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RC Radios, Transmitters, Receivers, Servos, gyros Discussion all about rc radios, transmitters, receivers, servos, etc.

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Old 04-22-2014, 10:17 AM   #1
solentlife
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Default Orange 3 axis stabiliser - yes and no ..

OK ... I am an old fart flyer but one who embraces whatever tech can improve or help with activity.

I use Gyros in Heli's, have had on fixed wing. Mixed success I might add on Fixed wing. But they have been heli gyros fitted to them.

The Orange 3 axis stab interests me as it works with any Rx unlike the 'brother' which is DSM Rx combined.

So unlike many who would ask - What is advantage or how to set-it-up etc. - I am asking the other side of the coin :

Who has fitted this or similar and found what it CANNOT do despite it should be able to ?

I read Quorneng who had trouble coupling elevons and canards with it .. maybe quorneng can expand on that a bit ?

Any other combos or connections that are not so good ?

Would prefer it if the thread does not degenerate into the usual Pro Stabiliser / Anti stabiliser debate ... we've all read those often enough.

I might be oold fart flyer - but I am interested to start using this particular Orange version ...

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Old 04-22-2014, 01:34 PM   #2
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The HK stabilizer works OK if you are doing a standard REA setup. It theoretically can handle elevons or a V-tail. I did get it to work with elevons in my Arado 555 but it took a lot of fooling around. I took it out because that plane really didn't need it.

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Old 04-22-2014, 02:21 PM   #3
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Would it work better with a Mixer AFTER the unit - or is it supposed to work with mixed command from Tx ?

I would assume the standard stepped Delta mixer - the stabiliser would be fighting it all the time ?

I know when I used a MEMs Heli unit on a fixed wing - it had all sorts of strange antics with either way.

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Old 04-22-2014, 03:56 PM   #4
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I have a couple of the 3 axis dsm receiver units and they work reasonably well. Vtail and elevon is chosen with dip switches. Im very happy with them. Especially in windy conditions

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Old 04-22-2014, 04:17 PM   #5
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Have the dsm2/stabilizer combo in a Durafly Spitfire. Was about USD $15.00. Works well. Had to play with the gains, especially rudder. Dialed in now and I can fly that plane in a hurricane.

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Old 04-22-2014, 04:27 PM   #6
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Don't know about the one by Orange (or if this might be the same one...)

The one from Nitroplanes won't do V tail or elevon unless you use a mixer device between the 3 axis gyro and the servos.

They do take some tweaking before they are any kind of aid. You start out fighting the stupid thing being oversensitive usually.

I have 3 of the ones from Nitroplanes. Just installed one so far.
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:51 PM   #7
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I have a HK one but have never fitted it. I have previously used a similar 3 axis stabiliser with mixed results, in the end I took it off because I preferred flying without it.

It did work as advertised and certainly reduced buffeting in gusty conditions, plus it made general flight very noticeably smoother and did the same thing for simple aerobatics like loops, rolls, knife edge.

The downsides I found were:
  • Normal turns requires excessive use of rudder otherwise model would slip horribly through turns. Reducing rudder gain lessens this but then you donít have effective stabilisation in yaw.
  • The stabiliser fought against certain aerobatics like spins, snap rolls, lomcovaks, tumbles etc making these manoeuvres impossible.
  • It was hard to find a gain setting that was both fully effective at slowest speeds but didnít cause extreme flutter at high speeds.

I found myself constantly turning the stabiliser on an off in flight, this got tiresome in the end so i took it out. I can see that for general sport/scale type flying they may be ideal, but for the flying I was doing it tended toget in the way.
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:55 PM   #8
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I have 5 of the 3 axis stabilizer/receiver units. They work great, it's like a switch to shut off the wind. I have had absolutely no trouble with them.

I have 4, Eagle A3 Pro stabilizers, they are not made by Eagle Tree systems. I believe they work like the HK separate stabilizers.

I find I can not use either one of them in a plane that has aileron/flap mixing because you need 2 channels for the flaperons to work.
I am going to try and use the stabilizer on one side of the plane, and run the other through channel 6, which would be not stabilized, and see how the plane would fly.

The Orange units both come with a second aileron output, but it is a reversed direction output. it is just like having a Y splitter with a servo reverser built in. Unless you change the linkage one one side, the second output is useless in my book.

For V-tail or elevons, you use dip switches on the unit, do not use the mixing on the transmitter.

The Eagle A3 has a neat feature called AVCS mode, Automatic Vector Control System.
IF you can get your plane set up to fly correctly with NO subtrims or any control trims at all, then you can use this function. fly the plane into a straight up attitude, then switch to AVCS mode, now the stabilizer will try to hold the plane in that attitude, all you have to do is control throttle to hover.

My test plane has been crashed and repaired too many times to fly without some kind of trim, so I have not had this function work good for me, although I know it does work electronically very well, in ground tests.

The stabilizers made by EagleTree seem to be very good and versatile, but also very complicated to set up. A friend of mine had them, but took them out in frustration. They can be used as a safe switch, where turning it on will bring the plane to a flat level flight condition, from any screwed up attitude you got the plane into. Great for a safe exit from a death spiral dive.

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Old 04-22-2014, 05:34 PM   #9
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Good stuff ... really appreciate it guys ...

And thanks for staying of the "Real flyers don't use it" debate !!

My last foray into gyros on fixed wing had me literally pulling my hair out. My Twin high power Parkjet is a pig to get in the air and I tried a MEMS to assist to keep her level for climb out ... the idea being that as she left the bungee at over 120kph - she was already capable of surfaces commanding attitude. The gyro to catch her as she left rails and ME to catch up with her !!
All I got no matter how low I turned the gain was waggling violently wings ... as if the gyro was way too high gain. I turn it off ... she stopped waggling but then I had to be on the ball to keep her in the air instead of her usual lawn dart antics. (Please I tried reflex, clicks up on trim, all sorts - the power on such a small airframe was just overwhelming).

I am not contemplating using this Orange on her ... she will be tried other ways ...

I am considering for my J3 Cub that has a mind of its own and some other general sport stuff I have. Seems it could be the answer.

One of the concerns I have is when in slow speed ... and Gyro tries to maintain attitude ... can the gyro unit actually push her into a stall and cause her to fall out ? Gyro then fighting the fall-out and worsening it ? We as pilots usually put the nose down a touch to regain a bit of speed and control .. the gyro surely would do the opposite ?

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Old 04-22-2014, 05:44 PM   #10
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The gyro doesn't try to maintain altitude... it tries to maintain attitude.

It resists rotation about any of the 3 axis. It has no altitude sensing at all.
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Old 04-22-2014, 05:55 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
The gyro doesn't try to maintain altitude... it tries to maintain attitude.

It resists rotation about any of the 3 axis. It has no altitude sensing at all.
You misunderstand ..
I tried a MEMS to assist to keep her level for climb out ... the idea being that as she left the bungee at over 120kph - she was already capable of surfaces commanding attitude. The gyro to catch her as she left rails
...I am aware a Gyro maintains the attitude it reads before model alters pitch / roll / yaw etc. whichever axis it is set to. I never said ALTITUDE ...

My Twin was supposed to maintain level wings so I could give command for her to climb out. The power in her was so overwhelming that she literally just spun of the rails even though props were contra.

She defied all explanation and attempts to get her up and away.

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Old 04-22-2014, 06:00 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
One of the concerns I have is when in slow speed ... and Gyro tries to maintain attitude ... can the gyro unit actually push her into a stall and cause her to fall out ? Gyro then fighting the fall-out and worsening it ? We as pilots usually put the nose down a touch to regain a bit of speed and control .. the gyro surely would do the opposite ?

Nigel
I dont think the Gyro would cause a stall but it could exacerbate a stall and make recovery harder. As you suspect, when the nose drops as the plane stalls the gyro will apply up elevator making the stall worse. If a wing drops the ailerons will go opposite potentially making the model snap harder.

I actually had a model snap roll and crash when using the gyro (last real crash i had). It's hard to be 100% certain that the gyro contributed but i think it did. I was deliberately provoking a stall (practising post stall harrier flight) but it certainly snapped much more violently than usual, and it's perfectly possible that was caused by the gyro fighting the stall. After repair of the model and removal of the gyro it never snapped in the same way.

In normal flying it's probably not an issue.
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Old 04-22-2014, 06:16 PM   #13
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High acceleration can confuse a gyro. It senses a change in motion and tries to correct for it.

Yes, in a stall the gyro attempting to prevent the model from changing attitude can make things worse. You are already low on airspeed and it applies elevator to prevent the nose dropping. The plane starts to drop a wing and the gyro applies opposed aileron which gives more adverse yaw than roll effect.
It will apply opposed rudder... but that isn't much help when its doing everything else exactly wrong.

But the gyro is not going to attempt to hold altitude at all. If you establish a stable glide it will hold that glide slope. (all the way to the dirt)
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Old 04-22-2014, 06:22 PM   #14
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Nigel: I've had the use of these orange RX 3 x stabilizers in three different planes now and I think they're great! You will be able to stay ahead of the rollover and they do try an maintain the present attitude when you release the sticks.
Be forewarned, if the gains are bit high, you virtually have to use three sticks to make a smooth turn if two axis are fighting you. I quickly learned that with the gains kinda high, just trying to turn back with the ailerons produced a swishy very slow almost not wanting to come back turn until I started lessening the gains.
My Budlight flyer is so squirrely without the thing when its under power that I can't even figure out why it is virtually uncontrollable when the thing turned off unless I'm gliding, I'm guessing it is some kind of a thrust angle or incidence issue, but it just goes haywire when I add even a little power.
Be also aware that the gain pots are very touchy. They have a about an eight hour clock face range of movement, and everything you need to adjust is seemingly within about a few minutes of the center of the range. Adjust, test, adjust test, and then you be happy. If to high the ailerons will violently flap the wings with speed. Kinda scary.
Using flaperons is out unless you only connect one side of the ailerons to the stabilizer. It works quite well on my Jr. Falcon. I suspect for your v tail and other mixed systems something similar would work.
As cheap as these things are, it might be cheaper to use two stabilizers than a downstream mixer assembly. Trimming the gain might be a nightmare or maybe instruments could measure outputs.
Try it, as Dahawk says, you can fly one of these in a hurricane even on a very lightweight foamy. Marty
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Old 04-22-2014, 06:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Mivins View Post
Be forewarned, if the gains are bit high, you virtually have to use three sticks to make a smooth turn if two axis are fighting you.
That's exactly what I experienced, I normally coordinate turns with rudder anyway but with the gyro it was essential and you had to use tons of rudder. Possibly i had the gains set to high but to be effective in slow speed flight they really needed to be high. I guess the gain level is a compromise, possibly I should have dropped mine lower but even with lower gain the issue will still be there, just not so pronounced.
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Old 04-22-2014, 07:14 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
High acceleration can confuse a gyro. It senses a change in motion and tries to correct for it.

Yes, in a stall the gyro attempting to prevent the model from changing attitude can make things worse. You are already low on airspeed and it applies elevator to prevent the nose dropping. The plane starts to drop a wing and the gyro applies opposed aileron which gives more adverse yaw than roll effect.
It will apply opposed rudder... but that isn't much help when its doing everything else exactly wrong.

But the gyro is not going to attempt to hold altitude at all. If you establish a stable glide it will hold that glide slope. (all the way to the dirt)
Can I ask a question .. no-one else has introduced the word ALTITUDE ... this is twice you have brought it into the thread ...

I think everyone here knows that the gyro / stabiliser tries to maintain ATTITUDE, which could be any angle .. attitude etc. last sensed.

Not trying to start a brawl .. just curious why use the word which has little relevance here ?



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Old 04-22-2014, 07:21 PM   #17
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I know of the 'flapping wings' ... my PKJ Twin was so violent the wings were like a blur !! But no matter how much I turned the gain down - it still happened.
I'm not planning on using it on that machine ... I have other ideas there.

So the upshot is really flaperons are out. Elevons are in but take care to get them right. RAE basic is fine.... or should it be AETR as in my radios !!

I'm seeing a pattern .. any other quirks or items not advised or they cannot do ?

Looks like my J3 might just get one ... I'm determined to 'kill' the devil in it !

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Old 04-22-2014, 07:24 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Can I ask a question .. no-one else has introduced the word ALTITUDE ... this is twice you have brought it into the thread ...

I think everyone here knows that the gyro / stabiliser tries to maintain ATTITUDE, which could be any angle .. attitude etc. last sensed.

Not trying to start a brawl .. just curious why use the word which has little relevance here ?



Nigel
You introduced the concept of the gyro attempting to prevent a descent.

I'm sorry that I read what you wrote and then responded based on what you wrote.

Originally Posted by solentlife View Post

One of the concerns I have is when in slow speed ... and Gyro tries to maintain attitude ... can the gyro unit actually push her into a stall and cause her to fall out ? Gyro then fighting the fall-out and worsening it ? We as pilots usually put the nose down a touch to regain a bit of speed and control .. the gyro surely would do the opposite ?

Nigel
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Old 04-22-2014, 07:26 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
That's exactly what I experienced, I normally coordinate turns with rudder anyway but with the gyro it was essential and you had to use tons of rudder. Possibly i had the gains set to high but to be effective in slow speed flight they really needed to be high. I guess the gain level is a compromise, possibly I should have dropped mine lower but even with lower gain the issue will still be there, just not so pronounced.
I think this is the main cause of anti .. that they can introduce other factors. OK - that's a subject I'm trying to steer clear of.

There is always a trade of ... I plan to fit one to my J3 .. which has a tendency to decide itself what it will do. I accept that general cruise flight will be smoother 'possibly' and that any co-ordinated action may incur a penalty. That's fine as a J3 is not exactly an F16 or Edge 540 !!

I am also of the school that looks upon such as an AID ... not a solution.

Cheers
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:38 PM   #20
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"I am also of the school that looks upon such as an AID ... not a solution."

Agree.....one must still maintain a certain level of control (of the sticks)....even if it has the ability to "self level or return to home".....

AMA 928214
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:26 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
"I am also of the school that looks upon such as an AID ... not a solution."

Agree.....one must still maintain a certain level of control (of the sticks)....even if it has the ability to "self level or return to home".....
My original career was a Merchant Navy Officer, grew up with developing radar, ACAS, AIS etc. and navigation systems.... Transit, GPS, Doppler and all that ...

It was drummed into us that all equipment no matter what was an AID - that we were the real thing .. they were there to help.

It was an age in the 60's and early 70's that was coming out of the 'Radar assisted Collisions' stage. People relied too much on them and actually "radar'd" into collisions ... basically because they failed to appreciate the motion formats on them.

Bit of topic ...

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Old 04-23-2014, 11:39 AM   #22
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The gyros work well for me. I did notice at first they held attitude on landing approach so you needed to do something to keep from running out of airspeed before the plane and ground were united. Holding a little down stick or putting a few clicks of down elevator in before approach worked for me.

The most capable gyro I have used is the blue light "ice man" gyro. It can be connected to throttle and programmed to change sensitivity with throttle. This feature is great for planes with a wide speed range. It has a lot of programming features, but is still easy to get flying.

The orange ones are so easy to set up especially in planes that are flown in a narrow speed range. The tend to work best when set just a little less sensitive than more sensitive.

My first gyro assisted flight was comical as the elevator action was reversed in the gyro. Smallest loops I had ever done. Finally fooled it by making a low pass to landing without touching the elevator stick.

When they are set up well they are seem-less in flight but you can see what they are doing by turning them off especially on a windy day.

Pilots that do not use expo do not seem to like the gyros as much is what I have learned from letting others fly my planes.

I have an eagle tree gyro on the bench but I have not flown that plane yet.

Terry

Flying is like ... ah well ... I can not think of anything it is like...
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Old 04-24-2014, 10:06 AM   #23
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Drat !!

I just made an order with HK for various .. and FORGOT to add the 3 axis Stab !!

Nigel

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Old 06-04-2014, 06:39 PM   #24
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OK .. I am going to backtrack a bit ...

I made a statement that was misread ...

One of the concerns I have is when in slow speed ... and Gyro tries to maintain attitude ... can the gyro unit actually push her into a stall and cause her to fall out ? Gyro then fighting the fall-out and worsening it ? We as pilots usually put the nose down a touch to regain a bit of speed and control .. the gyro surely would do the opposite ?
I did not think it necessary to make it a long paragraph and kept it to minimum. The meaning is :

You are slowing a model down and enter into a landing pattern glide slope, speed drops a little too much and nose drops and a stall is imminent. Pilot action should be to add a touch of throttle and if really needed nose down a touch to assist with regaining that touch of speed to regain the glide slope ... BUT as we have a gyro now on board - I expect the gyro to act when it detects the nose dropping by giving UP elevator to try and pick the nose up ... as the ATTITUDE has changed ...
This will change the apparent behaviour of the model and possibly exacerbate a stall when we have least possibility to recover.

So we can leave this aside I think ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>

You introduced the concept of the gyro attempting to prevent a descent.

I'm sorry that I read what you wrote and then responded based on what you wrote.


Originally Posted by solentlife

One of the concerns I have is when in slow speed ... and Gyro tries to maintain attitude ... can the gyro unit actually push her into a stall and cause her to fall out ? Gyro then fighting the fall-out and worsening it ? We as pilots usually put the nose down a touch to regain a bit of speed and control .. the gyro surely would do the opposite ?

Nigel
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No offence or jibe meant ... just explaining a little better my meaning.

Nigel

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Old 06-04-2014, 06:44 PM   #25
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Once I get home - I have a couple of 3-axis now winging their way home to me ...

First will be to my wayward J3 ... I love this in the air - but she's a real pain to get up there and no-one seems to be able to figure out why. You can do 2 take-offs one after the other and she will veer and then roll in either way ... no preference to left or right ! In fact one day - she did to left on first ... then to right on second ... same wind, same direction on runway ... etc.

Weird !

Nigel

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