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Old 12-04-2013, 11:16 PM   #1
quorneng
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Default A scale Concorde

First, this is NOT a $75.00 Build Contest entry as it will almost certainly take too long.
This will continue the 'scale' ducts concept as I used on the Fairey Delta 2 so another super lightweight build.
For the right 'look' it will also use a true scale wing or as near as I can make it!
First I have prepared this 'plain' (all surface detail removed) 3 view.
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The intent is to use two 40mm EDFs placed right at the back of the inboard engines where the jet pipe is circular. By using the whole engine nacelle the inlet duct will have an area significantly greater than the FSA and be fed by both inlets.
Scaled to a 40mm jet pipe the Concorde will have a span of 36" and be 90" long.
For transport (and storage!) 27" of the nose and 7" of the tail cone will be removable.
That's about as far as my thinking has got.

When the 40mm EDFs arrive and have been tested I will have a better idea of the chances of success!


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Old 12-05-2013, 02:22 AM   #2
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Excellent! I'll be watching!

Out of curiosity, and I'm no expert by any means, I thought too big intakes can be detrimental. Kind of act like air brakes?
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:52 AM   #3
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Hi Quorneng .. you may be interested in these drawings ...

Not the ones I'm using for my $75 job ... but the ones that inspired it ...

Nigel


Attached Files
File Type: pdf Concorde Wing Reflex Camber.pdf (12.7 KB, 54 views)
File Type: pdf CONCORDE_3_views_1_2_A0_size_23_11_05.pdf (40.0 KB, 46 views)
File Type: pdf Concorde 10 inch WS Chuck Glider.pdf (8.0 KB, 42 views)

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Old 12-05-2013, 07:56 AM   #4
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I thought about smaller EDF's for my build - but I'm not able to build as light as you ... even considered multiple 30mm's !! She does have twin engines each side .. so I wondered if 4 x 30mm's or even smaller could be used. But gave it up in the end ... too much power requirement and still poor output.

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Old 12-05-2013, 08:00 AM   #5
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Regarding FSA and exhaust ...

I always understood that exhaust should be progressively narrowed to about 85% of FSA to gain maximum thrust / speed compromise ? That making it same as FSA would actually decrease result.

Intake area as another asks - if too big becomes a 'brick wall' in effect ...

It's part of the reason why I considered allowing air to pass around my EDF shrouds in the square corners of the nacelles ... to avoid the wall effect.

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Old 12-05-2013, 08:34 AM   #6
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The squeeze ratio after the EDF depends a bit on the desired performance envelope and how efficient of a duct you can make.
Desired higher flying speed means more squeeze, up to the max practical eflux speed for the EDF, which is usually near 85% of FSA. But only if the inlet allows you to feed the EDF with enough air. (thus we use a lot of "cheater holes")


The inlets do act as big airbrakes when gliding, but we generally aren't looking for sailplane performance with an EDF model. Too much squeeze of the efflux tube amplifies this by restricting airflow more than the windmilling of the EDF.
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:28 PM   #7
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Thanks for all the interest.
xmech2k
This is a scale plane so it is going to have 2 inlets per side anyway - so I might as well use them!
Solentlife
I did also consider using 30mm and a smaller overall size Concorde but the overall efficiency starts to get alarmingly low. I like to try to achieve a reasonable performance using just 10C (i.e. 6 minutes duration) from the battery.

From all that I can find out the maximum static thrust is achieved with the EDF in its basic state with its inlet bell and no outlet duct. With a light relatively slow flying plane the fan's static thrust is a better guide to performance than it would be on a 100mph jet.

My concern is the aerodynamics that result from adding any sort of exhaust duct to this type of EDF. (Its a 55mm)
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The square 'cut off' of the back of the motor (its 1/2 the duct diameter!) would seriously disrupt the airflow creating energy absorbing turbulence raising the back pressure on the fan and thus reducing the mean air velocity.
My suggestion is it is better to do nothing with the outlet but rather concentrate on how air is fed to the fan.
The fan already has a substantial hub (just over 50% fan diameter) with a smooth profile 'spinner'.
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This fact alone means a 55mm inlet duct is nearly 130% of the fan area.
On the Fairey Delta the inlet duct gradually increased to twice the fan area.

There is concern over the 'brick wall' effect of large inlets. In fact the face of the duct creates no drag as long as the air is being drawn in at or above the planes flying speed. Any drag tends to result from the external shape of the duct behind the inlet.

If I've got this right it will fly but there again maybe not!


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Old 12-05-2013, 03:19 PM   #8
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With a reasonable distance to make the transition its never a bad idea to bring the efflux to at largest: Pi*R^2 fan - Pi*R^2 hub = efflux
Even with that motor having essentially a flat face, the cone squeezing the efflux can be very effective.
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Old 12-05-2013, 05:50 PM   #9
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sub'd, watching and learning....
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:43 PM   #10
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I decided to build the 27" detachable nose section first.
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The fuselage joint will be at the red line.

Made entirely in 2mm Depron it will be built as a 'half shell' over the plan using closely spaced 'ring' formers.

As it will be just a hollow Depron structure and carry no components nothing is wasted (apart from my time!) if it proves too difficult to make or too flexible!

Next job is to work out exactly how to make all those fuselage formers.


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Old 12-07-2013, 07:52 PM   #11
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Fascinating build. Please keep us posted especially on what worked and what didn't.

Half ounce fiberglass weave with thin epoxy well squeezed outr will add rigidity and strength with minimal weight, although weight in the nose might be advantageous.

Has anyone tried or built a hot wire setup like a scroll saw would be? Maybe 6"- 8" of wire perpendicular to a flat table should work and provide a surface for options and accuracy. Just asking.

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Old 12-07-2013, 08:07 PM   #12
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Ref the Droop Snoop .... Dahawk is giving me a poke to do it ...

Looking at the real thing - it's actually not so clean streamlined when drooped .. only when up does it fair in nicely.

So I'm wondering whether an axle with a vertical pulley wheel in centre and line round to a 180 deg servo arm ? Servo actuated by an aux channel but EPA'd back to just do the required angle ?

The nose fixed to the axle ?

To Abuelo about the small hot-wire cutter ... yes I had one years ago based on a hand catapult frame, Americans call it a Slingshot ? similar to this (this ones plastic so not possible with the hot wire)



... with variable hobby train controller to control temp.

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Old 12-07-2013, 08:13 PM   #13
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subscribed

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Old 12-07-2013, 09:38 PM   #14
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I'm odd... I would consider using Pringles cans (or, lighter but expensive, model rocket tube) for the fuselage.

for the droop nose operation I think pull-pull control cables with the nose on a simple axle. I doubt you need a 180 deg servo.
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:23 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Abuelo View Post
........Has anyone tried or built a hot wire setup like a scroll saw would be? Maybe 6"- 8" of wire perpendicular to a flat table..........
Matter of fact, I did just that...see pics below. I built this to act like a scroll saw with an adjustable fence. I also added a DPDT switch and jacks so that I could use it with a bow. Works great....


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Old 12-08-2013, 12:39 AM   #16
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The bit that concerns me is the vertical rigidity of the fuselage.
Side to side should be ok as the wing will add considerable stiffness over half the fuselage length but it will provide little extra stiffness up and down. It is possible the fuselage may need some top & bottom reinforcement.
Hopefully the 27" long nose section will give me some idea of how much it might flex before I proceed with the whole 7' 6" of it!

The first 3 'half' formers.
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These are the easy ones as they are all the same! The next 11 are all different and only the first 4 are truly circular.
I have not yet decided how much of the inside of each former to cut away.

My intention is that the CofG will be achieved with battery at the front of the main part of the fuselage so the nose section will be 'aerodynamic' only and carry no weight.


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Old 12-08-2013, 12:56 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by DEG View Post
Matter of fact, I did just that...see pics below. I built this to act like a scroll saw with an adjustable fence. I also added a DPDT switch and jacks so that I could use it with a bow. Works great....
Looks great and I'm inspired. Like the option of output to either the table or a bow.

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Old 12-08-2013, 04:51 AM   #18
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Abuelo,

Hope you like it. Mine works really well.

Don
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:22 AM   #19
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Simon ... I have same concern ... and is why I will build my nose similar to Schumate's way of laminated layers of foam.

I'm thinking to have the laminations run back to encapsulate the LE of the wing ...

Only problem is keeping dahawk happy with doing the Droop Snoop !! Wondering whether to insert a vertical balsa profile running nose back to pivot .. with similar in the fixed part ...

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Old 12-08-2013, 01:25 PM   #20
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Nigel,

Aw, no worries on the droop snoop if it's too complex to achieve in a model. Was probably an extremely complex challenge in the full scale. It's just that the two things that really make the Concorde the stand-out, iconic beauty she was, were the droop snoop and the highly sculptured wing.

The other cool thing would be to use yellow LED's wired to the throttle for the exhaust with some fiberglass strands to replicate the re-heaters. http://flitetest.com/articles/f-18-led-afterburners But I know that would be asking for way too much in the allotted time ! LOL

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Old 12-08-2013, 02:46 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Nigel,

Aw, no worries on the droop snoop if it's too complex to achieve in a model. Was probably an extremely complex challenge in the full scale. It's just that the two things that really make the Concorde the stand-out, iconic beauty she was, were the droop snoop and the highly sculptured wing.

The other cool thing would be to use yellow LED's wired to the throttle for the exhaust with some fiberglass strands to replicate the re-heaters. http://flitetest.com/articles/f-18-led-afterburners But I know that would be asking for way too much in the allotted time ! LOL
If I can do the Snoop ... I will ... just that I don't usually get a lot of time at home !!

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Old 12-08-2013, 06:30 PM   #22
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I have cut out all 14 nose section formers.
I decided to use them as 'rings' as it saved 45% in weight without compromising too much strength.
The very beginnings of the half shell.
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Don't hold your breath this is going to take quite some time!


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Old 12-09-2013, 08:15 PM   #23
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Skinning the first half of the nose - slowly!
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I can now see why Concorde was nick named the 'Supersonic pencil"!

Progress is slow because each plank is being glued on with PVA rather than UHU POR. PVA takes far longer to dry but it dries hard so can be sanded easily. 'Rubbery' POR on the other hand is notoriously difficult to sand successfully on foam surfaces.
The aluminium tube is used to cold form a radius on each plank so the finished surface is a smooth radius rather than a series of 'flats'. With only a 2mm skin you can't afford to sand very much away!

So far the construction method appears to work but weight will be the final test. If the half shell weighs much over 1oz then the all up target of 18oz will be in serious jeopardy.


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Old 12-09-2013, 09:16 PM   #24
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I found PVA to have a tendency to not remain attached ... and changed to PU wood glue ... with a weight reduction as when it foams - I could cut away the excess ...

Initially I was applying to the face to join ... but of course then expansion had to be cared for .. but later changed to a tiny smear on face - but a fillet at L of joint ... what a change ! It filled all voids ... I could cut away excess ... joint was strong as surrounding foam ...

Just a comment !!

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Old 12-10-2013, 11:40 PM   #25
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Nose half shell complete, lifted from the plan and the other side formers added.
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The initial planking on this side will have to done with care to avoid building in a 'twist' as although the half shell is quite strong it has little torsional stiffness.
The half shell weighed 0.65oz (18.5gm)

So far so good.


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