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Batteries & Chargers Discuss Li-P, Li-Ion, NiMh, Nicad battery technology and the chargers that juice 'em up!

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Old 07-21-2014, 01:20 AM   #1
dereckbc
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Default LiPo Favorites & Test Results

Hey guys just curious what you think are the best LiPo batteries out there. I am still a beginner RC Pilot but I have a couple of perks to bring to the hobby. One which is kind of irrelevant is I am a Private Pilot. But more to the point I am an Electrical Engineer with a PE and have over 30 years of power plant design. I have worked in the Telecom sector for the last 25 years and spent the first 8 years of my career working for an electric utility as a Sub Station Engineer. For the last 10 years I have been doing quite a bit of off-grid stand alone battery system design. Point is I have worked with about every battery manufacture there is for stationary batteries and 33 years of battery plant design and testing.

Anyway I have a lot of laboratory grade professional battery test equipment we use to load and capacity test. Extremely accurate and I have been doing some test on my batteries which is by no means extensive. In fact very limited to 3S 2100 to 3300 mah packs. With that said I have quite a few 2200 mah 30 C packs from different manufactures some of you might be familiar with. I have the Park Zone that came with my Extra 300 and Visionaire. A couple from Gens Ace, Two more from Glacier, Two from Hyperion, and and last Turnigy Nanoís.

In my observation the Park Zone and Turnigy Nano are pretty much junk. Neither have their rated mah capacity, can deliver their stated C discharge rate, and have significantly high internal resistance. After 20 to 30 cycles have lost 20% of their capacity from the start and internal resistance has increased 18 to 23%. Not good IMHO.

Hyperion seems pretty good. Not the top performer, but they meet rated specs. They actually gained capacity of about 5% after 10 cycles. After a year of use of 40 to 50 cycles they still have rated capacity and internal resistance has only risen about 5%. So Hyperion are good batteries IMO but the most expensive of the bunch. Just for the cost I will not be buying them again. One more not about Hyperion is the balance plug on a 3S is a 4S. You have to move the wires over 1 terminal to make them work in a balanced charger.

The top performers were a bit of a surprise to me, or at least a half surprise. The Gens Ace and Glacier batteries were the top performers in my lot and test results are almost identical. So close I am guessing Gens Ace make Glacier, but I do not know that for certain. Just an educated guess as they even look alike. Both are under rated specs. They started out around 2150 mah and after 5 to 6 cycles peaked out around 2350 mah. Both are claimed to be 30C, bu tin reality closer to 38C from testing. Their internal resistance is have of the second best Hyperion. IR on the packs is 11 milli-ohmís compared to the 20 to 22 on Hyperion. After a year of use and around 50 cycles on each they still meet spec. capacity has gone down to around 2250 mah, IR increased to 12 or 13 milli-ohms, and discharge rate down to around 32. Still exceeds specs one year later.

So to conclude the two top performers in my test is Gens Ace and Glacier. Both are excellent. But I choose Glacier to be the winner because of price. The Gens Ace is $27, and the Glacier is $22.

Hyperion is good, but too expensive of $32. Park Zone a complete rip off at $45, and Turnigy Nano the box it came in is worth more than the $18 battery that came in it.

So what are your favorites and why. Convince me and I will buy one and run the test on them.
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Old 07-21-2014, 02:31 AM   #2
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Here are my two favs. although I do like the Gens Ace ones too.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...63&postcount=5

The CHL batteries list some pretty high discharge rates, always wondered if they were "real" or not. Can't go wrong with either of them in terms of price.
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Old 07-21-2014, 03:12 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
The top performers were a bit of a surprise to me, or at least a half surprise. The Gens Ace and Glacier batteries were the top performers in my lot and test results are almost identical. So close I am guessing Gens Ace make Glacier, but I do not know that for certain. Just an educated guess as they even look alike. Both are under rated specs. They started out around 2150 mah and after 5 to 6 cycles peaked out around 2350 mah. Both are claimed to be 30C, bu tin reality closer to 38C from testing. Their internal resistance is have of the second best Hyperion. IR on the packs is 11 milli-ohm’s compared to the 20 to 22 on Hyperion. After a year of use and around 50 cycles on each they still meet spec. capacity has gone down to around 2250 mah, IR increased to 12 or 13 milli-ohms, and discharge rate down to around 32. Still exceeds specs one year later.

So to conclude the two top performers in my test is Gens Ace and Glacier. Both are excellent. But I choose Glacier to be the winner because of price. The Gens Ace is $27, and the Glacier is $22.

Hyperion is good, but too expensive of $32. Park Zone a complete rip off at $45, and Turnigy Nano the box it came in is worth more than the $18 battery that came in it.

So what are your favorites and why. Convince me and I will buy one and run the test on them.
Out of curiosity, what current levels were you placing on your battery packs for analysis? I've got the Western Mountain Analyzer that can load up to 100 Watts output. Western Mountain has available external electronic loads that can increase the capabilities to something like 1KW.

What voltage did you measure per cell, at what current levels?

I've been using those A123 cells in all of my electric models, with over 100 cells total. These cells put out 2.8 Volts at 35 Amps. They are about 35% heavier, about 35% larger in physical volume compared to a LiPo. But, properly handled, they don't seem to wear out.

I've got several packs with over 300 flights, over 5 years old that still turn the same motor with the same prop at the same RPM. When these cells get old, they loose Amp Hour capacity, but seem to still maintain the same voltage output at the same 35 Amps output. (Their internal resistance doesn't change)

IMHO, those A123's are a bit heavy for foamies, but I've been using them with models running from about 500 watts to 3KW.

FYI, it takes a four cell 2300 Mah A123 pack to replace a three cell LiPo pack. The A123 will put out very slightly more voltage at 30 Amps, at least on the packs I've checked.

A number of my club members are going to two cell A123's for receiver/servo power. They are using dual packs for reliability in their giant scale models, with one member using two 2S4P A123 packs in a model with 125 inch wingspan. They are an exact drop in to replace a 5 cell Nih battery pack. They hold 95% of their charge in storage mode over a year. As for receiver power, if they get shorted out, they will burn up all the servo wiring in the process. We had a shorted servo in a giant scale model airplane in a near by fun fly last year.

(I've also put a LOT of hours traveling around the USA and the world, working with the computerized controls for the HV circuit breakers the company I worked for manufactured. Main job I did was instruct customers on testing, service, repair, and some application theory on these breakers. Like coordination of a three phase substation breaker with a number of down line smaller single phase breakers along with HV fuses. I retired in 2008 after 45 years working with this stuff.)

Ref
http://www.radicalrc.com/category/A123-Cells-Packs-199
http://www.voltmanbatteries.com/serv...1-dsh-A/Detail
I've ordered and received a number of A123 cells from Voltmanbatteries, just having received a dozen of them last Friday. They come with spot welded tabs that are easily soldered. Without those tabs, it takes a special solder flux to solder to them.


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Old 07-21-2014, 03:30 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Porcia83 View Post
Here are my two favs. although I do like the Gens Ace ones too.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...63&postcount=5

The CHL batteries list some pretty high discharge rates, always wondered if they were "real" or not. Can't go wrong with either of them in terms of price.
Yeah
There is one battery Mfg with a claim of 150 C on their battery packs. That is 1200 Amps, on a pack with #12 wire on its lead outs. That #12 wire will melt at about 350 Amps. Before retiring, I've worked a lot with 1000 Ampere plus test currents. That kind of current requires copper conductor about 3/4 inch in diameter.

http://www.maxamps.com/proddetail.ph...C-Pack&cat=285

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Old 07-21-2014, 04:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Out of curiosity, what current levels were you placing on your battery packs for analysis?
25 C intially at start to weed out the failures like PZ and Turnigy. Then 30C to see Peuket effect, and 1C for rated mah capacity. FWIW going from 1C up to 30C showed less than 10% capacity difference.

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
I've got the Western Mountain Analyzer that can load up to 100 Watts output. Western Mountain has available external electronic loads that can increase the capabilities to something like 1KW.
I am using an Alber's BCT-2000/128 analyzer paired with Alber's Continuous Load Unit 7N. It can test up to 128 cells with as much as 600 amps in 1/10th amp increments. Regardless of the battery voltage or decay in voltage the current remain constant via microprocessor control in the BCT-2000.

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
What voltage did you measure per cell, at what current levels?
Well I guess that depends a bit on Depth of Discharge during the test and where internal resistance comes into play. To test battery xC ratin gI am looking for no more than 1 volt sag @ 55 amps. Test terminates when the first cell reaches 2.75 volts.

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
I've been using those A123 cells in all of my electric models, with over 100 cells total. These cells put out 2.8 Volts at 35 Amps. They are about 35% heavier, about 35% larger in physical volume compared to a LiPo.
Interesting I must be missing something. LiPo's have a specific energy density of about 80 to 100 wh/Kg and I think A123 cells are around 160 to 200 wh/Kg. I also think A123 has a higher energy density Wh / L. That would lead me to believe a A123 battery would be smaller and lighter for a given voltage and capacity. What am I missing here?
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Old 07-21-2014, 04:15 AM   #6
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No real testing... just anecdotal results.

Best life I have gotten has been from Sky LiPo Also best performance. 3 to 4 years service and in excess of 300 cycles per pack.
20C rated packs in series for 12S 5000 mah have delivered 105+ amps. (Melted down my wattmeter)

I have also had Polyquest, Turnigy, E-Flite Dynam and Thunder Power packs. Polyquest was a long time ago... survived one year and less than 30 cycles. Most recent Turnigy was about 6 years ago and only survived 2 year and about 100 cycles. I consider the Dynam packs to be failed on delivery. Thunder Power, also more than 6 years ago did survive close to 3 years and over 200 cycles.
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Old 07-21-2014, 05:52 AM   #7
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Even if. the hobbyking $6 battery lasts half as long, they are still worth the price.

i bought 5 25c 2200mah batteries a year and a half ago. still using them all several times i forgot to discharge them for a few months and they still work fine. I've pulled over 450 watts out of them without sagging too much for 30+ seconds.

overall, i can sre why hobbyking sells so many batteries.

slow stock prop reversal. it flies! easily! 543 watt dual motor bipe slow stick. push-me-pull-you. 242 watt 3 channel slow stick. 365 watt mini ultra stick. 415 watt mini contender. 810 watt ultra stick .25e. 220 watt alpha 450 sport (retired).
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:43 AM   #8
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[QUOTE=dereckbc;953688]25 C intially at start to weed out the failures like PZ and Turnigy. Then 30C to see Peuket effect, and 1C for rated mah capacity. FWIW going from 1C up to 30C showed less than 10% capacity difference.



I am using an Alber's BCT-2000/128 analyzer paired with Alber's Continuous Load Unit 7N. It can test up to 128 cells with as much as 600 amps in 1/10th amp increments. Regardless of the battery voltage or decay in voltage the current remain constant via microprocessor control in the BCT-2000.


Well I guess that depends a bit on Depth of Discharge during the test and where internal resistance comes into play. To test battery xC ratin gI am looking for no more than 1 volt sag @ 55 amps. Test terminates when the first cell reaches 2.75 volts.



Interesting I must be missing something. LiPo's have a specific energy density of about 80 to 100 wh/Kg and I think A123 cells are around 160 to 200 wh/Kg. I also think A123 has a higher energy density Wh / L. That would lead me to believe a A123 battery would be smaller and lighter for a given voltage and capacity. What am I missing here?[/QUOTE

Lipos definitely have a higher energy per weight than a123 cells. Will have to check those numbers later this am.

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Old 07-21-2014, 07:53 AM   #9
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I'm not sure how old and what c rating your Nanos were? I've had poor results from older 25c Nanos, they performed poorly from new and went down hill quickly. On the other hand I've recently picked up some 65c Nanos and they are performing excellently. They have the lowest internal resistance of any battery I've owned and the least voltage drop in use.
The price of Nanos is very good too so price wise the 65c Nanos directly compare with 25-30c Gens Ace or Glacier, so I think it's a fair comparison.


So my conclusion is not all Nanos can be 'tarred with the same brush'. Plus I think it's only fair to compare batteries of similar cost, not necessarily similar c rate.

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Old 07-21-2014, 03:00 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
The price of Nanos is very good too so price wise the 65c Nanos directly compare with 25-30c Gens Ace or Glacier, so I think it's a fair comparison.

So my conclusion is not all Nanos can be 'tarred with the same brush'. Plus I think it's only fair to compare batteries of similar cost, not necessarily similar c rate.
Steve with all due respect comparing a 65C battery to a 30C battery is comparing apples to oranges. Is it not fair if you buy a battery of say 2200 mah @ 30C you should expect to have at least those minimum specs regardless of price point?

All I concluded was from a very limited test pool that the Turnigy and Park Zone were over rated and did not meet published specs.
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Old 07-21-2014, 05:12 PM   #11
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Default China Hoby Line

Not much luck with Nanotech's.

Really like China Hobby Line. Great prices, US warehouse, free, fast shipping on orders over $40, and they even include a small gift like a pair of aa's. www.chinahobbyline.com Batteries is all they do.

I also like the Glaciers(EP Buddy) and Admirals (Motionrc)

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Old 07-21-2014, 05:18 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Steve with all due respect comparing a 65C battery to a 30C battery is comparing apples to oranges. Is it not fair if you buy a battery of say 2200 mah @ 30C you should expect to have at least those minimum specs regardless of price point?
We all have our views but on this I don't agree. Personally I don't care what c number written on the wrapper. It's what I pay and how it performs (and how it lasts) that are all I care about.

If it makes you feel that it's a fairer comparison put a sticker over the 65c and write on 30c. It's just numbers, all that matters is what you pay and how it performs.

I'm still undecided on Nanos, like i said I've had some (25c rated) that were very poor and didn't last more than 20-30 cycles. But these new 65c nanos are excellent so far, best performing batteries I've had, and their price is good too.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:00 PM   #13
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The Nanos seem to be all over the map. I think the cells must come from different places....something. Some seem to do OK, others are just plain bad cells no matter how they are measured.

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Old 07-23-2014, 01:29 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Interesting I must be missing something. LiPo's have a specific energy density of about 80 to 100 wh/Kg and I think A123 cells are around 160 to 200 wh/Kg. I also think A123 has a higher energy density Wh / L. That would lead me to believe a A123 battery would be smaller and lighter for a given voltage and capacity. What am I missing here?
I just did some checking on those A123's. Each cell is good for about 2.3 Ampere Hours, with a 3 Volt DC output. That is 6.9 Watt Hours. At 2.5 Ounces per cell, that comes out to 97 Watt Hours Per Kg.

Going up to a 35 Amp load, these cells put out about 2.8 Volts DC. Their output voltage is pretty much flat through the entire discharge curve. At 35 Amps, that comes out to about 91 Watt Hours per Kg.

Methinks any good LiPo battery is perhaps 40-50 percent better than that.

Which is why I was wondering what output voltage those LiPo batteries have at a 20C load current. That voltage output also affects the Watt Hour rating at higher currents. Do you have any discharge curves on the better quality LiPo battery packs with about 2200 Mah ratings?

Just curious.

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Old 07-23-2014, 01:46 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
I just did some checking on those A123's. Each cell is good for about 2.3 Ampere Hours, with a 3 Volt DC output. That is 6.9 Watt Hours. At 2.5 Ounces per cell, that comes out to 97 Watt Hours Per Kg.

Going up to a 35 Amp load, these cells put out about 2.8 Volts DC. Their output voltage is pretty much flat through the entire discharge curve. At 35 Amps, that comes out to about 91 Watt Hours per Kg.

Methinks any good LiPo battery is perhaps 40-50 percent better than that.
Highest density I have is the Glacier 2200 mah (24.2 wh) weighs in at 185 grams, or 130 wh/Kg. I think what is throwing me is you are talking about cylindrical cells with a Steel casing? I think that is what i smaking the density so low. A123 cells are some of the highest density on the market but I think those are referring to Pouch and Prismatic cells. To bad they went belly up and no longer make anything. .

Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Which is why I was wondering what output voltage those LiPo batteries have at a 20C load current. That voltage output also affects the Watt Hour rating at higher currents. Do you have any discharge curves on the better quality LiPo battery packs with about 2200 Mah ratings?
Yeah if I can figure out how to convert the files. The program gives both wh and ah. As with any battery watt hours is determined b

Here is a chart that shows specific energy densities of the various chemistry.

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Old 07-23-2014, 04:51 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
I think what is throwing me is you are talking about cylindrical cells with a Steel casing? I think that is what i smaking the density so low. A123 cells are some of the highest density on the market but I think those are referring to Pouch and Prismatic cells. To bad they went belly up and no longer make anything. .
A123 2300 Mah 26650 cells are still being made, and are readily available. I've been buying mine from www.voltmanbatteries.com. These cells come with spot welded tabs that are readily soldered.
http://www.voltmanbatteries.com/serv...1-dsh-A/Detail

Trying to solder directly to the cell takes a special solder flux that is not readily available. It also requires a temperature regulated 100 watt soldering iron. (NOT a soldering gun!)

The A123 web site refers to this company for buying cells. They've got a very good price at $9.75 each, but, again, without the soldering tabs.
http://www.buya123batteries.com/ANR2...300475-306.htm

As for the A123 cell case, I believe they are made from aluminum, not steel. The top and bottom of these cells have a very thin solderable plating on them for soldering, but that plating is very easily damaged during the soldering process, making the cell very difficult to save. That's why I spend the extra $2 each for the spot welded tabs.

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