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Old 06-08-2012, 09:22 PM   #1
Bill G
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Default Dornier Gs scratchbuild

This build was already underway in HO229's Dornier 212 (and other seaplanes) thread:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...t=60763&page=8

The build will be 30" span and hopefully light enough for two small 10gm outrunners, although we'll see how that goes. Construction is built around a single piece center keel, with one piece formers attached to the keel, and then perimeter keels and stringers added.

The bizarre looking canopy was definitely an attraction to the project. I'm amazed that the plane never picked up the nickname "beluga".



Dornier Gs stamp with debatable color scheme info:

Lots of other Dornier seaplane stamps at the site also:
http://15.pro.tok2.com/~fwkf8336/air...aircraftd6.htm

Some references:
http://www.histaviation.com/Dornier_Gs_1.html

http://www.gebrueder-duerst.ch/turic...erichhorn.html

http://airliner.narod.ru/1unsucces/dorniergs1.htm


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Old 06-09-2012, 08:02 AM   #2
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Another very unusual subject Bill
Really looking forward to seeing this one develop!!

Barry
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:35 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by baz49exe View Post
Another very unusual subject Bill
Really looking forward to seeing this one develop!!

Barry
Thanks Barry. I'm really looking forward to the epoxy finally curing, on the glass canopy mold. I don't claim to be a glass molding expert, and I'm sure there are better resins that the good ol' Finish Cure that the LHS sells. The last time I made a part like this, I ended up lining the inside of the glass part with an additional layer of glass, and bombing it with the better part of a 2oz bottle of CA. It does work, however.

Well there are plenty of other areas to work on, while the glass cures. I may start sheeting the hull, and have been debating whether to include an interesting notch in the lower hull area, aft of the step. It likely is there to help break suction, along with the step, but the feature was not used in later versions of the plane, which are the Wals. Photo below:


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Old 06-09-2012, 03:21 PM   #4
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Bill,
The forbody line drawing is correct, the after body is in error... Will have to update the model.
The strange chine line is visible in that photo

Great photo of the aircraft! Explains much...

Keep up the great build Bill
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:41 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by HO-229 View Post
Bill,
The forbody line drawing is correct, the after body is in error... Will have to update the model.
The strange chine line is visible in that photo

Great photo of the aircraft! Explains much...

Keep up the great build Bill
That's putting it nicely. The rear view of the 3-view found on the web is so poor, that I'm not sure why they bothered to show it, let alone draw it. It's really not much different than using a photo of a beluga whale or Dr. Dornier's bald head to represent the bubble canopy.

As expected, the epoxy I used along with thin .56oz glass cloth was as flimsy as it gets. I ended up adding a second glass layer, this time using 5min epoxy versus the 20 min epoxy. Using a method I've used in the past, I stiffened the molded part by adding a layer of glass cloth on the inside, soaked with CA. I also had to coat the outer surface of the part with CA, before even pulling it away from the foam mold, to give it some amount of rigidity so as to not destroy it. It's pretty firm now, after adding a layer of body filler, along with the CA-glass treatment, and gluing a balsa bottom perimeter frame inside the part.
Some specs:
Projected AUW without canopy: 14oz
Projected AUW with canopy: 30,000lbs
I guess the good thing is that the plane will need the forward weight anyway. Too much time spent on this dang part. Time to move on.


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Old 06-10-2012, 01:13 PM   #6
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Bill,
The Scale police are looking for you… something about taking away your birthday…
Looks nice and progressing quickly, unlike all my projects (LOL)…

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:37 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by HO-229 View Post
Bill,
The Scale police are looking for you… something about taking away your birthday…
Looks nice and progressing quickly, unlike all my projects (LOL)…

Cheers,
Dave
One of these days I'm going to push you to mold a fuse from one of those many molds, and build something to fly. You have quite a choice of them, at this point.
I'm not sure how many scale police there are around any more.
Actually I earned the right to make that deviation as I put my time in correcting the Guillows PBY, that had an error in the same area.

On the Gs, I caught myself working up an interesting pull-pull arrangement, where you would rip off a set of control horns, when you pull in either direction. Easily corrected by adding a second set of holes, as two elevator cables run straight, and the other two cross each other. I believe the setup is the same as the full scale plane, which uses two pairs of cables for dual redundant elevator control.

The rudder control uses a bellcrank in the rear fuse, where pushrod/s (1 or 2, haven't decided yet) will be concealed in the lower stab, and exit near the rudder control horns, concealing as much of the linkage a possible. It appears that this setup will force me to cover the lower stab after it is mounted on the fuse, as the internal pushrod/s will have to be ran inside the stab frame.


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Old 06-12-2012, 08:26 AM   #8
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Figured I'd get the tail feathers out of the way, since I won't sleep without this area resolved. The parts are sized around 10-15% overscale, as the scale sized surfaces would be a bit small for this small size of model. The next versions of Wals had water a water rudder, which could be added but would not be scale. For this model, the air rudders will be depended on for steering. Making the tail feathers with airfoiled surfaces was a bit more work than flat surfaces, but hopefully worth the effort in terms of looks.


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Old 06-12-2012, 11:04 PM   #9
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Bill,
Progressing nicely I see, what technique are you using to ensure the pull-pull cables maintain slack free operation?
From experience I have not had the best of luck maintaining equal tension on the pull-pull set-up. A few of the aircraft I designed and built had flutter issues.
All were slow flyers and had no tension mechanism so if you have a scheme your using to tune the system I would like to explore it
Dave
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:15 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by HO-229 View Post
Bill,
Progressing nicely I see, what technique are you using to ensure the pull-pull cables maintain slack free operation?
From experience I have not had the best of luck maintaining equal tension on the pull-pull set-up. A few of the aircraft I designed and built had flutter issues.
All were slow flyers and had no tension mechanism so if you have a scheme your using to tune the system I would like to explore it
Dave
The CL line maintains some elasiticity after pre-stretching, which seems to keep it taught. I've had better results with this stuff for small models than with cables. The cables are never quite tight. For a self tensioning-override spring setup, all that is required is to place a spring/washer/stop collar over the cotter pins, and then remove the E-Z link locking screw, allowing the cotter pins to slide freely in the E-Z link. I haven't had to do that yet however, as I can always pull back on the cotter pins and reset the tension. The dual cables used here are a bit more of a pain however, as there is no individual adjustment on the cables. If I don't set them evenly when tying them off at the control horns, then they will flex the elevator.

The only pull-pull issue I had was with not perfectly aligning the control horn holes along the hinge axis line. As the control surface is pulled in either direction, the cables progressively go slack. Even so, it wasn't a problem on the slower flyer types that I've used these setups on. I'm sure if they were larger and heavier there would have been issues.
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:39 AM   #11
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Thanks Bill,
That's an easy cost effective solution.

For what it's worth... I tinkered with channeling both pull-pull lines down a single very long and curvy golden rod. It was my experience that as long as the golden rod was centered upon the servo and control surface axis of rotation it did not have slack issues.

I have used spider wire (fishing line) and I had a difficult time tying it and achieving equal tension. Your clever method will surely solve that issue
Dave
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:46 PM   #12
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This build should start going together quickly, now that the major assemblies other than the motor tower are well underway. This is around the 4th or 5th wing I've built using the construction method below, which works well for externally braced wings and builds up quickly. Gotta love constant chord wings also.


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Old 06-18-2012, 07:19 AM   #13
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The engine tower is mostly together now, and I'll have to see how the counter rotating setup works out. I cut down and balanced a reverse rotation prop to resemble the front 4.5" GWS prop. GWS has 5" props available for reverse rotation, so that's always an option for a matched set. Yet another item to order however if I want the 5" props, as the LHS doesn't stock them.


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Old 06-18-2012, 08:03 AM   #14
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The tractor- pusher setup on the upper wing is really interesting Bill. It's going to look great in flight with the two motors running and so very different as well.
Have you any intentions to fly the finished model off water or will it be on grass??

Barry
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by baz49exe View Post
The tractor- pusher setup on the upper wing is really interesting Bill. It's going to look great in flight with the two motors running and so very different as well.
Have you any intentions to fly the finished model off water or will it be on grass??

Barry
I'd like to fly it off water. Then again I have a whole fleet that needs to be flown off water. Seriously though, the idea of building it a bit smaller than the 4-5ft span seaplanes I've built, is that it may have a better chance of getting to water. I'm optimistic about the counter rotating setup, as the torque from a single prop setup does make things a bit less smooth on the water, from what little experience I have. I found a video last night of a German guy who built a similar Wal seaplane, just a bit larger than this one. It appears to take off very easily with the counter rotating props. Irregardless, at the lighter weight, reasonable wing loading and smaller size of this plane, it will make it to the local park for grass flying.

This guy here has some really nice scratch built vintage German seaplane models that fly well:
http://pfisters-adventures.de/4771/index.html
I had another link but can's find it, which shows a build by german guy that goes by the handle "Greenmunster", on a German rc forum. The counter rotating Wal setup seems to work really good on the water.

As for the model progress, I finished the rear exposed dummy engine (well about as much as it's going to be finished) with exhaust manifold, radiators and grilles for the engine tower, etc, and am ready to start sheeting the fuse. The fun part will be locating and installing all the center wing struts, with wiring routing through them to boot. There's a reason folks tend to avoid building parasol type setups.
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:15 PM   #16
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Working on sheeting, with some of the bottom hull yet to finish.


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Old 06-19-2012, 08:40 PM   #17
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Beautiful work as usual Bill!
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:46 PM   #18
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Interesting, unusual project.

Until I saw the last posted photo with your pencil in the frame I thought it was much larger. Even more impressive at this scale.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:59 AM   #19
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Thanks Rush and Pat.

Originally Posted by pmullen503 View Post
Interesting, unusual project.

Until I saw the last posted photo with your pencil in the frame I thought it was much larger. Even more impressive at this scale.
I was going to build it larger, but the problem is that I never seem to get around to flying those planes. With the issues I had molding the canopy using finishing resin versus molding reason, I'm glad I didn't go any larger.
This one at 30" span will hopefully be something that can be flown at the local park, as well as water. With my track record of putting these seaplanes in the air, the local park will be par for the course.
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Old 06-20-2012, 04:43 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Bill G View Post
Thanks Rush and Pat.

..........With the issues I had molding the canopy using finishing resin versus molding reason, I'm glad I didn't go any larger.
A little tip that's worked well for me when molding: Window shrink film. It's sold as window insulation. You tape it on and shrink it with a hair dryer. Cheap and shrinks at a low temp.

1. Cover your foam mold with the film, tape down the underside.

2. Shrink it tight with hair dryer, not a heat gun that can damage the foam. A little steam from a kettle for the stubborn wrinkles.

3. Layup your glass and epoxy, the total you need all in one step. (I like MAS low viscosity resin and slow hardener). Leave some dry glass cloth around the perimeter of the mold to soak up any excess epoxy.

4. Wrap another layer of the window shrink film over the wet epoxy, tape it down and shrink that tight. You need the slow cure to allow the epoxy to level itself.

5. When everything has cured, take the outer film off. You'll be amazed how smooth the part is. No filling required. Even the inside of the part is smooth.

6. Depending on the shape of your part, the first layer of film protects the mold and you can use the mold again (great for nacelles and cowls on multis).

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Old 06-20-2012, 07:19 AM   #21
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Thanks Pat,
I may try that, as I still have the useful foam mold. As of now, it looks like my TP 3s-480 is in the ballpark of balancing the plane, but I may prefer being able to use a slightly larger battery, versus the canopy providing all the nose ballast. All the sheeting is complete, and it time to move onto my least favorite step: covering.


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Old 06-20-2012, 12:11 PM   #22
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Just checked out the German guys seaplane pics via your link Bill. Some excellent models there, I guess it helps when there are accessible lakes nearby.
Your point regarding smaller models is very valid as I'm finding the five foot span multies far more difficult to transport and they need more space to fly.
Small seaplanes are a great idea for so many reasons. Do they handle well on the water?

Barry
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by baz49exe View Post
Just checked out the German guys seaplane pics via your link Bill. Some excellent models there, I guess it helps when there are accessible lakes nearby.
Your point regarding smaller models is very valid as I'm finding the five foot span multies far more difficult to transport and they need more space to fly.
Small seaplanes are a great idea for so many reasons. Do they handle well on the water?

Barry
From what I've observed, it's more of a black art as to why they handle on water, than size. My AR196 was stable on the water, where one that was roughly 1/4 scale had severe torque tipping problems. I cheated the float span a bit, after seeing that. One concern with this one is how effective the rudders will be, as they are not extremely effective even when in the airpath. I've been tempted to cheat and add a water rudder, as the hull is just asking for it. The Wals built afterward have a rudder added at the rear edge of the lower keel. There's also a small fin protruding at the rear of the keel. I would probably be only 2mm deep, at this scale. It may add stability, but then again it may make it even harder to guide with the rudders.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:36 AM   #24
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Your experiences with the AR196 are very interesting Bill and are totally opposite to what I would have expected, from my perceived outcomes only , as I have no experience flying off water whatsoever.
As fresh water flying locations are so difficult to find around here, are likely to be of a small volume anyway and space restricted, small sounds very, very, attractive.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:25 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by baz49exe View Post
Your experiences with the AR196 are very interesting Bill and are totally opposite to what I would have expected, from my perceived outcomes only , as I have no experience flying off water whatsoever.
As fresh water flying locations are so difficult to find around here, are likely to be of a small volume anyway and space restricted, small sounds very, very, attractive.
I'm hoping if this and my recent 24" Beaver fly well in small areas, that I can fly them at the local pond at the town park. I'm not sure if they would go for it, however. I hear they weren't too happy with a guy the other week, who's dog was in there chasing geese. I'd have to watch out for the center area also, since there's a fountain in there.

All but the wing is now covered. I decided to add the rear hole in the fuse (presumable a seat) that this plane and latel Wals have. Mine is not very deep, as the control cables are in the way, but I'll probably just paint it flat black to clean up the appearance as much as possible. The glue job in the lower corner (floor) of the opening is a bit heavy, along with the covering not being picture perfect in there, which was all needed to make it watertight.


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