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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 09-21-2010, 05:17 PM   #1
guapoman2000
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Default Space Shuttle Depron Foam 64mm EDF - Scratch

Yes, this is not your ordinary EDF JET but, it will be powered by an Electric Ducted Fan unit of 64mm and 4-Cell, Li-POLYs.

It spans 26 inches so, it is a pretty good size model scale wise.

A friend "gave" this model to me and I will be enhancing it to allow for:

1. Wing Airfoil to allow for better lift and Glide Slope qualities.
2. Adjust EDF location to allow for a more forward Center-Of-Gravity.
3. Adjust the Main landing gear to allow rotation on Rise-Off-Ground (ROG).
4. Incorporate some cheater holes on each side of the FUSE (more like recessed panels going inwards) right in front of the EDF.

This model is not available by anyone and it was a (in my opinion) failed project gone bad due to the lack of communication between the designer and people he involved himself to make the airframe.

As an Aerospace Engineer working at Kennedy Space Center and who have worked on numerous Avionic systems on the Space Shuttle, I dislike many items on "As-Is" model given to me, however, in honor of the Space Shuttle and it's enormous contribution to USA and the world partner counties, I am going to "attempt" to save this model and have it fly in a manner that will honor it's name! There is another person posting his review on the "AS-IS" model and will be posting it's flight characteristics which from his accounts are very poor.

I am not looking for anyone to come here and discuss PAST HISTORY and notice that I am not naming any particular outfit or other names here so, please resist coming here to discuss any past history accounts!

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Old 09-21-2010, 07:58 PM   #2
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Hi
This looks very interesting
Take care
Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:19 PM   #3
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Hi Carlos, nice looking Shuttle!

Wishing you all the best in getting this in the air. I shall be following along. It does look very nice flying around!

Pat Gagnon
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:11 PM   #4
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Hi guys!

Nice to be back in the saddle and trying to do something that challenges your mind and skill.

I posted a very early picture and the model in my hands have already been assembled minus the power system.

The model has been glide tested without the Airfoil (Flat Wing) only and it did float in because the entire Airframe "is" indeed very light and was amazed on how it glided in like a piece of paper.

I am hoping that I can improve it's flying characteristics using a formed Wing Airfoil instead of trying to fly it with the Flat Airfoil as someone else already has.

Tonight, if I can escape those home duties, I will post additional pictures of where this project is actually is at.

Thanks for the comments.
Carlos
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Old 09-23-2010, 04:25 AM   #5
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Exclamation Progressing ...

Hi Guys!

Today, I was not feeling 100% so, I stayed home and right about late in the afternoon all rested and energized I went right into the Space Shuttle Project.

First, I took out my notes from what I disucssed with Mark (co-worker, real pilot and Flight Crew Engineer Member) about the Airfoil top location, slope and other technical data about Wing Airfoil.

For a scale off of 26 inch wing span the top (highest point) should be a little more than one (1) inch but, I really did not want to create too much drag so, I decided to use no more than 3/4 of an inch as the highest point where the top wing assemblies would rest and this highest point is a few inches behind the Center of Gravity mark.

Okay, here is a few pictures showing the progress and I am happy to announce that it is looking like the Space Shuttle.

Cutting out the Top Wing Panel:



Panel Weigh-In:






Stand-Off foam Airfoil former at the Root location:














Top Left Wing being glued down:
















Top Right Wing Panel Being Glued down:






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Old 09-23-2010, 04:37 AM   #6
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Hi Carlos
Glad your feeling better
That is turning out quite well
For some reason though i couldnt say why the area where the propellent tanks for the orbital maneuvering engines are located looks odd or out of proportion to me
Take care
Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 09-23-2010, 04:46 AM   #7
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Hi Hank,

I did not make or assemble those propellent tanks, the orbital maneuvering engines.

When I go to make the nozzels, I will get to those and verify.

Thanks!
Carlos
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Old 09-23-2010, 04:57 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
Hi Hank,

I did not make or assemble those propellent tanks, the orbital maneuvering engines.

When I go to make the nozzels, I will get to those and verify.

Thanks!
Carlos
Hi Carlos
Like i said i can tell why its just when i look at them they seem odd
Check out the 3 view and see what you think
Take care
Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:03 AM   #9
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Hank,

Like I said in the very first post of this thread, I am not going to concern myself with other aspects of this AS-IS model given to me, just to make it flyable, however, thanks again.

Carlos
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:09 AM   #10
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Smile More Progress!

Hi there again guys!

Could not sleep so, went back to finish the leading edge gap openings on both wings using left over 5mm foam board material.

Some 5-minute epoxy and then, a little sanding is all that was needed.
Of course, I plan to use some ORACAL 561 intermediate Adhesive Film to dress up the entire leading edge of wings.

As usual, some more pictures.

Leading edge wing piece:


















After a little Sanding:




Right Wing Leading Edge being glued in:







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Old 09-23-2010, 10:40 AM   #11
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Thumbs up Just gluing in some fill gap and wings are finished!

Just cutting smaller pieces of foam board to fill in the small gaps at the leading edges and thereby, the wings with an Airfoil is finished!

I just came across this large picture of Space Shuttle Discovery which shows how pronounced the Airfoil is on the Full Size Space Shuttle. I am happy with my results in providing an Airfoil to this "AS-IS" Space Shuttle model as I did not want to have too much drag and other unwanted results.

Here is Space Shuttle Discovery!
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:31 PM   #12
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Smile Finally Finished the Wing Airfoil Modification!

Well, I finally finished the Airfoil Wing Modification on this "AS-IS" EDF Space Shuttle Model that was given to me.

Note that I used ORACAL Intermediate 651 Cell Adhesive Film for the Leading Edges to hide the imperfections that light Sanding could not take away.













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Old 09-23-2010, 03:47 PM   #13
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Cool project guapo. I scratch built this one outta Dow blue foam . But it crashed on maiden due to a bad bec wire plug.
It was powered with a 90mm edf and a 5 cell battery. We bugee launched it and it was flying till the bec lost power and it went in. I've wanted to rebuild it and try again. So maybe your thread will motivate me. Here's the video of the 1st flight attempt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPxkLQgKRFQ


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THE B-2 Worlds most expensive airplane.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:58 PM   #14
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Thumbs up Working on the Duct for EDF maximum Efficiency!

Discussing this project with a very knowledgeable Pilot, Engineer, RC Modeler here at the Space Center (Peter F. Richiuso P.E., Mechanical Engineer, Materials Science Division, Mechanical Failure Analysis Branch)

Discussion Results:
My next step is to incorporate a single or twin tubes that will reside inside the Space Shuttle Payload Area instead of allowing the "AIR" Flow to just blow everywhere inside the Payload Bay Area which causes lots of turbulence as a result of having the Air feed to bump inside a large square cavity. Also, the Upper Payload Bay Door panel with the slit holes will make matters worse as Air will just enter without any directional flow and will cause lots of uneven "Air" feed.

Option 1: Is to close the Top Payload Bay Area completely and force Air (Air Feed) to the EDF unit via an enclosed enclosure coming from the bottom of the FUSE. This Enclosure will be setup with Nylon Mesh screen (Double Filter Mesh) to protect the EDF unit from any debris coming from Ground during Rise-Of-Ground Runway operations.

Option 2: Is to make a careful twin holes at the frontal bottom end of the FUSE and make screen mesh squares to make it look like Reactive Control System (Thrusters) and painted BLACK. Interior wise they will be attached with twin round or Square 3mm Depron foam construction to feed forces Air Flow towards the back to the EDF for maximum Efficiency and built a Y-housing somewhere almost near the EDF.

Lots of ideas but, the two above will provide a much better Setup than the Raw Power levels to off set the internal random Air Flow inside the large Payload Bay Area that many have been forced to use.

Oh, yes Peter told me that he can make me a double axle Nose Gear setup should I find one that is steerable.

More to come soon!
Carlos
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
Discussing this project with a very knowledgeable Pilot, Engineer, RC Modeler here at the Space Center (Peter F. Richiuso P.E., Mechanical Engineer, Materials Science Division, Mechanical Failure Analysis Branch)

Discussion Results:
My next step is to incorporate a single or twin tubes that will reside inside the Space Shuttle Payload Area instead of allowing the "AIR" Flow to just blow everywhere inside the Payload Bay Area which causes lots of turbulence as a result of having the Air feed to bump inside a large square cavity. Also, the Upper Payload Bay Door panel with the slit holes will make matters worse as Air will just enter without any directional flow and will cause lots of uneven "Air" feed.

Option 1: Is to close the Top Payload Bay Area completely and force Air (Air Feed) to the EDF unit via an enclosed enclosure coming from the bottom of the FUSE. This Enclosure will be setup with Nylon Mesh screen (Double Filter Mesh) to protect the EDF unit from any debris coming from Ground during Rise-Of-Ground Runway operations.

Option 2: Is to make a careful twin holes at the frontal bottom end of the FUSE and make screen mesh squares to make it look like Reactive Control System (Thrusters) and painted BLACK. Interior wise they will be attached with twin round or Square 3mm Depron foam construction to feed forces Air Flow towards the back to the EDF for maximum Efficiency and built a Y-housing somewhere almost near the EDF.

Lots of ideas but, the two above will provide a much better Setup than the Raw Power levels to off set the internal random Air Flow inside the large Payload Bay Area that many have been forced to use.

Oh, yes Peter told me that he can make me a double axle Nose Gear setup should I find one that is steerable.

More to come soon!
Carlos
Nevermind! I did notice that the walls of the Space Shuttle FUSE are pretty thin (3mm) and if I do place a ducting of somekind this may create a valcuum inside the FUSE and walls may fail.

Placing the intake at the bottom will certainly keep the model on the ground longer as it is sucking at the bottom! Duh! It will be a good race car, however!

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Old 09-24-2010, 05:40 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Alpea42 View Post
Cool project guapo. I scratch built this one outta Dow blue foam . But it crashed on maiden due to a bad bec wire plug.
It was powered with a 90mm edf and a 5 cell battery. We bugee launched it and it was flying till the bec lost power and it went in. I've wanted to rebuild it and try again. So maybe your thread will motivate me. Here's the video of the 1st flight attempt.

Alpea42,

I do hope you repair this large Space Shuttle soon! Looks terrific!
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:45 AM   #17
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Default Working on the Shuttle again!

Today at work, I was tongue lashed because I did not provide enough Leading Edge roundness throughout the Wing Leading Edge on the model so, I just got back from the Hobby Store and purchased two sized balsa leading edge sections and will start my re-work soon.

The whole reason for an Airfoil was for lift but, if I do not provide a round enough Leading Edge on the wings all that is thrown away as the air will be disrupted instead of going over the wing in a smooth manner.



Great news!

I was able to find some higher grit sand paper along with some tools to clean cut the Triangle stock balsa pieces that I bought from the hobby store today.

The better news is that using this higher Grit Sand paper, I was able to round the existing Foam all along the Leading Edge of the wing assembly and this turned out better than anticipated as I had thought that I would need to glue in yet another piece such as the Triangle Balsa Stock all along the leading edge and it turned out not needed.

I have taken some pictures showing how well this Foam board that I bought at Bob's hobby Center here in Orlando, Florida acts when sand paper and the forming of the edges turned out better than expected.
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:48 AM   #18
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Default EDF Comparison

did have time tonight to tinker with two EDF's. One is from Freewing, 64mm EDF with Motor and the other is from StarMax, 70m EDF with motor.

I am posting the weigh-in differences of both and feel that the 70mm is a better deal for the additional of 1 oz. more not withstanding the Foam cage on the 70mm from StarMax.

I did notice that the Freewing EDF unit housing is somewhat flimsy and the blades do make contact when you hold the housing. Also, the StarMax 70mm EDF came with a 50-AMP ESC and with an Exteral BEC!


Here is the FreeWing 64mm:






Here is the StarMax 70mm Ducted Fan Unit
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Old 09-24-2010, 11:10 PM   #19
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Thumbs up

Like I posted earlier, the foam board and the foam that came with this RC Model accepted to be sanded without any issues and the foam did not crumble or tear. As such, I was able to shape the entire wing leading edge all around with a capable round shape to allow smooth Air Flow over the wings.

I noticed that I had to provide additional filler and more 5-minute epoxy in some areas so, I am happy that I did go back and re-checked the wing assemblies!

A few pictures as promised:





















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Old 09-24-2010, 11:11 PM   #20
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Exclamation Final Assembly!

Tonight, the final assembly of Elevons, EDF, ESC, and most importantly the Dimension Engineering Park BEC will be installed as I just did not see any external BEC provided with the Electronics of this model?

I mean after all the work done on this model, the last thing on my mind is to crash it because of an overheated onboard BEC of the supplied ESC (Freewing).

Mark (the other person who received this model "AS-IS" without any instructions forwarded me the pictures of his installation and I am thinking that since I have a Wing Airfoil, I can install the Elevon Servos underneath the wing at the rear to cut down on those very long metal push rods.

I am aiming to maiden this model that I have modified and still modifying by Sunday morning at our RC Club with asphalt runway (500 feet X 50 Feet). I am sure that I would not be needing all that runway but, on a maiden you can never tell.

I am certain that using the StarMax 70mm EDF is better than using the Freewing 64mm EDF as this model needs thrust rather than airspeed. I have seen many nice EDF "Jets" use the 64mm and they scream but, this Space Shuttle model requires all the thrust it can get and reason why I have opted to use the StarMax 70mm EDF unit that came with my StarMax F5-E Electric EDF Jet.

Hoping to make lots of progress tonight!
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Old 09-25-2010, 05:43 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
Tonight, the final assembly of Elevons, EDF, ESC, and most importantly the Dimension Engineering Park BEC will be installed as I just did not see any external BEC provided with the Electronics of this model?

I mean after all the work done on this model, the last thing on my mind is to crash it because of an overheated onboard BEC of the supplied ESC (Freewing).

Mark (the other person who received this model "AS-IS" without any instructions forwarded me the pictures of his installation and I am thinking that since I have a Wing Airfoil, I can install the Elevon Servos underneath the wing at the rear to cut down on those very long metal push rods.

I am aiming to maiden this model that I have modified and still modifying by Sunday morning at our RC Club with asphalt runway (500 feet X 50 Feet). I am sure that I would not be needing all that runway but, on a maiden you can never tell.

I am certain that using the StarMax 70mm EDF is better than using the Freewing 64mm EDF as this model needs thrust rather than airspeed. I have seen many nice EDF "Jets" use the 64mm and they scream but, this Space Shuttle model requires all the thrust it can get and reason why I have opted to use the StarMax 70mm EDF unit that came with my StarMax F5-E Electric EDF Jet.

Hoping to make lots of progress tonight!
Hi good choice to go for the 70mm EDF. The 64mm EDF are known to be flimsy and I have chalk up quite a bit of broken blade in mid flight on records.

Cheers
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Old 09-26-2010, 02:14 AM   #22
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Default More Progress

Wow!

A Busy day for sure! Worked on the Shuttle until 11:00am and then the pounding at my door to do the family thing! In record time, I was able to take the family out to get food, run erands and other stuff. I even avoided an Ugly Auto Accident from someone cutting two lanes of traffic and went right in front of me without any visible sign that this person was concern of T-Boning them! I slammed on my brakes and turned the steerring wheel gently and came to rest on the shoulder and near the sidewalk in front of a very large and busy Orlando, Florida Mall. I am sure this person did not see me "or" they were on the Freaking Cell Phone!

Speaking of Steerng, I have completed the Nose Wheel Steering for this Space Shuttle "AS-IS" model. A few of you may know where I took it from and none other from the FMS Large EPO P-51D Mustang 57-Inch Wing Span (Foamie). I took the Tail wheel assemly out from the AirFrame ONLY version that I had lying around and dissassemble it to remove and rid of the Heavy Plastic housing and usig the Strut portion and installed a new Servo for nose Wheel Steering. I inserted the entire assembly into a custom FOAM housing as this saved me a little over 1 oz. of weight because I did not use the heavy plastic housing that comes with this tail wheel assy. I am just super pleased in how it all came in place and Made a Video of it in action. Oh, the Nose Wheel has two wheels using a T-Connector setup, I made this custom on my own!

Since I took the bottom FUSE piece out in order to install the nose Wheel steering assembly, I have gone to make a DUCT from all the way in the NOSE (Where the Reactive Control System - RCS) is located as this is a line of sight into the EDF! I am making a housing to be glued from the inside where Four small (1/2 inch each) holes where made at the frontal FUSE to be used as a collector intake (inrush) feed and one single tube being attached to this collector. An extension tube(s) will be secured with foam formers and this will make the Space Shuttle "AS-IS" Model into the close feed setup like the F-86 EDF Jet, one solid feed into the EDF will greatly enhance the efficiency!

I have also made my own Main Gear struts and used strong yet thin and light weight wire and the only wheels that I found to spin without a Whobble was some old GWS 1.5 inch diameter wheels. The supplied wheels are just too small and the red plastic insert made them whobble something Ugy! The Wire for the Main Gear was a JOKE! I threw them away in a hear beat!

I am still working so, I will upload the Video and lots of Pictures later as I do not want to slow down with the PROGRESS!

Carlos
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Old 09-26-2010, 04:35 AM   #23
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Carlos,

Let me guess, Sand Lake and OBT? One thing I DON'T miss about Orlando, the idiot drivers.

Hope you finish it soon!

Pat Gagnon
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Old 09-26-2010, 09:01 AM   #24
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just seen this thread! absolutley brilliant! great work!

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Old 09-28-2010, 05:23 PM   #25
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Thumbs up Sept. 27th, 2010

It has been a Marathon "Scratch Build" Session over here in Orlando, Florida! All this including detailing my car myself, fixed a few things around the house, went out to get more food etc..! I even flew Sunday morning with my Sky Bro, Gerry (Simano) who came to the House the looked over the Space Shuttle.

This model was given to me by Gerry which came with lots of Dupro Products to complete it.

Well, I would not use those Plastic Bullet style Hinges as this "is" a foam model and I have used Computer Floppy disk material with great success in the past and no different now!




Now, while the hinge material cured, I wasted no time and make he necessary cutting into the Foam to install some E-Flite S-60 Servos I had lying around!





Using 3M Double Sticky Tape made things very easy!



Finish Product, No messy Push Rods inside the FUSE etc...etc...

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