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Hi-Performance and Sailplanes RC hotliners, electric pylon racers, F5B, F5D, sailplanes and gliders

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Old 10-22-2008, 07:42 PM   #1
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Default Vintage Kyosho meets 21st Century

After many other projects taking priority over this (including emigrating to Switzerland), I have finally got my one and only aeroplane project underway.

I am a huge fan of 1980's Kyosho r/c models. Be it on-road or off-road cars, planes or helicopters. Over the past few years and amongst other things, I have acquired three Valencia 1800 motor gliders. These were released in 1986 by Kyosho and are a semi-scale model of the popular Grob G109 motor glider. Construction is 'bleach bottle' LSS plastic fuselage with built up balsa wings and tailplane - Span is some 1800mm hence the name. The end result is I think a very pretty aircraft. No ailerons on this model, rudder and elevator only. Torque comes from a 540 sized Kyosho Le Mans 240E - effectively a 19t buggy motor - driving a factory prop via a reduction gearbox. Power was a typical 6-cell 7.2v NiCd buggy pack. Motor control was done via a mechanical switch operated by a servo.

In it's day the Valencia, like similar Kyosho models was expensive compared with other offerings and as a result, not many were sold. Couple this with somewhat lethargic performance from the power system and it's not hard to see why they weren't so popular.

Two of my three Valencias are new-in-box and will remain as such, but one had been flown albeit not much so this particular one is the focus of the project - essentially a modernisation - and my first ever proper plane project.

The original motor, gearbox and prop were removed along with the three ancient Futaba servos and receiver. The wiring harness and motor switch were also pulled.

Now, whatever went in had to be lighter and as powerful if not more so. I know very little about brushless motors, particularly outrunners and all this watts per pound business that you chaps talk about. So, what's a guy to do if he can't figure it out...? Guess...!

I bought a cheap RC Smart Evo 1550 outrunner and 35A controller from eBay along with a custom mounting kit from SMC in the UK. Two low-cost MG995 servos I had hanging around were employed for the rudder and elevator controls. I picked up a couple of low cost 2400mAh 3S 15C Lipo packs to drive the thing and once all on the table ready to go in, I was praying it'd work.

I fabricated a new firewall from ply to replace the one suited to the old motor and we were ready for the rebuild...! Everything so far has gone together easily. The motor is in along with the ESC and the two new servos. The Rx is a new Airtronics 92824 8ch 2.4GHz unit that will be used with the RDS8000 Tx.

Weight saved so far over the original configuration is some 400g...! I haven't had the wings on yet to try and balance the CofG, so may well yet end up running two of the LiPo packs in parallel (155g each) to balance things up. I really don't want to start adding weight. I have loaded everything up against the firewall of the plane to get the CofG as far forward as possible.

I hope to get the plane finished this weekend and test-flown as soon as weather and time allows. Some pictures below - hope it meets with approval as my first go at this type of thing...!


Original Le Mans 240E 540 sized motor, reduction gearbox and prop.


Old battery vs new. This is a 2003 buggy pack for comparison. Original packs were 1200mAh.


New motor installed and ready to run. A test with an 8x5 prop seemed OK.



8ch 2.4GHz Rx should do the trick.

I will post more when I get chance.

Cheers,

Rup

Old Kyoshos Rule: Valencia, Etude, Duet, Petit Fantasy M20, Petit Ballad 900, Breezin 1200, Express M29, EP Concept
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:38 AM   #2
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Default Valencia Re-Fit

Hello Rup,
Great job on the upgrade, that's a serious weight reduction! I'll be interested to hear how it flies, please keep us posted.
I've moved this thread to "Sailplanes + High Performance". Although the model has a few years on it, it's still likely to get a wider readership there, and seems like a better fit.
Best of luck,
Ron
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Old 10-23-2008, 07:54 AM   #3
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Hi Ron,

Thanks for the kind words and moving my thread to an appropriate place. I am really looking forward to getting this model finished, as I've had it for some years now waiting it's turn in the usual queue of projects...!

My concerns are two fold really. Firstly, the power system. Is the motor powerful enough...? What prop should I use...? How can I estimate the performance of the plane...? Secondly, can I get the weight placed sufficiently far forwards to ensure a reasonable CofG, and has all the weight reduction caused a detriment in performance (ie: less mass and thus less penetration)...?

I still have a number of things to sort out on the plane, but we're close now to being finished. Can't wait for the test flight...!

As you can probably guess, I am not really an r/c plane guy. I do have a little Kyosho Minium and back in the UK an OS .46 powered Cessna 182 and Parkzone P-51, but both have seen little use as I am a helicopter guy really.

Will post more pics as I get nearer completion.

Old Kyoshos Rule: Valencia, Etude, Duet, Petit Fantasy M20, Petit Ballad 900, Breezin 1200, Express M29, EP Concept
www.concept30.co.uk
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:48 AM   #4
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hello. saw your nice thread on the kyosho valencia. in fact borrowed one of teh pics found on the net, could be yours...
i have one myself upgraded with lipo power and brushless motor.

my setup is a bit overkill, having a bmi spitz 850kv motor with a turnigy 80A programmable esc and a 14.8v 2250mah lipo rhino pack.
have put a 11x6 folding propeller and will be doing some other minor alterations such as 6cm diameter foam wheels to get a bit more clearance and few bits and pices here and there to revive this baby.

still have not flown this one as i am still looking for a nice way to secure the wings to the fuselage.
how are yours mounted?

the plane was stored for more than 15 years and ofcourse no manual in hand. would you by any chance have the manual of the valencia?

by the way, very nice motor mounting, i have mine with a lot uglier (but guess it will work) wooden one...
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:44 PM   #5
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Hi Nikos,

Great to hear mine is not the only Valencia that's had some attention...! The wings are mounted using a 4mm (or so) steel rod that goes through the holes in the fuselage wing recesses. It's cranked slightly at the exit points to give the wing some dihedral. The wings push fit onto this and are then secured using elastic bands between the two pegs on the underside of the wings.

I do have a manual in one of my NIB models. I will dig one out and scan it in when I get chance. They are buried in storage so may take a bit of time...!

Thanks for the kind comments on the motor mount. I used threaded alloy tube that is secured with M3's all round. The firewall is just some ply that I cut to shape to replace the original one that had a huge hole it it to fit the original 540 sized motor mount.

Interesting motor setup you are using. I guess it's a smaller motor but with more volts to get the performance. How do you manage with CofG...? My Valencia is still ever so slightly tail heavy with BOTH of my 11.1v 2400 LiPos up front...!!! I also have the ESC and Rx mounted ahead of the CofG as far as is realistic. I am pretty sure I will need to add weight to the nose (sadly).

Some more pics below. Note twin batteries - effectively 3S2P 2400 Lipo. Blue piece is Rx is just placed in there - actually now mounted up front. Servos are cheapie TowerPro MG995's. Note hole where third motor switch servo resided in original model.






Old Kyoshos Rule: Valencia, Etude, Duet, Petit Fantasy M20, Petit Ballad 900, Breezin 1200, Express M29, EP Concept
www.concept30.co.uk
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:51 PM   #6
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hello and many thanks for your reply.
indeed not so many valencias around, imagine mine was a gift to a friend of mine at the age of 10 from a family member's trip to japan...
attempted to fly twice, hand launched with the same experience a dog has on flying... then after tried to "fix" it with a friend as clueless as the pilot and then she straight was put away.
now in my hands trying to get her up....

as far as the manual is concerned, whenever u have the time will be appreciated, no rush..

coming down to my setup, the motor is not exactly what i would call small.... it is a bmi spitz equivalent to a .30 glow engine. motor itself weighs 140 grams! add another 240 gr for the battery and u see i did not save on weight that much....
i currently have measured the cog by calculating the mean chord of the wing (width at the narrowest plus width at the widest part of the wing), in our case 36 cm in total, divided by 2. then at the point where the wing is 18 cm wide the plane balances almost at 2/3rds, little less than 6 cm measuring from the front side. at exactly 6 cm the plane is nose heavy, but at 4.5-5 cm she balances perfectly, which i undestand is within the accepted tolerance. at least this is what i've been told.

i made the comment on the motor mount because it looks factory finish... in general your plane is very clean and as far as i can see in immaculate condition, as opposed to mine which is bit "tired"... i'll post up some pics, it looks lame but it works.

the mounting of the wings is a real headache to me. i also have the angled steel rod but i lack ideas of how to secure the wings. if you could be kind enough to post up a pic or two of the bottom of your plane.. to see where the rubber bands are...

i use a futaba radio on this one and have the receiver well back in the fuselage, as far as possible from the esc, which is velcroed above the battery tray. the servos i used are some futabas that were in the plane, some 18-20 years old... hope they won't give up on me. i thought it would be way too much to install some off my nitro off-roaders. so far they seem to work fine. time will tell.
u mentioned a third servo?? the one i have had a 2 channel receiver in it! and an on-off switch.... all history now ofcourse....

i'm posting below a link from a greek forum that i created for this plane, u might not understand the comments, but they say a picture is a thousand words...

http://www.modelteam.gr/index.php?topic=2843.0

you will see to which forum & thread i reffered...

again many thanks for your reply

cheers

Nikos
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:29 AM   #7
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Howdy - great job on this thread. I also have a Valencia (1990) which I attempted to fly back then with the original underpowered equipment and unfortunately crashed, but with relatively minor damage. Last September I turned it over to a local Hobbytown who did some minor maintenance, added a brushed ESC/BEC and we managed to get it airborne for about 5 minutes on the LeMans 240E and 7 cell NiCad - tip stalled and drove it into the trees that border 3 sides of our local field. Right wing completely broken in-half and the old motor is now history, residing somewhere near the field - no great loss there, so my point is.....I'm bound and determined to fly her again after I replace the wing and go brushless. Can say enough about about that "clorox bottle" fuse and cowl, hardly a scratch on either.

Since I'm familiar with AutoCAD, I'm in the process of drafting up the NE178 airfoil from coordinates I've found on the internet to reconstruct the wing. This will be a good winter project so I'll keep you guys posted on my progress - unless anyone's got a spare wing set out there (personally I'd enjoy the challenge of the re-build) - but let me know anyway.This thread was good motivation for me to get busy.
Thanks, Dusty
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:51 PM   #8
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WOHA! another one! great. keep us posted of you project.
i still haven't flown mine as i'm still looking for a way to secure the wings on the fuselage.

any hints guyz? appreciate...
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Old 12-06-2008, 01:53 AM   #9
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Hey Nikos,
Forgot to include this - per the manual, the CG is located 50-60mm back from the leading edge or approximately centered over the hole in the fuse for the wing dihedral support rod. Mine is set at 55mm and achieved level flight with centered trim with the original electric power system installed. Regardless of the power system used, locate the center of mass directly over the crown of the airfoil at the root for this wing.
I will scan the manual and post for you, although I doubt there is any useful info since you have already built the plane. As Wireless has suggested (thanks!), the wings are secured in the fuse pockets by two (2) #64 rubber bands doubled over and stretched across a pair of opposing plastic T-posts secured to the underside of the wings. Again per the manual, the posts are located 10-12mm outboard from the underside edge of the wing root, and 130mm from the TRAILING edge of each wing. This guarantees that you will hit the 12mm square x 3mm thick piece of plywood reinforcement (pad) located inside the wing (I've see it - so I know its there!) with the recommended M2.6 x 15 screws.
Hope this helps get you going.
Dusty
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:28 PM   #10
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appreciate your reply. seems i am missing some parts (these t-posts or whatever, simply do not exist in my plane) thus asking for the manual.

it was not me who built the plane but a friend, who after 15 years or so of storage gave it to me...

the wings my plane has have some holes but have no idea who did them, what was there or anything like that...

if i will not be able find the "corect" way of securing them, i will get creative...

thanks again
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Old 12-09-2008, 03:35 PM   #11
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Default What timing!

I just found this thread, I too have an old Valencia. I received mine from a friend who salvaged it from the trash! Radio and all! I've managed one flight on it with the stock power system, using 3S LiPo and an ESC. Barely enough to keep it up, and caught minor damage from a cross wind on the landing. I currently am looking for a brush-less setup as well, and I'm considering using this platform for aerial photography.

Wireless - your servos are quite overkill for this plane! they are heavy, and mounted toward the rear. It should help with your CG if you put in lighter servos. Try some HTX900, they should be sufficient for scale flying. I haven't run these control surfaces through the calculator, but I suspect they have more than enough torque.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/eflight/calcs_servo.htm


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Old 12-18-2008, 12:16 PM   #12
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just thought to give u guyz a hint of my idea of securing the wings to the fuselage.
i thought of getting two small hooks and screw them to the side of the wing - where it gets into the fuselage- and also making 2 holes at the same point where the hooks meet the sidewalls. thenafter -somehow- a couple of strong rubberbands will hold the wing in place still looking how to route them in the fuselage.

any thoughts?
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Old 12-19-2008, 04:00 AM   #13
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Wanted to let everyone know that I have a pdf file of the Valencia 1800 manual, unfortunately it's a little too large to post (2.4 MB). I know NIKZAN is anxious to get his hands on it, so for those interested, just shoot me an e-mail and I'll send it out. It's definitely not in pristine condition (found it's way into the prop a while back) but it's patched-up and readable. Many thanks to Sky Sharkster who suggested this method of making it available.

I've got my replacement wing set modeled in Inventor9 and will convert to full size acad drawing for the re-build in the next couple of weeks - so that will be available in the near future.

Happy Holidays,
Dusty
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Old 12-19-2008, 11:38 AM   #14
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thanks dusty, pm sent.
for the moment will not attempt to do anything stupid with the wings... will wait to see what the factory is (was) saying.
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Old 12-23-2008, 02:15 AM   #15
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hey Dusty, would I too be able to get a copy of the plans, I have a Valencia brand new in the box with a bunch of spare gear boxes, props and the like. I also have the original flight bec provided kyosho. Ugh is it heavy for all it does! I also have the kyosho cessna with the plastic fuse and all. that one was only flown once, and never crashed, but sadly the monkote needs some attention as do the tail feather plastic tips. I also have the wings from the prelude, another kyosho model that had ailerons. Please keep posting progress on the model, it's interesting reading about these old planes.
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:55 AM   #16
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Default wing plans

Hey Merc,
Glad you've joined us. I'll post the wing plans as soon as I finish the details - couple more weeks should do it......not that it takes that long, but I hate when work interferes with the important stuff.
Thanks, Dusty
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Old 12-24-2008, 05:41 AM   #17
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thanks Dusty, what I was hoping for was the manual, not so much the plans, would you happen to have that as a pdf? I have the metal bars, but not quite sure how the whole wing assembly goes together.

thanks
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:38 PM   #18
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sorry for the additional post, the board requires me to make 5 posts before sending a pm - this one is #5
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Old 03-08-2009, 10:43 PM   #19
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after quite a long time, i'm reverting with the impressions of the maiden (finally!) flight of the valencia...

in short the plane flew very nice, even though it feels bit heavy, not that it had any problem. the plane is overpowered, that is a fact. glides wonderfully off throttle as it is supposed to be but the power is always there, able to get the plane exit difficult situations with ease. i will try 11.1 volts instead of the 14.8 i used today to see how the change in weight affects the flying, power-wise i think i will not even notice it.

i also had no problem whatsoever with the propeler, as i feared it would hit the ground when the rear end is lifted on take of. the bigger wheels did the trick. the looks are compromised i have to admit.

i will also need to add a bit of downthrust as in full throttle it needed too much down trim to stay straight..

all in all a great day with tons of fun.
i will post up some pictures when i get my hands on them.
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:22 AM   #20
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New update with the valencia...

had some flights yesterday as well with only change in the power by using a lighter 11.1 volt 2200mah battery from my 450 sized helicopter instead of the 2150 mah 4s I used last week. it was a bit windy in comparizon with last week's calmness. the plane had no problem in taking off and climbing towards the wind. enjoyed gliding very much as well.

this time i have plenty of pictures and i'm already re-sizing them to post up. stay tuned...

next thing on the list is to find some decent decals alike to the originals to dress her up as she's too white and perhaps try and match some wheel pants and a spinner......
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Old 03-16-2009, 01:55 PM   #21
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below some pictures of yesterday's outing.













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Old 03-17-2009, 02:47 AM   #22
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nice... looks fun!
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Old 04-07-2009, 03:00 AM   #23
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Default Nice work on the threads guys

I was in Perry Georgia for their swap meet and picked up a Valencia that was brand new in the box but missing the motor. I paid a mere $10.00 and thought I would also install a brushless setup. I too just thought the plane was "pretty" and liked the landing gear. Ron-AKA Skysharkster got me hooked on these powered gliders. Anyways, too many planes and not enough time caused me to list the Valencia on ebay where it sold last week for $85.00. I hated to see it go but I hope one of you guys got it. I would love to see a "you tube" video. Thanks, Richard
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Old 05-03-2009, 05:55 PM   #24
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Hey guys,

Great to see the Valencias are getting some attention. I took mine out for it's maiden flight today. I set her up and she flew right off the deck in about 6 or 7 yards. Climb performance was more than adequate. I ran 3S2P 2400/20C Lipo and got 8 climbs to around 300 feet and a bit of part-throttle cruising before the ESC cut the motor power.

The 1550kV RC Smart Outrunner didn't like it too much though - I have completely grilled it so it's going into the trash. I have ordered a Turnigy AerodriveXP SK 35-36 1400kv / 550W to replace it which should have plenty of power in reserve as well as being a better quality item. To cope with this, I have also ordered a 40A ESC to replace the 30A unit I have for some extra headroom.

Once I got home I put the Lipos on charge and found that only 1500mAh of the 2400 capacity had actually been used, so I think the cutoff was either being significantly over-cautious or the motor had begun to toast itself and was ripping a lot of current and the voltage was dipping a bit low. Anyways, the cheapo-Lipos are still good.

Thanks for the pointers on the servos. Yeah, they are way over spec for the job, but I had them hanging around so decided to use them.

Once I get the new motor and ESC installed, I'll get some in-flight photos.

Old Kyoshos Rule: Valencia, Etude, Duet, Petit Fantasy M20, Petit Ballad 900, Breezin 1200, Express M29, EP Concept
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:44 PM   #25
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wireless, nice to hear you got your valencia in the skies.

did you fly with both the 2 lipo packs in the fuselage as pictured above?
...

i know what my next purchase will be though... a nice chair for the field with a coffee pocket . this thing flies forever...
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