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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 10-17-2014, 07:14 AM   #1
Suprawill1
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Default Freewing 70mm F-16

Hello All,
Just purchased the 70mm F-16. Stock set-up is as such:

70mm EDF w/2750 outrunner 6 blade rated at 950g thrust
45A brushless ESC
4S 2200 20C lipo

I want to upgrade to a 10 blade for the sound. If I can get an increase of performance too, that would be a plus. I heard that the 10 blade under like circumstances would give me the whoosh sound that I'm looking for but would decrease the performance a bit because of a heavier load.
At that point, I wouldn't be opposed to going to a more robust motor.
I had my eye on a couple of EDF 10 & 11 blade units that range from a 3300kv to 3900kv powerplant, still keeping the 4S battery.
I know these next figures are max projections and may only happen at optimum circumstances. The brands range from:

Change Sun
Cyclone
RC Lander
Dr Thrust

They all hover around 3.5lbs of max thrust. The stock set-up shows a max of 2.1lbs. With that said, I'm guessing I will overshoot the stock figure with any of these upgrades, even if I got 1lb less than their max projections.
If anyone has personal experience with like set-ups and can enlighten me to whether my predictions are close or not, please let me know your thoughts.

ESC:
I am planning for future upgrades with an abundance of headroom by going with a 100A ESC.

Battery:
The upgrades are recommending 35-45C discharge rate. I'm also going to overkill with 60C. As far as the amperage, none of the brands make a recommendation. I didn't want to overkill in this regard because of weight concerns. (stock fly weight is 2lbs) With stock recommendations being 2200mah, I was going with a 2600mah.

I know that equates mostly to flight time but will this also have an effect on battery draw because of the higher amp draw from the motor?
Am I in the right ballpark with the rest of my figures?
Thanks for your thoughts!

Will
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:32 AM   #2
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Hobby King cant Even give away there 70mm with a 11 blade rotor and 3900kv motor, it just draws to much amps, and Puffs Lipos about the biggest you would want to use on a 10 Blade fan is a 3300 or less Kv motor. Normally the less rotor blades used, will give better speed and draw less Amps, I will be using a 5 blade rotor on my Freewing 70mm EDF, for speed and less amp draw. I would think that the 10 blade rotor with a 3900kv motor would be about the same as a 11 blade rotor with a 3900kv motor. and puff lipos with a 3900kv motor, a 5 blade rotor would be a better choice.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...0watt_4S_.html


Overall Rating

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3 likes Value Quality Like it?
Dr. Mad thrust must have been sniffing the ole Either when he came up with this motor, cause it blows!! It's hot , slow, and puffs your packs. They should call this thing the "Pack Puffer". Why 11 blades?!?! 10 are too many for this motor it needs more like 5 blades. Don't waste your money or time with this one, unless you plan on wasting your money on buying a motor that can turn a 11 blade fan, or want to buy a new fan with it. I tried 2 different ESC and different timing configurations all with no luck. I've come to the conclusion this is just a bad rushed design. I would give it 0 crowns if it would let me. I should have trusted the other comments first. I've looked up the motor they used for this design, and everyone that is using it has a 5 blade fan with it!!!! Why they would use a 11 blade one is beyond me. Max RPM 62,000, yeah right! Fix this Hobby King!!

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Old 10-17-2014, 07:33 AM   #3
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Welcome to Wattflyers Suprawill1

with EDFs its best to use a Lipo with a 40 or more C rating, EDFs draw a lot of amps. best to use a ESC thats 20 to 25% bigger than whats needed.

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Old 10-17-2014, 09:18 AM   #4
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Thanks Chellie!
I saw that post too but I've seen bad posts about good products so it's good to have that second opinion.

So, with a 2600mah 60C lipo, that should be good either with stock set-up or with an upgrade with a lower blade count?
By the sounds of your suggestion, I would probably keep the stock 6 blade and opt for a 3300kv motor if I were to upgrade.
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Old 10-17-2014, 12:33 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Suprawill1 View Post
Thanks Chellie!
I saw that post too but I've seen bad posts about good products so it's good to have that second opinion.

So, with a 2600mah 60C lipo, that should be good either with stock set-up or with an upgrade with a lower blade count?
By the sounds of your suggestion, I would probably keep the stock 6 blade and opt for a 3300kv motor if I were to upgrade.
a 6 blade and 3300kv motor and 4 cell 2600mah 60C Lipo sounds very safe, I would use a 60 amp ESC, If you dont have one already, get a Wattmeter to check on your amp draw, so you dont Toast anything thats a nice powerful lipo, 2600mah or 2.6 amps X 60C = 156 Amp Battery plenty of power, I will be using a 60 AMP ESC with my EDF, I have a 5 blade 70mm with a 3000kv motor, I might even be able to get away with a 5 cell lipo, but I will be using a 4 cell lipo for now, I am Building a EDF flying wing for a contest here on Wattflyers, it will have a 40" W/S, wish me luck Join in the contest if you like Whats funny, is that the shipping fom HK to the US is cheaper than buying the Hobby King Product from the USA Warehouse to a USA address

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arch=wattmeter

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74645

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74592

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Old 10-17-2014, 01:09 PM   #6
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( Quote )
Hello All,
Just purchased the 70mm F-16. Stock set-up is as such:

70mm EDF w/2750 outrunner 6 blade rated at 950g thrust
45A brushless ESC
4S 2200 20C lipo


Looking at these specs, I bet you would be able to use a 5 cell lipo, with the lower kv of the motor, 2750 kv, but you would have to use a larger ESC, of at least 60 amps. here is where a Wattmeter is a must Have to Check the amp draw.

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Old 10-17-2014, 01:09 PM   #7
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Suprawill,

I have a squadron of edf's including 70mm, 64mm, 50mm and 80mm. I get turned heads especially with my FW 80mm A6 Intruder. Anxiously awaiting the release of the F5. Have a few low blade count setups that still sound like vacuum cleaners.

So yes, you'll get the swoosh wet turbine sound from the high blade count edf's though they need an optimal setup of motor and fan unit to work as well as the low blade count setups. Not every combination of motor and fan work well together as I found out. The 5-6 bladers are more efficient but this negative can be overcome if you're willing to spend a little extra. Check out Don's Wicked. He has a good line-up of motors and fan combos. Mercury from Taiwan has a killer setup with an alloy fan. A bit pricey though. The best of the best are HET.

The stock Freewing and FMS motor / fan combos are okay but not great.

Also vitally important that the fan be balanced. If you have a dynamic balancer like the Vortex, fine. Otherwise, have someone do this for you. Don from don's wicked charges $10.00 for balancing.

Check with Waytooslow here on WF. He's one of my flying buds and has done a lot of experimentation on motor/fan combos. I'll ask him to chime in.

Ciao,

Hawk
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:18 PM   #8
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I was Wondering when you were going to Chime in Hawk Hawk is one of the EDF Gurus here on Wattflyers I am Still experimenting with different set ups, that Hawk may have already done and tested out. Take care, Chellie

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Old 10-17-2014, 07:14 PM   #9
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Thanks for the heads up Chellie & Hawk!

Chellie,
For weight concerns, I'm def going to stick with a 4S althought the 5 is enticing. On the ESC side, I'm going to overkill in anticipation of future upgrades. (100A)
I still have some work to do in aquiring a watt meter.
I don't think I'm contest worthy yet so I'll sit back and watch you get the trophy.
Thanks for the links and I'm on my way to checking them out!

Hawk,
I will hold off on getting any motor upgrades per your point on motor/fan compatabilities. My mind's a sponge with talking shop on the different combination possibilities so between you and your friend waytooslow, I'm sure I'll come up with the best that suits my case.

The stock set-up in this F-16 is probably just fine but I was mostly intrigued with the jet turbine sound that the 10 blade produces. I realize that it comes at an efficiency cost so that's where I started thinking about a more powerful upgrade.
I'm trying to build off of the idea of a 100A ESC and a 4S 2600mah 60C battery. Any 10 blade set-up that would accomodate that with at least the performance of the stock set-up, or maybe more, would be appreciated.

I've been following Don's site for a while now and will probably end up with his Hobbywing 100A. I saw only 1 10 blade CS EDF and an HET 2W-27 motor recommendation for it. There's a 9 blade Wemotec/HET 2W-20 combo too.
Being as I'm not trying to break the sound barrier, I don't think I have to justify an alloy EDF (which was my first impulse) so that would keep the cost down. I'll spend on that if it turns out to be the best option in my case.

A dynamic balancer is also in my sites. I haven't pieced together any EDFs in the past for upgrading so that and a watt meter is the next step. This is my second F-16 and a step up from my SkyAngel 50mm.

Nice to meet up with you and Chellie!
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:36 PM   #10
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Hi Turnigy ESC are the best of the best ESC for the money, I have never had any problems with them, they also have a Switching UBEC, they have been bullet proof for me.

$45.92 for a 100 AMP ESC

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ontroller.html


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Old 10-17-2014, 10:38 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Hi Turnigy ESC are the best of the best ESC for the money, I have never had any problems with them, they also have a Switching UBEC, they have been bullet proof for me.

$45.92 for a 100 AMP ESC

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ontroller.html


Awesome! That brings me to another question I meant to ask.
What does the UBEC do? I see some ESCs come with and some without. I also have seen some with SBECs. Any advantage to one or the other?
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Old 10-17-2014, 10:41 PM   #12
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I also saw this one with data logging. It's not a plush but it has that SBEC that I was asking about.


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...a_Logging.html
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Old 10-18-2014, 01:31 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Suprawill1 View Post
I also saw this one with data logging. It's not a plush but it has that SBEC that I was asking about.


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...a_Logging.html

Hi a UBEC and SBEC is the same thing, Its a switching voltage regulator that uses electronics to lower the voltage to about 5 volts for the receiver and servos to work, the cheapy ESC use a Linear Resistor only to reduce the voltage, and its a weak voltage regulator, The Data logging will record information on your last run and it can be displayed using a Data logger box, I have not used the Data logging ESC so I dont know how well they work, Your welcome to Try it though LOL, ESC with no BEC, means that you have to use a separate UBEC/SBEC with the ESC to supply voltage for the receiver and servos to work.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arehouse_.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...g_Feature.html

Data logging display parameters:
Max Temperature
Environment Temperature
Max Current
Min Current
Max Voltage
Min Voltage
Nominal Voltage
Off Voltage
Motor Run Time
Power on Time
Motor Pole Number
Max Motor RPM
Error Times





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Old 10-18-2014, 02:04 AM   #14
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Thanks for the explanation on the U/SBECs. Good to know!
I'm better aquainted with the data logging. I used to use the like when dialing in my Supra Turbo. I used to race.
So, will I be ok with the ESC with data logging or should I gravitate toward the plush you suggested?
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Old 10-18-2014, 02:09 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Suprawill1 View Post
Thanks for the explanation on the U/SBECs. Good to know!
I'm better aquainted with the data logging. I used to use the like when dialing in my Supra Turbo. I used to race.
So, will I be ok with the ESC with data logging or should I gravitate toward the plush you suggested?
Any Turnigy ESC you want if you like the data logger, go for it myself i like Simplicity, I am into KISS LOL

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Old 10-18-2014, 02:17 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Any Turnigy ESC you want if you like the data logger, go for it myself i like Simplicity, I am into KISS LOL
Haha! Ok, I didn't know if there was a specific reason for the plush series.
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Old 10-18-2014, 06:25 AM   #17
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Ok, just another question about lipos.
Is it worth the extra $20 to purchase the Turnigy A Spec over the G-Force Elite? Same specs except the G-Force doesn't show a burst rate. (not that I would excced 60C (159A) in my case)
Turnigy is 33g lighter but .5" longer.


http://www.valuehobby.com/elite-40c-2600mah-4s.html


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html


I wouldn't even think about this comparison with the stock set-up but I know somewhere down the line, I'm upgrading the EDF.

Thanks!
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Old 10-18-2014, 07:09 AM   #18
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Hi I would stay away from the nano tech lipos, Reason being, is that after about 2 to 3 months, the nano tech lipos start to Fall flat, and wont give the rated c Rating,

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._4S1P_45C.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._4S1P_40C.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html

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Old 10-18-2014, 07:17 AM   #19
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I have some Zippy Compact 4s 2200's and they've been incredible even though they take some abuse in my edf's. Of course, from things I've read, all batteries are at the mercy of the companies that make the cells. Even the mighty Thunder Power batteries seem to have had a bad spell recently.
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Old 10-18-2014, 07:33 AM   #20
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Hmmm. The Zippys are def cost effective. I guess it depends on who you ask.
I've seen some that swear by the Turnigys. Everyone's bound to have a bad experience with a brand or two. Sounds like a toss up out there.
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Old 10-18-2014, 08:07 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Suprawill1 View Post
Hmmm. The Zippys are def cost effective. I guess it depends on who you ask.
I've seen some that swear by the Turnigys. Everyone's bound to have a bad experience with a brand or two. Sounds like a toss up out there.
IMHO the Turnigy Non Nano Tech Lipos are great, as are the Zippy and Rino Lipos, Its the Nano Tech lipos that are giving people problems after a short while, I had to toss out a Nano Lipo , it Sat Around For a short while, I dont even think I used it, it was new, and it puffed and had a very low voltage in it, and I have heard from others here that, they work great at first, then fall flat real quick, From my own experience with Nano tech lipos,IMHO stay away from them, you will be money ahead, I wont buy any more nano tech lipos.

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Old 10-18-2014, 06:18 PM   #22
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Ok, point taken. I was gravitating toward the A Spec nanos because they are lighter than the standard Turnigys. With that said, I think I'll check out those GForce Elites. They are also lighter than the standard Turnigys and not far off the pricing.
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Old 10-19-2014, 12:32 AM   #23
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On lipos you may find it beneficial to check and compare China Hobby Line. Great service, excellent. Quality and price US warehouse. That all I buy anymore. Gave up on Nanotech a libg time ago. If it's HK I go with compact Zippys.

Hawk
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Old 10-19-2014, 01:01 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
On lipos you may find it beneficial to check and compare China Hobby Line. Great service, excellent. Quality and price US warehouse. That all I buy anymore. Gave up on Nanotech a libg time ago. If it's HK I go with compact Zippys.

Hawk
Will do Hawk! Thanks!

On th EDFs, what do you think of the Wemotec 9 blade and the HET 2W-20 combo? That would be complimented by a 100A ESC/SBEC with data logging and a 4S 2600mah 60C lipo. Besides giving me the desired jet whoosh sound, do you think it will parallel (or better) the F-16 stock set-up?
I don't know how 810 watts equates in power or lbs of thrust.

http://www.donsrc.com/cart/index.php...product_id=136

http://www.donsrc.com/cart/index.php...product_id=131

Will
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Old 10-19-2014, 01:40 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Suprawill1 View Post
Will do Hawk! Thanks!

On th EDFs, what do you think of the Wemotec 9 blade and the HET 2W-20 combo? That would be complimented by a 100A ESC/SBEC with data logging and a 4S 2600mah 60C lipo. Besides giving me the desired jet whoosh sound, do you think it will parallel (or better) the F-16 stock set-up?
I don't know how 810 watts equates in power or lbs of thrust.

http://www.donsrc.com/cart/index.php...product_id=136

http://www.donsrc.com/cart/index.php...product_id=131

Will
Hi the link does not give the size the EDF is, might want to email Don to find out what size it is. the link says mini fan, I dont think its a 70mm EDF.

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