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Old 01-24-2011, 01:49 PM   #1
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Default Advice Converting Rubber Bands to Bolts on Wing, Please...

I thought I'd post this request here because you guys are the innovative builders in our hobby and have probably done this a hundred times in a hundred different ways.

I'm building a Senior Telemaster to use as a Club Trainer and want to convert the dowel and rubber band system for holding the wing on to a "tongue & groove" and bolt system (like on my E-Flite T-34).

The DuBro wing bolt system looks like what I should be using for bolts, or is there something better?



What I would really like is advice on how to build the tongue & groove setup to secure the leading edge to the fuselage.

My initial idea is to build a light ply "rib" to match the inner rib of each wing half, but to build in a "tongue" on the lower leading edge, like this...





Am I on the right track, or is there something better?

Thanks... The Bum
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:11 PM   #2
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Bum, these help you out, or at least give you some more ideas?


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When I die, I want to go like my Grandfather did, in his sleep...... Not screaming like the passengers in his plane.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:17 PM   #3
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Default dowel and tube

I have used hardwood dowel and brass tube. On smaller park flyers a wooden skewer and drink straws work well. I'm not sure they would be as secure as your idea; but for planes already built they are easy to add. Not my idea, I have to thank everyone here for the trick.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:20 PM   #4
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Default wing mounts

Hey bum the have threaded washers with sharp barbs you can use under a ply plate for the bolts in the back of wing mount too. This way you wont have to tap out a solid block of wood.I put min in the very carefully with a small amont of epoxy around the top edge of them so they wont come out. I will post a picture of it soon for ya. I just mounted my sea plane wing tip floats the same way. joe
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:57 PM   #5
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I should mention that this is a two piece wing, each section is 48" so the mounting system has to take that into account hold them together.

GG, that is a very elegant method. All wood and neatly done. Looking at the pics of that model it's clear you are a craftsman. Thanks.

Tilodar, the brass tube idea is worth looking into. I'd need a big tube, but hey, that's possible.

RK97, yep, a blind nut will work too.

Thanks all (so far)

...The Bum
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:43 PM   #6
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Bum - look what I did on my mini telemaster. Should work well here too.

Just need a front connect point and rear bolts. Or you can do 4 bolts too.

Here is the thread:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1613

Start at post 44 or so for the wing. You would use two dowels in the front to keep the wing together.

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Old 01-24-2011, 05:56 PM   #7
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Default brass

or plastic or a drilled hole. Rcers shows it beautifully. The
advantage of others that have been on here longer than I...
I speak from memory and they post pics
Tilo
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:31 PM   #8
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Two piece wind huh, i have glued treaded rod into the middle of the wing ribs just before the wing cg then on the rear side of the wing dowl pins ,drill the holes in the side of fuse and beef up the inside a little . Then i use wing nuts with washers and lock washers. you must have a hatch for this but you dont see bolts from the out side. The plane must be using wing tubs also ,This is for a mid wing plane. joe
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:37 PM   #9
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Here is a few thoughts I have found out over the years.

Many people use nylon bolts that have a very high breaking strength, I read that it takes about 100 lbs of force to shear a 1/4 x 20 nylon bolt, the article recommended that you do a test break, to see if your design will break the bolt, or tear out one end or the other.

The same article ( sorry I don't remember what book it was in, I have read every model book I could get my hands on for over 50 years.) recommended the bolt should pass through a tight hole in a piece of hardwood,(they recommended OAK) that makes firm contact with the piece of hardwood that is threaded for the bolt. The reason given for this is that, if there is airspace or soft balsa between the scissor action of the hardwood, the bolt will not shear, but must be broken by pulling force, which may be even higher than the shear strength, and also causes a large compressive force in that area.

I have in the past, put a very light coat of petroleum jelly (Vaseline) on the bolt, then put epoxy on it, & in the hole, worked great and perfect alignment.

I have a flying wing that is all balsa with a lower mounted fuse, it is called the Little Plank, I changed it from rubber bands to a hook and rear bolts during construction. It has proved to be a challenging plane to fly, every time I have stuffed the plane into the grass, the front hook has torn the top of the fuse off, I am going to change it to a rear hook and front bolt, I think it will do less damage

I don't like rubber bands but they allow the wing to move in whatever direction the crash requires, I am thinking maybe a bolt in both front and back may be the way to go.

Dave R, Proud PGR rider.
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
Bum - look what I did on my mini telemaster. Should work well here too.

Just need a front connect point and rear bolts. Or you can do 4 bolts too.

Here is the thread:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1613

Start at post 44 or so for the wing. You would use two dowels in the front to keep the wing together.

Mike
That 's a great thread, RC. Thanks. You know your building a Classic when a 5 year old thread is relevant!


...The Bum
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Old 01-25-2011, 12:30 AM   #11
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Bum, saw you mention using the wing struts, and how to make em quick release.

Try something like this. 2 pair of hinges on each side. One side is mounted to the fuse/wing. Other ends go to the struts. Hair pin clip locks the strut to the mounts.

Quick, simple, and strong.


Here's how I did the ones on my Duck.


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When I die, I want to go like my Grandfather did, in his sleep...... Not screaming like the passengers in his plane.
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:37 AM   #12
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An old thread that needs updating!

I've tried tapping plywood with glue on the threads, but the plywood layers don't all stay together sometimes. So I just add more plywood and make it thicker. Maybe the solid hardwood would be better.

The barb type nuts seem to split the wood when tightened so I don't use those. Thumbs down for those.

I'll continue to use rubber bands if it's not a fast plane.
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:43 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dave180 View Post
An old thread that needs updating!

I've tried tapping plywood with glue on the threads, but the plywood layers don't all stay together sometimes. So I just add more plywood and make it thicker. Maybe the solid hardwood would be better.

The barb type nuts seem to split the wood when tightened so I don't use those. Thumbs down for those.

I'll continue to use rubber bands if it's not a fast plane.
Some of the lumber yards have square hardwood in three foot long lengths. They go up to 5/8 or 3/4 inch thick. This stuff can easily be threaded and will do the job.

Just make certain to sand the hardwood first with around 120 grit sandpaper before epoxying it in place. Sometimes those hardwood blocks have something on them so epoxy doesn't adhere well.

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Old 04-19-2014, 02:27 AM   #14
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The "T nuts" or "Blind Nuts" work GREAT... if you pre-drill the hole the correct size. Forcing them into undersize holes will split the wood.

I've been using these for over 40 years...
Do it right.
Don't complain about the issues caused by you doing it wrong.
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Old 04-19-2014, 02:55 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
The "T nuts" or "Blind Nuts" work GREAT... if you pre-drill the hole the correct size. Forcing them into undersize holes will split the wood.

I've been using these for over 40 years...
Do it right.
Don't complain about the issues caused by you doing it wrong.
You can also push them in enough for the barbs to mark the wood and then pre-drill holes for the barbs if that's what's splitting the wood. I add some epoxy when they are inserted for good measure.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
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Old 04-19-2014, 03:21 AM   #16
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Right, the barbs were splitting the wood. Maybe if the plywood was like 1/4", it wouldn't be an issue.
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Old 04-19-2014, 05:48 AM   #17
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I don't know what size bolts you guys are using,but I bought a 1/4x28 tap especially for nylon wing bolts.I drill a hole using a drill a couple of sizes under 1/4",too lazy to work out the size.
Then i tap the hole,and once tapped,run thin superglue down the hole.
This really hardens the threads.
Once dry,run the tap through again to clear the thread.
I also put a steel nut on the bolt,then cut a small bevel on the ends of the bolts to make them easy to center in the threaded hole.I do it in my lathe,but you could also use a dremel with a sanding drum.
Once you,ve done the bevel,run the nut off,which recuts the thread where you mangled it.Done.


P.S.If you use 6mm bolts,you of course use a 6mm tap.
I'm not quite sure which type of hardwood I use.I has a reddish tinge,and is very hard.If you don't clear the drill now and then,it starts smoking
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Old 04-19-2014, 05:54 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by DHC Beaver View Post
I don't know what size bolts you guys are using,but I bought a 1/4x28 tap especially for nylon wing bolts.I drill a hole using a drill a couple of sizes under 1/4",too lazy to work out the size.
Then i tap the hole,and once tapped,run thin superglue down the hole.
This really hardens the threads.
Once dry,run the tap through again to clear the thread.
I also put a steel nut on the bolt,then cut a small bevel on the ends of the bolts to make them easy to center in the threaded hole.I do it in my lathe,but you could also use a dremel with a sanding drum.
Once you,ve done the bevel,run the nut off,which recuts the thread where you mangled it.Done.


P.S.If you use 6mm bolts,you of course use a 6mm tap.
I'm not quite sure which type of hardwood I use.I has a reddish tinge,and is very hard.If you don't clear the drill now and then,it starts smoking
Yeah
I've got a metal lathe. Whenever wing bolts are required, I just turn down a piece of aluminum bar stock, to make it look like a blind nut. The center is tapped with 1/4 - 20 threads. Then, close fitting holes are drilled in the fuse wing structure. The home made blind nuts are then epoxied in.

That way, any type of blind nut needed can be made, with out having to use what's available in the hobby shop (Or local hardware store) shelf.

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Old 04-19-2014, 05:55 AM   #19
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Is that the reddish wood that doesn't float in water?
I don't know what it was... I got hold of a "scratch built" Kadet Sr "in the bones" that used some exotic reddish wood (to replace BALSA called for in the plans) for the spars.

Can we say overweight?
I did find out that A Kadet Sr could take off at 18 lbs, using a .46 glow engine, if you doubled up the main gear with a 5/32 music wire so it wouldn't drag the tail.
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Old 04-19-2014, 06:07 AM   #20
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Ply plate with two DIY shop blind nuts at rear of wing saddle area.

Two wood dowels set into blocks, one in each wing leading edge to mate with plastic tube set into wing saddle front section.

As long as brace that slots across the wings when joined is good - above is good enough.

To be honest for trainers - I consider Rubber Band to be better than bolt-on. There is usually a reason a designer chooses band-on wings.

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Old 04-19-2014, 06:29 AM   #21
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Rubber band mounting is a tradition carried over from Free Flight. We have altered the way the wings and bands go on in ways that negate the potential for the bands to let the wing pop off and reduce damage in a crash.

You will mostly find the wings are now trapped fore and aft so they can't slide or shift without breaking something. The correct way to use rubber band mount to reduce damage would allow the wing to shift relatively easily (and possibly pop off) just brushing a wingtip on the ground.

Early Sig Kadet Sr and the Carl Goldberg Gentle Lady kits use a single CENTERED dowel in the fuselage at the front of the wing for the rubber band mounting (Gentle lady has centered dowel at TE also) When the fuselage stops suddenly this mounting allows the wing to slide forward popping the rubber band off. The wings are not inset into the fuselage.. they ride atop a smooth surface and can easily be "cocked" instead of perpendicular to the fuselage.

The change of the Kadet and subsequent trainers to using a dowel across the fuselage at the leading edge was the beginning of the end of rubber band mounted wings providing ANY damage reduction vs bolt-on.

That dowel alignment pin glued into your wing's leading edge means you have ZERO damage reduction by using the rubber band mount.

There is no weight savings to go with the rubber bands and bolt-on gives slightly less drag.

Using appropriately sized nylon bolts with 1/64 ply "shear plates" and the wing mounted such that as the nylon bolts failed the wing would not tear up part of the fuselage you could actually have a MORE damage resistant model than using the correct damage prevention style rubber band mounting.

Building with balsa since 1966.
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Old 04-19-2014, 06:40 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Rubber band mounting is a tradition carried over from Free Flight. We have altered the way the wings and bands go on in ways that negate the potential for the bands to let the wing pop off and reduce damage in a crash.

You will mostly find the wings are now trapped fore and aft so they can't slide or shift without breaking something. The correct way to use rubber band mount to reduce damage would allow the wing to shift relatively easily (and possibly pop off) just brushing a wingtip on the ground.

There is no weight savings to go with the rubber bands and bolt-on gives slightly less drag.

Using appropriately sized nylon bolts with 1/64 ply "shear plates" and the wing mounted such that as the nylon bolts failed the wing would not tear up part of the fuselage you could actually have a MORE damage resistant model than using the correct damage prevention style rubber band mounting.

Building with balsa since 1966.
I too am old-school and also aware of the design concepts of band-on etc.
The simple requisite of band-on is to not have a rear edge that wing butts to ... the wing should sit ON a plate and be able to slide back / skew without hitting a 'wall' at T/E.

My Mini4 uses both bolt and bands ... seems initially daft - but in fact is good as the bolt gives resistance to wing movement in the violent manoeuvres she is capable of, but the bolt being a single small nylon allied with the bands allows wing to knock of in event of a prang ! Best of both worlds. But she is no trainer.

I still feel band-on is better for a trainer ... generally.

Nigel

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Old 04-19-2014, 06:43 AM   #23
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oops,got the tap size wrong,didn't I?
I meant 1/4 x20 of course.1/4 x28 is the weird old glow plug tap size!
Re the red wood,i hope never to find out if it floats in water!
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Old 04-19-2014, 06:46 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by DHC Beaver View Post
oops,got the tap size wrong,didn't I?
I meant 1/4 x20 of course.1/4 x28 is the weird old glow plug tap size!
Re the red wood,i hope never to find out if it floats in water!
You would have a hard time finding 1/4-28 nylon screws... but its a standard thread size and I could pick up appropriate screws/bolts/washers/etc tomorrow... in some cases the metal screws are appropriate so the "odd" thread wouldn't matter.
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Old 04-19-2014, 02:30 PM   #25
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I just drill a pilot hole through wing and block with a small drill bit then drill block with correct tap drill size, usually a numbered drill, tap - hit threads with CA - tap again for clean threads, drill small holes in wing with correct drill bit for clearance on whatever thread size you're using, blot wing down = done.
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