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Old 04-07-2012, 08:32 AM   #1
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Default Lets Discuss Flaps...

I have a fairly modded E-Flight Apprentice that I am ready to add flaps to. I have it set up with a Spektrum DX8 now, and have been utilizing "Flaperons" via programming. I am looking at 2 styles of flaps.

1.) Conventional flaps that are very much just like an inner set of ailerons that are operated down as a pair...

2.) And the type that I have seen on some planes that are like an added flap on the bottom of the wing that flip down, but are not an actual cut out of the wing. They are more like just adding a wall that flips down to add drag, but the original wing stays the same.

Thoughts on this?
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:27 PM   #2
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are you referring to split flaps? These type of flaps actually still make up the under side of a wing but technically "split" from the wing to create the drag forces. Plain flaps would probably be your easiest to build into the plane and will perform just fine.

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Old 04-07-2012, 12:36 PM   #3
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Split flaps are designed to make lots of drag in addition to increasing lift, sort of an airbrake and flap combined.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:50 PM   #4
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NFA Fabrication
It surely depends on what you want the flaps to do.
The conventional flap alters the camber of the wing section. At a low angles (up to 20 degrees) the lift is increased significantly but not the drag. At angles over 45 degrees the drag increases with little further increase in lift.
So these types of flap will reduce the stall speed but until the angle is big enough will not allow a steep approach. At low angles they can also be used to reduce the take off speed. Modern airliners have very complicated versions of these flaps.

The split flap acts more like an air brake than a lift increasing device so is used to increase the angle of approach on a 'slippery' airframe where reducing the stall speed is not required. The Spitfire used a split flap that dropped to almost 90 degrees simply to create drag to allow a reasonably steep approach. It only reduced the stall speed by a few knots.
The split flap simply added to the bottom of the wing is just a 'poor man's' version.

There is also a 'Junkers' type flap which is a small aerofoil suspended beneath the trailing edge. Very effective but of course it adds drag all the time. The JU52 used this type of flap and even its ailerons where done like this as well.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:10 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by quorneng View Post
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It surely depends on what you want the flaps to do...
The Apprentice has plenty of lift, even slow. I'd like to just slow the plane down for the most part. It glides so easily, it likes to keep speed, making smaller runway landings a challenge some time.
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Old 04-08-2012, 12:46 AM   #6
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If the apprentice has plenty of lift and can fly slowly it does sound as if you are not making best use of the plane characteristics.
It takes quite a bit of practise to fly slowly and accurately but when mastered spot landings are no longer such a challenge.
Flaps will not improve you ability to land smoothly but rather to make a difficult landing possible.
All you can do is try and see.
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Old 04-08-2012, 02:52 AM   #7
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Part of it is wanting to experiment with flaps, and sometimes I am flying where I have a limited runway. Plus I like adding gadgets....
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Old 04-08-2012, 03:52 AM   #8
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+1 on the split flap comments. For a lightly loaded wing, split laps will add the drag you need to bleed of speed quickly which is what it sounds like you want to do. They are very easy to try out too. Tape hinge sheet balsa to the underside of your wings and try out different sizes. You can try 20% chord wide and 30% span to start.

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Old 04-08-2012, 12:53 PM   #9
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Here's the flap arrangement from a Cessna 195.
Not much added lift, but a fair amount of drag.


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Old 04-08-2012, 02:15 PM   #10
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I have had a number of RC planes with true flaps but there were 4 were they were decently fun.
  • Air Tractor 802f
  • Alfa P47
  • T-34
  • Ultra Stick
  • Beaver
  • Sr. Telemaster Plus

The AT802F was a blast as this was the only RC model I had that did not have a pitch change with flaps. Zero, none nada zilch. It was amazing! Withe the high aspect ratio wing it was a slow lander anyway. But it was fun to play.

The Beaver was a blast and it slowed the plane well and created lots of drag. They also nearly completely blanked out the ailerons so you will need to know how to use the rudder for sure!

The Alfa just didn't need them it was light and slow anyway.

The T-34 was OK but again did not make too much difference - it slowed OK.

The Ultra Stick was a kick but I never set up quad flaps. That is where the ailerons go up and the flaps down and you really can have some fun! This is sometimes called butterfly.

The SR Telemaster is a kick in the pants. I can deploy them at the end of the runway with 45 degrees I point at the end of the runway and it just points right down without gaining significant speed. Then you rotate out, add some power and do a landing right on the spot.

You MUST manage power with flaps and deal the the other stuff. The Telemaster like the Beaver have very little aileron authority when they are deployed more than about 15 degrees. Rudder is your friend. Power is your friend. So is elevator to flap mixing.

I think the Apprentice does not really need them, but as you point out it is fun to play with them and see what you get. I say go for it. You don't really need the complexity of split flaps, just cut a nice wide swath from the TE and go for it!

But be ready for mixing and the lack of aileron authority.

Mike
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:01 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post

But be ready for mixing and the lack of aileron authority.

Mike
Yeah, I figure it will at least be better than the "Flaperons" I have programmed into my DX8 now, I lose a ton of aileron control (To be expected with that set-up). I figure it can only be better if the control surfaces doing the slowing are moved inboard on the wing, and I have full movement of my ailerons again!
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:24 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by NFA Fabrication View Post
Yeah, I figure it will at least be better than the "Flaperons" I have programmed into my DX8 now, I lose a ton of aileron control (To be expected with that set-up). I figure it can only be better if the control surfaces doing the slowing are moved inboard on the wing, and I have full movement of my ailerons again!
I've tried those flaperons on several of my models. With the typical somewhat narrow ailerons, IMHO those flaperons are of limited use. And as you indicate you might also have difficulty with aileron control at slow flying speeds.

Two of my models have the true flaps, one is the Great Planes Giant Big Stick, second is the Hanger 9 P51.

The P51 flaps do help a little, but not enough to really stand out. The flaps on that Giant Big Stick however, REALLY makes a big difference. This model already can really slow down for a landing, but when the flaps are at full deflection, this Big Stick can litterally land and come to a stop in less than 20 feet. Take off's are again about 20-30 feet with the flaps at 1/2 deflection. That with a Hacker A60-16M, 19X12 prop, 12S2P A123 cells, and a model that weighs in at 16 pounds.

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Old 04-09-2012, 12:17 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by NFA Fabrication View Post
Yeah, I figure it will at least be better than the "Flaperons" I have programmed into my DX8 now, I lose a ton of aileron control (To be expected with that set-up). I figure it can only be better if the control surfaces doing the slowing are moved inboard on the wing, and I have full movement of my ailerons again!
Using flaperons on outboard ailerons moves the center of stall of the wing toward the tip - very bad!

Thankfully you were trying that on a Apprentice. Other plane may have rewarded you with a nice snap. I would not advise that in the future.

The blanking of the ailerons with the use of inboard flaps it is a bit of a strange thing. I am not sure what is happening with the aerodynamics.

I understand the slower speed makes the surfaces less effective but it seems like more than that is going on. Perhaps someone will chime in.

Mike
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
The blanking of the ailerons with the use of inboard flaps it is a bit of a strange thing. I am not sure what is happening with the aerodynamics.

Mike
Yeah
That Giant Big Stick with the flaps down at 45 degrees leaves the ailerons in full control, right down to the stall, and past the stall.

This same model will easily do snap rolls, spins and any other sort of similar manuver.

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Old 04-23-2012, 09:52 AM   #15
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I am all for experimenting with flaps.
Quite small (40") & light (17oz) but with relatively small ailerons (1/3 span) leaving room for decent sized flaps. They are fully proportional from 0 to 70 degrees.
This video gives an idea of the difference they make to the way it flies.
A gentle belly landing that stops in it own length.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:23 PM   #16
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Due to this being a bit of an experiment, I have chosen to start by testing this style of flap. Mostly because it is the least invasive on the wing mods, making it easier to try a different style next if I so choose. The flap panel is made out of some fiberglass I laid up, it is very flat, rigid, and light. I used 2 Du-Bro hinges to attach the flap to to the wing. Waiting on servo's to show up, and need to make or get some control horns. Will post results...



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Old 04-24-2012, 12:42 AM   #17
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Why not just use flapperons? I have no experiance with the apprentice, but my alpha has flaperoins. They work well, do not balloon upwords and increase lift. Stall is much slower, but requires much more power to keep the plane moving forwards and off the ground. Makes the aleroins less touchy. I can fly the plane the exact same or slower without them by using up elevator and landing nose up. They do greatley reduce top speed and help climb. They also do not change stalling characteristics and make the rudder slightly more resposive.
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Old 04-24-2012, 02:56 AM   #18
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Split flaps are not just to create drag. They are more effective at increasing the coefficient than a plain flap, but not as good as a Fowler flaps. Keep in mind that the first 50% of a flap range creates more than 50% of an increase in lift while the last 50% creates more than 50% of drag.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:35 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
Why not just use flapperons? I have no experiance with the apprentice, but my alpha has flaperoins. They work well, do not balloon upwords and increase lift. Stall is much slower, but requires much more power to keep the plane moving forwards and off the ground. Makes the aleroins less touchy. I can fly the plane the exact same or slower without them by using up elevator and landing nose up. They do greatley reduce top speed and help climb. They also do not change stalling characteristics and make the rudder slightly more resposive.
I initially tried Flaperons, the Apprentice wing was not a fan. The ailerons become completely useless will less "Flaperon" added than you'd think. I have a DX8 and was able to program 2 levels of Flaperon, and it just upset the plane way too much. I am thinking this will be much better, as I retain full aileron travel, and move my "Braking" inboard away from where the wing has most control (Outer edges). Plus i like experimenting...
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:11 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
Why not just use flapperons? I have no experiance with the apprentice, but my alpha has flaperoins. They work well, do not balloon upwords and increase lift. Stall is much slower, but requires much more power to keep the plane moving forwards and off the ground. Makes the aleroins less touchy. I can fly the plane the exact same or slower without them by using up elevator and landing nose up. They do greatley reduce top speed and help climb. They also do not change stalling characteristics and make the rudder slightly more resposive.
Methinks it all depends on the model. I've tried flapperons on a Showtime 50, worked OK. Then tried flapperons on a 78 inch electric Extra, flapperons made landings very dicey, fly to slow and it would really drop a wing. Bent up the landing gear a couple of times doing it.

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Old 04-24-2012, 05:25 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by NFA Fabrication View Post
I initially tried Flaperons, the Apprentice wing was not a fan. The ailerons become completely useless will less "Flaperon" added than you'd think. I have a DX8 and was able to program 2 levels of Flaperon, and it just upset the plane way too much. I am thinking this will be much better, as I retain full aileron travel, and move my "Braking" inboard away from where the wing has most control (Outer edges). Plus i like experimenting...
Use your rudder on landing. I have my aleroins set to 40%, which is quite a lot. I have the control horns on maximum throws. If you have it mixed right, the alerons still respond well, when you hit them, one side moves up quickly, giving you the same effect as it would without flaps on. I think you just need to find the sweet spot. Adding flaps will add weight and complexity, making the wing loading higher and making it more likely for a switch to crash you. Your also going to block all of the air flow over your aleroins, making them even more useless then they were before.

Good luck, and I hope I'm wrong.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:29 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
Use your rudder on landing.
Yeah, I did use rudder on that giant Extra last year. Sold it to a club member for $10, and was glad to get it. Even though the model would fly virtually straight up out of sight with the Hacker A60-16M motor, it was NOT fun to fly, and even harder to land.

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Old 04-24-2012, 07:33 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
Use your rudder on landing. I have my aleroins set to 40%, which is quite a lot. I have the control horns on maximum throws. If you have it mixed right, the alerons still respond well, when you hit them, one side moves up quickly, giving you the same effect as it would without flaps on. I think you just need to find the sweet spot. Adding flaps will add weight and complexity, making the wing loading higher and making it more likely for a switch to crash you. Your also going to block all of the air flow over your aleroins, making them even more useless then they were before.

Good luck, and I hope I'm wrong.
What plane have you tried this on that you are referencing? Some planes respond to it much better than others. And of all the post I have seen while reading up on the subject, you are the only person that has suggested Flaperons over true flaps. I tried settings over about 30 landings, with different amounts of elevator correction with generally very poor aileron control. It was great in next to no wind where little aileron control was needed however, overall, not for me.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:15 PM   #24
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The rudder is your friend. Just got to get to know the plane well, or get a better feild till you get used to it. I slow my plane down by throwing quite a lot of rudder and elevator on approach. My favorite flying site is a 50 foot road with a direct crosswind. Sometimes its as bad as 45 degree angle with 10-15mph winds.

I put a lot of up into it to keep the nose high, then slowly let off throttle to lose altitude, then flare will full up right as your about to touch, stalling on landing. To be honest this works so well on my plane that I no longer use flaps because they use more battery when doing touch and goes compared to high alpha and flare landing.

My plane is an e-flight alpha 450 "sport". Its not too sporty of a plane, and its a flat bottomed wing, 48" wing span, very similar to an aprentice, just smaller and made of wood. Your flaperoins work by increasing lift, requiring less speed over the wings to produce more lift with less speed. This also numbs your controls badly. I had my plane set with quite a bit of diferential at first, mainly downwords. This made it so that if I bankd either way, it would lose all life on one wing, but not the other.

My plane also has full legnth aleroins, which is the only was I see making them effevtive. With flaps on, I don't think the plane flies slower, but it dos require more motor to keep it up higher, but it will climbe almost straight up and level really well. You should always use rudder to steer the plane to the ground.

But that's just myopinion. I like to land in a full stall.
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:55 AM   #25
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Default So, how did it go?

Was the modification successful in flight?

Originally Posted by NFA Fabrication View Post
Due to this being a bit of an experiment, I have chosen to start by testing this style of flap. Mostly because it is the least invasive on the wing mods, making it easier to try a different style next if I so choose. The flap panel is made out of some fiberglass I laid up, it is very flat, rigid, and light. I used 2 Du-Bro hinges to attach the flap to to the wing. Waiting on servo's to show up, and need to make or get some control horns. Will post results...

Ray
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