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Old 04-29-2015, 08:43 PM   #1
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Default More money than sense ? Mini Katana from Precision Aerobatics ...

On way home - I dropped in to see peeps at Riga shop ... and yep ! - walked out with box under arm .... PA Mini Katana kit .... it does have manual missing ... someone opened the box and its not gone !! So I got a discount on top of my usual !

They put a motor in the box ... Hyperion 3009 / 1000kv .... but I think its way too heavy for her ... Trouble is the factory (PA) state a PA 20 ... which has 37 diam, 31 length ... I think !! Or maybe other way round !! Anyway .. I know they are 37 and 31. Plus they state 27A max, 330W, 71gr on 3S and 11x5.5

I think the Hyperion motor is too heavy ... its a meaty motor ...

I've ordered from HK a Turnigy 2836/8 1000kv ... so reckon that will pull her round better ....

Will do a unbox and throw together thread shortly ....

Nigel

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Old 04-29-2015, 09:11 PM   #2
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You will love that plane. PA is good all around.

Only gotchas are that PA always does the CF rods with wire z-bends on both ends. You basically make each one cut to size with no "adjusting". It's easy and trouble free, but it's one shot. (Check trims then recheck them before shrinking / glueing rods)
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Old 04-29-2015, 09:33 PM   #3
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Can never have too many planes.

When "She Who Must Be Obeyed" complains...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwRrKaq0IyY

Change the fishing references to model aircraft...

Just gives you more room for more/bigger models.
(and less resistance when you want to go to HOOTERS!)
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Old 04-29-2015, 09:34 PM   #4
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That's noted tks and I actually will not use that. I'll be using my screw down ez links - so I have any adjustment needed. Last time I used fixed was in my control line days as a child !

It was the Katana or a SU 31 ......

Nigel

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Old 04-29-2015, 09:51 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Can never have too many planes.

When "She Who Must Be Obeyed" complains...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwRrKaq0IyY

Change the fishing references to model aircraft...

Just gives you more room for more/bigger models.
(and less resistance when you want to go to HOOTERS!)
Well I am getting rid of 4 of mine... Trading for a 300cfx.

They were retired aircraft anyway...
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Old 04-29-2015, 10:39 PM   #6
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PA have issues with manuals. For some ridiculous reason they don't make them available for download and they seem to regularly miss them out of the kits too.

PA make some nice planes (I've got an Ultimate AMR which i really like) but I've never been impressed with their customer support, I've had better luck with Hobbyking!

I'm sure you will figure it all out but they do often have a few quirky little build details unique to PA planes, the stupid pushrods being one such example. I'm sure there will be a build thread over on RCgroups if you had any questions. I'd guess keeping it light will be critical. the only issue with the Turnigy motor is likely to be that it's a smaller diamere can size so it 's mounting pattern wont match the motor box holes, and if i know my PA planes there wont be much spare 'meat' to allow holes to be slotted. The SK3 - 3530-1150kv I think would bolt up, though maybe slightly higher Kv than ideal.
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Old 04-30-2015, 06:50 AM   #7
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I was surprised to read threads on other forums where PA want paying for a manual !

I already noted some 'quirks' in design .... the wing holding bolts ..... use NUTS ? on inside of fuselage ? No wonder I couldn't figure out when looking at kit in the shop. I will change that to butterfly type to make easier.
The motor mount and prop setup puts a lot of shaft exiting cowl .... we'll see if that can be cleaned up.

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Old 04-30-2015, 01:36 PM   #8
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Most if not all PA planes use 'behind the firewall' motor mounting. So the motor goes inside the motor box with the shaft projecting through... Another slighly unusual design compared to most 3D models that use front mounted motors.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Most if not all PA planes use 'behind the firewall' motor mounting. So the motor goes inside the motor box with the shaft projecting through... Another slighly unusual design compared to most 3D models that use front mounted motors.
My Yak and the EF Extra all have behind firewall mounting. Its actually an advantage at times - means you can shim the motor to set prop position related to cowl. This Katana needs that, even the box photo shows it sticking way out from the cowl .... terrible !

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Old 05-02-2015, 08:27 AM   #10
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This is a serious request :

The manual a guy scanned and then posted on photo bucket is rubbish. Its barely readable.

Does anyone have a manual they can scan and send to me ?

The model - has some areas that are 'strange' - its first I've bought in today's RC world that positions of fittings are not marked, undercarraige fittings not even close to fitted .... canopy style needs care to find secure way.

So many simple things just not done or even marked. To be honest I'm starting to wonder whether it might have been better to buy alternative brand than this. And it was higher priced !

Sorry PA - this better excel in flight, because I think for the price - its overpriced. Luckily I got it cheaper, but sans manual.

Nigel

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Old 05-02-2015, 10:24 AM   #11
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The only PA manual I have is for the Ultimate AMR biplane, so i don't think that would be on much/any help?

Here it is anyway: https://www.hightail.com/download/bX...SWVmVFkxWjhUQw

I've got to say that I really like the way PA planes fly, but as a company they suck big time, they really are the worst.
You pay absolute top dollar for the kits but they nickle and dime you on every detail. Bit's of bent wire instead of ball links or clevises, a crappy little tail wheel that glues to the rudder and falls off first flight, main wheels that spin on normal threaded bolts instead of proper axles and wear out after a few flights, vortex generators and wing fences that are shown on the box but you have to buy as extras at ridiculous price. If you buy their motor you don't even get a prop adapter, that's extra (and expensive!). Cheap Hobbyking ARF's are far better equipped and more complete.

You cant download the manuals but the manuals are regularly missed from the kits. If so the only way you can get one is (you guessed it) to pay extra. The manuals themselves although detailed have some bad errors (like wrong CG location for instance).

One detail on the AMR that summs PA up.... Shortly after introduction they discovered it had a weak motor box, the mount plate kept ripping out. So do PA update the kit with a new motor box and send parts out to customers?.. Nope, they put a little square of fibreglass cloth in the new kits and a xeroxed sheet of paper with outline instructions telling you to laminate the patch onto the motor mount with resin (no resin supplied BTW)... Years later, motor boxes are still the same and the patch is still in the kits!

Their customer service is equally bad. On my AMR the carbon landing gear broke on the first (perfectly good) landing. PA didn't even bother to reply to my email when I contacted them.
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Old 05-02-2015, 12:36 PM   #12
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I'm looking at the UC mount area .... it can NEVER hold up to use ... no markings where to fit ... no holes ... nothing ...



Canopy ... the base unit - OK ... but trying to get the canopy to mate with base AND stay to fit ? And what do they give to fit the canopy to base ? A crap strip of vinyl tape. I used double side thin tape in the end and MY OWN strip tape as theirs was rubbish.



How to hold it down ? Magnets are no good - as it doesn't fit well enough. Canopy catch ? No that fouls the CF strip in fuselage top unless I align it slightly offset.

Now I really do not understand how they can take trouble to create marks and slots for hinges but not above U/C ?

So far - I'm not impressed.

Nigel

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Old 05-02-2015, 01:39 PM   #13
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Now here's an interesting bit !!

Tail plane (fixed part).

The slot in fuselage is only 1/2 length of stab to insert ! With soldering iron - as I usually do - I opened up the slot from the film. First thoughts ... box has wrong tailplane in it ... but then carefully inspecting the fuselage with light shining in ... there's a second slot ahead of first that together matches required length BUT there's a 'bridge' of wood fuselage separating the two ... so I suppose I cut that out ?
WHY have it ? Unless the fuselage is actually used by another model ?





And you have to be kidding me for control rods on a 'WILD 3D' machine as PA call this >>



CF rods with metal Z's just CA'd and heat shrink ? They will go in the scrap box and proper jobs made ... AND they think to fit UN-adjustable ? Sorry .. but screw-down quicklinks will be my fitting - so I can adjust after trials.

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Old 05-02-2015, 02:15 PM   #14
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I did say they have some 'quirks'!

The landing gear bolts on the the outside-bottom of the fuselage underneath the two triangular gussets.

Here is a photo of one of the early production kits that shows where the holes are, the gussets probably cover the holes as I think they were retrofitted to later kits. The holes should still be there in the under the covering so you will just need to drill through from the outside through the gussets:
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Old 05-02-2015, 02:20 PM   #15
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As for the canopy and cowl fit... it seems you may need to do some trimming. Here is a post from Shaun at PA about this issue that I came accross on the MK build thread:
......about the cowl no it shouldn’t be on top of the hatch. It is shown in the instruction but I guess the photo is too small (because of the printing size mistake). The cowl should be aligned (top & profile view) with the front bulkhead, then you sand or cut or grind gently a bit of the top to allow the hatch front to fit on top (do it gently to avoid gap between the cowl and the hatch).
That was done on the first batch of planes and then we have changed the cowl molds due to the modifications we did in the bulkhead and in these planes the cowl fits the same (aligned on the bulkhead) but this time the hatch doesn’t go on top of the bulkhead so there is no need in trimming the cowl as case A.

In any case the cowl is not placed on top of the hatch.

Shaun

Precision Aerobatics Team
To be honest it doesn't make much sense to me but maybe with the model in front of you it just might? I think the front lip of the canopy has to fit 'over' the front bulkhead, not sit behind it as might be the case with the fit-up you tried.

The PA pushrods are a pet hate of mine too. They do actually work ok if you rough up the wire so that the glue and thread can take hold, but they are fiddly and time consuming to make up and don't allow any adjustment. PA say they use them to save weight but for a couple of grams give me adjustable ball links any day.

The bridge on the tail slot will be there to stop the covering crushing the fuselage when it shrinks. Shame they didnt cut out the covering from front part of the slot.
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Old 05-02-2015, 02:45 PM   #16
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Not having manual .... I figured Elevators BEFORE stabs through slot ....



But boy what a fight to get hinges in !! Much better to have a full slot to slide in etc. with no rear bridge ... that can always be glued in after !!

So far - I'm seeing a lot of ways to improve this machine ... to make life easier on the builder.

Nigel

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Old 05-02-2015, 02:54 PM   #17
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The canopy has no front bulkhead to reference to - that's its problem ... it just sits DOWN onto the curved front decking. The only bulkhead is the rear one.

The U/C has no blind nuts at all ... no joke - they give you 4 typical SERVO screws !! You know the ones with a fixed washer shoulder to screw your servos into trays ... THAT is what they give you for fixing the U/C. I compared them to my boxfull of spare screws from servo bags ... IDENTICAL. So well see how long it takes to rip those out ... Personally I much prefer nylon bolts into blind nuts ...

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Old 05-02-2015, 03:01 PM   #18
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The canopy issue ... I think I will end up adding a run of depron at the rear to close up the gap.

Nigel

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Old 05-02-2015, 04:54 PM   #19
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OK ... the U/C .... I've managed to get something of the crap sheets I downloaded ... says to use nuts and bolts - to Loctite them. well I'm looking in my 'goodies' packet and all I see are diddy little bolts that wouldn't be my choice.

I'll worry about this once finished. Maybe I'll just replace one screw with bolt and blind nut each side..... leave the screws as other.

The wing bolts ... well those are set into Poly glue in the wings (generic Gorilla Glue) ... seems better way than their way of CA. Just need to get 'thumb' or 'butterfly' nuts for inside of fuselage to replace the normal nuts they give !

I'm using TGY 9018MG servos all round. Same size as 9gr but in the 12 - 16gr range. Haven't decided whether I will go pull-pull rudder as some do or put rudder servo at back end with rod.

I reckon this baby does not need 2200 LiPo as they say ... so maybe I can offset the 20gr excess weight of the Hyperion motor by using a lesser LiPo ... a 1750 will save me that amount easily.... while still giving me reasonable time.

Nigel

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Old 05-02-2015, 06:14 PM   #20
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It gets worse !!

The motor cage ... while gently easing the tabs into the slots to epoxy up - CRACK ! There's a small crack in one side ... where TOO MUCH lightening of structure has been made. I've continued and she's setting up now. I will smeer epoxy on both sides and then add 3mm Depron to each side as an added but featherweight addition.

Oh how I wish we were back in days of Pilot Kits ... they showed the world Lite Ply then was high quality stuff ... not the brittle fragile Chinese crap we have to work with now ...

Nigel

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Old 05-02-2015, 09:28 PM   #21
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Motor cage has actually taken the epoxy I smeered and is now OK without the depron.

Cowl does not line up with motor properly ... even with slots to allow it to get past U/C legs. The spinner is slightly low when viewed to the shaft hole.

She's all up now ... waiting gear and sort fixing the canopy retention.

Nigel

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Old 05-04-2015, 06:25 PM   #22
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So I fitted a canopy catch ... couple degrees offset to miss the CF rod in the top. Balsa block hardened with CA as the 'hole' for pin.

Servos are in ... screwlock adjustable keepers on control horns, z bends to servo arms.

Just about to CoG check her .... 1750 3S LiPo and 30A ESC, FrSky 4ch Park Rx (these are excellent and give over 1Km range ...)

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Old 05-04-2015, 06:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
I did say they have some 'quirks'!

The landing gear bolts on the the outside-bottom of the fuselage underneath the two triangular gussets.

Here is a photo of one of the early production kits that shows where the holes are, the gussets probably cover the holes as I think they were retrofitted to later kits. The holes should still be there in the under the covering so you will just need to drill through from the outside through the gussets:
Something looks odd to me about those blind nuts... Looks like they are installed from the WRONG SIDE of the plywood.
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Old 05-04-2015, 07:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Something looks odd to me about those blind nuts... Looks like they are installed from the WRONG SIDE of the plywood.
Nigel mentioned earlier.. They aren't blind nuts, they are just normal hex nuts which the manual tells you to glue on with CA. Typical of PA's corner cutting.
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Old 05-04-2015, 07:32 PM   #25
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OK .... on my CoG machine ...



Set at 85mm. Book says she should be 83 - 94mm.

AUW incl. 1750 Rhino 25C 3S, Hobby King 30A ESC with 3A uBEC, 4 TGY9018MG servos .... 825gr.

Trouble is PA only give a bare Airframe weight of 370gr ... fine - but what is recc'd FLIGHT weight PA ?

Anyway ... one review using CF gearbox and high KV but light motor ... gives 730gr.

My motor probably about 40gr more than the Gearbox / motor system. My servos are 12gr instead of 9 .. so that's only another 12 ..... my use of 1.5mm piano wire rods and screw links ... possibly 5gr ? Normal servo extension s ... another 10gr ?
So total excess : 40 + 12 + 5 + 10 = 67gr ....

Forgot to add - I fitted a spinner .... 20gr .... = 87gr .....

But boy is it light in the hand !! The Hyperion 3009 motor with APC 11*5.5 prop is going to punch this thing heaven bound with no trouble ...



Nigel

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