

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Old 01-19-2014, 03:24 AM   #20
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Ya I have to give it one flight with the old setup before I switch it out. And your right about wgt. the nose is so heavy he had the 16 cells mostly behind the CG. the plane is scratch built kinda looks like a Pete and Poke. He's a great builder and all his planes where scratch built.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:16 AM   #21
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Well I have the fuse done as far as I can go until the wing is ready. The planes have you gluing on the stab next, and I can not do that until I can mount the wing to make sure the two are lined up nice.

This is a nice kit to put together, and so far the wood has been great nice and light. Surprisingly everything is still straight after all these years sitting in a box.


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Old 01-23-2014, 01:41 AM   #22
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I did a little bit more mounted the wing hold down, also went ahead and got the servo tray glued in place.
Plus tonight I glued in the firewall seems my 15 minute epoxy has decided to transform it's self into 5 minute epoxy stuff is only a year old. Glad it was a quick and easy piece to put in place..
The only difficult part of the fuse was getting the 3/4 round glued to the top corners of the fuse. Even this wasn't too big after doing some saw kerfs to help with the bending around the curve.


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ID:	173057 Wing holdown plate glued in place
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ID:	173058 Fusealage top ready
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ID:	173061 Assembled and waitng on the wing
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ID:	173062 3/4 round glued down one side doing some saw kerfs to help bend to fit the front curve on fusealage
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:08 AM   #23
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Excellent work man. Looking good.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:48 AM   #24
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+1, ditto that!!

nice build gramps.

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:52 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by gramps2161 View Post
I did a little bit more mounted the wing hold down, also went ahead and got the servo tray glued in place.
Plus tonight I glued in the firewall seems my 15 minute epoxy has decided to transform it's self into 5 minute epoxy stuff is only a year old. Glad it was a quick and easy piece to put in place..
The only difficult part of the fuse was getting the 3/4 round glued to the top corners of the fuse. Even this wasn't too big after doing some saw kerfs to help with the bending around the curve.
Nice!

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