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Old 08-17-2005, 09:09 PM   #1
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Default Real Radial Sound

Hi

Has anyone done any work with adding real engine sounds to their electric warbird? I'm currently flying a 101" B-25 powered by 2 AXI 5330/18 turning 18 x 10 APC-E props. These make a beautiful , subtle sound but one of the local 'petrol heads' here said "but it doesn't sound like the real one!" Neither do a pair single cylinder, 2 stroke chain-saw motors.

I remember seeing an article in Scale International mag where real engine sound was sampled and played back thru a speaker in the plane. I am about to start a Brian Taylor 82" Corsair and my plan is to put a 100mm, car stero sub-woofer in the firwall driven by a 50 watt amplifier and the 10S4P flight battery with the sound coming from a small MP3 player altho this site http://benedini.de/ENG/index.HTM offers more features at a price.

The main problem I think will be finding a speaker light enough with a the frequency range and power handling. The prototype Corsair was about 14/15lb, a speaker I've seen was around 1 lb so with the electric conversion I'm planning on an AUW of about 18-20lb. AXI 5330 on a 18" prop and 10S4P is producing around 2100watts which should be enough power to weight.

Any thoughts?

Richard
Bundaberg, Australia
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Old 08-19-2005, 10:42 AM   #2
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Hi Bundy,
Never mind those petrol heads, they will all be ducking when you get them in a growling low straffing pass with your Corsair!

Pete pionted out this thread to me and maybe I can help a little.

Yes, you can do it, and the main problem is to find the right power speaker for the weight. I did the RCSI article and there will be a new article probably coming in QEFI in the October magazine. My HE111 with the sound crashed last September, and it had to be completely rebuilt. I am now sure that the problem was not the sound circuit and it has been working well all season. The Visaton 4" speaker that I use weighs about 6 ozs and two are used on the HE111. They are capable of about 20 watts each. The entire system weighs about one lb, so your hunt for a better speaker is the right one. Having said that, after trying lots of other speakers, I ended up using the speaker that Thomas Benedini said I should use!

Tell me more about the 5330 motors, how are you getting on with them and what rpm and current do you get? What is the weight of your B25 and what batteries are you using? We are looking at using those motors and it will be interesting to swap information.

All the best,

John
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Old 08-19-2005, 01:21 PM   #3
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Default Sound simulation...

Hi Richard,

John is FAR too modest. To the best of my knowledge, John is the first person in the UK to have fitted a simulated engine sounding device to an electric scale model and he has the 'know-how'!. His Heinkel is performing better than ever since its rebuild and is now flying on brushless motors. It also posses cannon and machine gun sound simulation...and can deploy a Doodle Bug! An amazing modelleing achievment.

The pic was taken at the North London Baldock Club Scale Day this year. Johns latest is a Brian taylor based Me109 and the other three warbirds are my own Hanger 9 E conversions. I count six 4130/16 motors!

We both want to venture to larger machines, so your findings on the Axi 53 series would be most helpful.

Good luck with the Corsair,

Pete.


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Old 08-20-2005, 02:18 AM   #4
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I just heard something on one of the science channels today about making a speaker out of any surface. I guess I should have watched it now. Maybe I will catch it this weekend and let you know.
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Old 08-20-2005, 03:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by John Seidelman
I just heard something on one of the science channels today about making a speaker out of any surface. I guess I should have watched it now. Maybe I will catch it this weekend and let you know.
Just found the link
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com....s3isound.com/
It was at the Sceince Channel on Sat. Looks cool, but I don't know if it will help or not.
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Old 08-20-2005, 11:39 PM   #6
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Default AXI 5330/18 details

Hi Guys

And thanks for inputs - some very nice looking planes there and electric!

My B-25 is built from the 101" Ziroli plan, weights in at 35lb ready to roll and the 2 AXI turning 18 x 10 APC-E really is too much power. Each AXI is powered from Thunderpower Prolites 10S4P (2 packs of 5S4P). At full bore this shows 2300watts on the wattmeter at 70 amps and 6900 rpm. I'm thinking 17" or even 16" props would be much kinder on the Future 55/73 ESC and still have enough power to fly effortlessly. As it is these motors will pull the 35lb round some beatiful big loops but I am pushing the limlts of the ESCs.

I orginally had a pair of Plettenberg 370/50 A3 in there but one of them threw a magnet on the maiden flight and siezed up. I had been using one of these motors in a 1/4 scale Tiger for nearly 2 years before this and really can't explain what happened. Neither can Plettenberg and weren't really too interested in finding out hence the change to AXI.

So far I'm more than happy with the AXI. They are far less noisy than the Plettenberg which tend to have a harsh, 'tight' whine to them. Two suppliers have hinted that the AXI perhaps don't have the build quality that some others might have and I suppose only time will tell. I'll be sure to keep you posted.

I've got a little more work to do on an electric 65" Mustang which I'm decking out with opening canopy, air vent and retracable tailwheel as a bit of a trial for some ideas for the Corsair. The idea of using a solid surface as a speaker is fascinating and will look into more to see if it has any appication to what we are doing.

Be sure to keep us posted on your building efforts and I will be looking out for the October mag.

Richard


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Old 08-21-2005, 09:59 AM   #7
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I am surprised by the watts you mentioned, axi talks about 1900 watts "only" with a 19*12, far bigger than your 18*10...
I use also several axi (4130/16) on my planes (8lbs only) and found that these motors don't like too much high amps (I threw a magnet), so don't overcharge them


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Old 08-21-2005, 10:53 AM   #8
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Hi Luc

I think the watts AXI talk about are 'watts to the prop' as they call it and I'm measuring watts going into the motor. Assuming around 80% efficiency their figures of 79 amps, 1941 watts and 6250 rpm on a 19 x 12 from a 10S lipo would just about be spot on. Funny that really.

Is it revs that caused your magnets to be thrown or high amps? AXI quote figures of 90+ amps for their 5330 but only 5780 rpm at this current. If I reduce my prop to 17" or even 16" my top current should go down into the 60 amps range but revs might go into the 7000+ range I'm guessing. Would I in fact be making the chance of throwing another magnet worse?

Plettenberg suggested I had some sort of harmonic vibration problem with my 370/50. It was the new motor that siezed and the one from the Tiggie which was nearly 2 years old was fine with the same prop, ESC and battery set-up. When it 'let go' it was almost at idle coming into to land. Can't really explain it.


Richard
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Old 08-21-2005, 03:50 PM   #9
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mmmm...maybe....or different props used...who knows?
I think I had too many amps (60+ in peaks) for the 4130....maybe the 5330 is sturdier.
Anyway, I tested the service repair from model motors (straight to Checz rep) and got back the motor repaired, no cost, in a month...that was good and I recommend it, in case you have any trouble.
I plan to get a 5320/28 (249 kv, same as 5330/18) for a 12 lbs monocoupe (cub like), in 9S. I am still wondering about the prop for a 45A static....I was guessing on 19*12 but I guess now it might be too much....
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:03 PM   #10
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Default B-25

Hi Richard,

Many thanks for publishing your findings on the 53 series Axi. These 'first-hand' experiences are worth their weight in gold.

I caught John landing his 111 after a Doodle Bug deploying sortie at the Woodsprings (Bristol, UK) Club E-fly this Sunday. A super day with excellent weather...a big thanks to all at Woodsprings!

Your B-25 pics look most impressive...and it sounds as if your Mustang is going to be too.

Cheers,

Pete.


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Old 08-24-2005, 03:21 PM   #11
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Hi Bundy John and Pete,
Thanks for the info on the drives, you are putting a lot of voltage and current into the 5330!

I did look at the S3i site John and it seems that you have to put 100w into a lump weighing 1.43lbs so that would be too heavy. The 6oz Visaton speakers are very efficient and can provide 20w so this is the standard until somebody can find lighter speakers......... ? It is the sound pressure level (spl)/watt figure that needs to be good for efficiency of sound output. The cone of the speaker is the light bit, it is the speaker magnet weight to drive the coil that needs to be lighter but very powerful.

If anyone out there knows of other specialist high output miniature speaker manufacturers then please let me know.

Anyway, 1lb payload is not the end of the world for a model this size and it works for me!

Regards,

John
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Old 08-25-2005, 03:18 AM   #12
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Record the sounds for us when you get her done. Should be Great.....
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Old 08-30-2005, 03:08 PM   #13
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Hi everyone,
When searching for real engine sound modules for my 1/5-scale Commander twin, I found this device:
http://www.eaelec.com/sounds.htm
I have sent a request for a gas engine sample, but have not got a reply yet.

BTW, I like the mp3 player idea. One could make recordings of suitable engine sounds from Microsoft Flight Simulator

/Leo
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Old 08-30-2005, 03:27 PM   #14
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Hi Leo,
That site might give some good results, but it will need much more amplification. The 1/5th watt amplifier might be good for boats, but you really need 40watts plus for planes.

I guess there will be lots of companies making these circuits in the future and all power to them. It makes so much difference to the model when the true sound is heard (and the petrol heads go all quiet ).

But who can come up with a super light 20 watt (or more) efficient speaker weighing less than 6 ozs? That is my problem area at the moment.

All the best,

John
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:28 PM   #15
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The SPB-1 unit is offered without a power amp as well. I have a homebuilt dual power amp I will use for this application.
Speakers with neodymium magnets are much lighter than ferrite magnet speakers with similar power handling and efficiency

/Leo
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Old 08-30-2005, 10:23 PM   #16
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Default Throttle Response

Hi All

I'm still playing with all sorts of ideas on how best to add sound to a big electric. I've built simple a 70watt amp powered from the lipo flight battery drawing only a few amps at peak output and using a real cheap ($6.00!), 120watt, 2 way, 100mm car speaker weighing 10oz. This setup will nearly lift the roof of the building shed and I will take it outside soon to see what effect it has.

I'm powering it from an mp3 player - the web has a whole host of radial sound files out there. The booming flypast ones really do sound good! My initial thinking was to have a series of mp3 files starting with a radial turning over onto low rpm, mid range and high back to low and then shut down. The idea was to step through the mp3 files via a spare(?) channel on the transmitter.

Not sure if this idea would work but I'm now thinking of just using a constant high rpm sound ( anyone tried this http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJDU0&P=7) and then 'chop out' sections of this high rpm sound wave with a square wave (or amybe a sine wave?) oscillator driven via the throttle channel. Full throttle on the transmitter would give full sound wave and as the throttle comes back the oscillator would chop out more of the sound wave's peaks hopefuly simulating a lower rpm. Any thoughts??

Reading about Earle Aune's 76" Corsair (http://www.strictlyscale.com/earlaune.htm) I'm now not too worried about the weight of the speaker. His 76" F4U weighs 20lb and he has seen them fly at 27lb and is infact saying don't build too light. The Brian Taylor plan I'm building is the 82" version so I'm thinking it will be more important to get a speaker that 'works well' rather than save a few ounces - might even be able to look at 125mm speakers. Obviously this would be different with smaller electrics tho.

Richard
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Old 08-31-2005, 01:40 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Bundy
Not sure if this idea would work but I'm now thinking of just using a constant high rpm sound ( anyone tried this http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJDU0&P=7) and then 'chop out' sections of this high rpm sound wave with a square wave (or amybe a sine wave?) oscillator driven via the throttle channel. Full throttle on the transmitter would give full sound wave and as the throttle comes back the oscillator would chop out more of the sound wave's peaks hopefuly simulating a lower rpm. Any thoughts??

Richard
I just recieved mine from Tower yesterday (RAM Radial engine sound). GREAT Deal, but really doesn't have the radial sound I was hoping for: sounds way too smooth, not that lopey, almost Harley like sound. Also sounds like the sample may have been recorded from INSIDE the plane, rather than outside.
I plan on using it anyway in my H-9 Corsair: better than nothing, but I'm sure there will be better sounding ones in the future. I hope RAM gets there act together, revises it and does it right, as there is quite obviously a very growing market for such a product, given the explosive growth of larger scale electric warbirds since Li-Ploy batteries became widely available.
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Old 08-31-2005, 05:39 PM   #18
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would you consider this device (rather light) will give enough sound volume in the air??
thx for the feedback, I am on the list too...
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Old 09-01-2005, 10:38 AM   #19
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Hello Richard and Luc,
Don't forget that the unit that you make must not interfere with the radio reception to the receiver. This was my biggest worry that more electronics so close to the receiver could cause interference. The benedini circuit (www.benedini.de) does have opto isolation and if the sound power batteries fail then the throttle control to the speed controller will remain active. Thomas will take any true engine sound that you have and pre-programme it into the circuit. He will add in separate start up and shut down sequences if available plus gun sounds etc for activation via a separate servo. He has been fine tuning the circuit for many years and although it is not cheap, I would not want to go through all that development on a scale plane. If a boat or a tank gets interference the consequnces are not so expensive!
John
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:27 PM   #20
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Johnr, the RAM units are natually isolated: they have no connection to reciever or receiver battery. They use a separate battery, and switch is servo activated.
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Old 09-01-2005, 03:38 PM   #21
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corsairjock
can you record and post on this thread the sound of the ram engine sound?
thx
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Old 09-01-2005, 05:15 PM   #22
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I haven't installed it yet, hopefully will do so this weekend and take video (with sound) of flight. I will probably initially use a 9 volt battery, but will order a 3S 500mAh Li-Poly, which will allow better/ lowder sound at same weight.
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Old 09-01-2005, 09:24 PM   #23
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Hi All

Thanks for the info on the RAM unit CorsairJock - I was about to order one. If you could post a sample of the sound that would be fantastic. Is there somewhere here to post videos?

Hey John is it possible to reprogramme the sound file in the benedini unit? I hate reinventing the wheel but my main concern is the cost and once programmed not being able to change it. I'm playing with a number of different sound files at the moment and still hope to find better ones and would hate to have to choose just one at this stage. I really would want to get it into a plane and see how they actually sound first. The idea of opto-coupling to the throttle channel is a good precaution and is easy to do - thanks for that idea.

My plan is to power the sound unit and its amp from the motor battery. This will be a 10S4P (2 packs of 5S4P) lipos thus giving me the +- 20volt supply for the amp. These packs are giving nearly 30mins flight on the B-25's AXI so I'm thinking I can afford a few amps for the sound unit and avoid a seperate power supply for sound.

All good tho

Richard
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Old 09-02-2005, 02:29 AM   #24
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Can't wait to hear this thing ROAR!

If You Like Your FREEDOM
Thank A VET!
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Old 09-02-2005, 09:25 AM   #25
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Hi Richard,
Thomas Benedini can reprogramme the unit at a nominal charge, but I don't think you can do it easily yourself. Thomas can programme a few (up to 12) other separate sounds as well for you can trigger through the unit but they will not be proportional with the throttle setting. Be careful about powering any unit from the flight battery pack as you might induce interference. Thomas always said that I should use a separate battery for the sound. At present I am using a 700mah 10 cell (12v) nimh pack and at 30 watts plus, the sound lasts for 14 minutes, so it is only just big enough. The amplifiers get quite hot as they are not 100% efficient.

I find that the generation of the actual sound is the straightforward bit as Thomas has done most of the development there, the clever bit is to get it loud enough with seriously affecting the performance of the plane. The other development criteria that you need to consider is getting the electric motor whine suppressed. In my HE111 I have changed away from gearboxes to get rid of that grating sound. A rubber isolation mounting for the engine would probably stop the motor using the fuselage as a sounding box. Good luck with the development.
Hope this helps,
John
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