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Old 11-17-2014, 08:33 PM   #1
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Default Help - firewall keeps ripping out !

I am fast losing patience with this POS I bought in Warsaw !!

Its a Zlin 50LS 3D profile machine in EPP.



Span : 900mm
Fus length : 840
Flying weight with 1500 3S : 460gr

Manual says EM30 motor ... equivalent is 2830 ~ 1000 - 1200KV, so I'm told.
Manual specs : APC prop 9x4.7 - 10x4.7

Here's the 'firewall' for want of a better name :



A plastic moulding that in the book says CA + kicker to front recess ... (I used Epoxy.....)

I fitted my 2830/8 1300KV RC Timer motor + 9x4.8 APC ..... 1300 LiPo which was barely above storage.

At about 70% throttle - I'm trying to find if she will hover or go vertical ... the firewall just ripped straight out.

So I took 2 longgggg screws and after regluing the firewall in place ... drilled pilot holes, filled with epoxy and wound in the long screws to spread the load further into the structure.

Tried again ... firewall came away again.

Now this machine is in manual up to 450gr quote ... so in my book needs 600gr or more thrust to do anything like what she's supposed to do. But no way will the firewall take it ...

HELP !! What to do ?

I have thoughts of maybe inserting two squares of lite-ply behind the firewall on fus sides extending back. Then drive two screws in either side with strong thread led from screw round firewall and back to screw on other side ... round second screw and then back to first side second screw to create a square thread affair to try and carry some load .. The problem is to keep it light as I am already at max weight ...

All my Depron models have survived motors bigger than this without such hassle ...

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Old 11-17-2014, 09:00 PM   #2
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You can do 1 of 2 things,

1. drill the foam where the screws go into fuse with a 1/2" drill, CA 2 pieces of 1/2" wood dowels about 1 1/2" long into the fuselage, then screw the motor mount onto that, pre drill the wood dowels holes in the middle.

2. ply wood on the sides and on the back of the fuse for the motor mount to attach too. EPP Foam does does not bond very well with glues, EPP does not bond well with Epoxy.

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Old 11-17-2014, 09:03 PM   #3
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I would cut slot in the foam and inlay a piece of plywood (parallel to the motor mount) as far back from the firewall as my longest screws would reach. Then glue in the plywood and run my screws into it. The plywood need only be a bit taller than the motor mount; just enough for the screws to hold without splitting the plywood.

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Old 11-17-2014, 09:12 PM   #4
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I'd put a couple of 'slits' in the foam maybe 1/8" or so in from the outer surface and push and glue in a couple of 1/16" ply 'tongues' similar idea to the doublers you would find on the sides of old school balsa models. Dig out a little foam between the tongues and glue in a 1/8" ply plus 1/4" balsa laminate between (ply on the front, balsa grain running side to side). Screws would then attach the plastic motor mount.

Shouldnt weigh more than a few grams and would be invisible once done.
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:50 PM   #5
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Just trying to picture your idea JPF ... as I understand it - your idea is the create a ply box in the foam ?

I did think about discarding the plastic mount and create an egg-box affair with Lite-Ply ... basically couple of tapered doublers - one each side with a 4mm ply firewall with tabs locking into the side doublers. Think that's what Chellie's #2 is ..

There is another problem - I cannot get double side tape or other to stick well to the EPP - so ESC and Rx keep coming away. If I add doublers - then at least I'll get area to sort the ESC ...
I wanted to run a strip of packing tape spanwise under the wing. Wouldn't stick good enough.

My worry is that the EPP foam will just pull away if I insert a second vertical wall ... if I don't spread the load area ...

The last 'break-away' caused something to happen to the motor .. can't see anything wrong - but its not running right now ... so I've ordered a couple of different motors ... one a can motor - other a bell ... spec'd to match manual's kv more closely etc.

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Old 11-17-2014, 11:08 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Just trying to picture your idea JPF ... as I understand it - your idea is the create a ply box in the foam ?
yeah, kind of, but a 'box' with only three sides. The ply tongues forming the sides and running back some way into the foam, and the Ply/balsa firewall glued in between forming the front of the 'box'.

This gives maximum glue contact area between plywood and foam and gives you a nice solid ply firewall to screw into.

Gorilla glue might be the stuff to get a good grab into the foam, it seems to stick to anything. I'd use epoxy (sparingly) between the ply firewall and the ply tongues.


PS... you could probably just use one 'tongue' slotted down the centre of the foam with bits of ply/balse glued either side to form the firewall. Maybe not as stable as the two tongue idea but probably more than good enough, and a shade lighter.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:32 AM   #7
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a couple of pictures speak volumes....the orange airfoils edge uses a piece of ply with triangle stock on both sides.glued with epoxy.

the white bird is way thicker than your fuse but slotting the ply into the fuse makes it very strong. both designs have held up very well and the triangle method might be best. also the 3 sided box idea is probably the strongest method with out cutting the epp.


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narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:34 AM   #8
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Part of the issue is the foam used and the plastic of the firewall both have issues with glue... It doesn't really bond. You can peel it right off.

The foam flexes and that releases the glue from the foam or pops it off of the firewall 9which also flexes a bit...)

So you need a more flexible glue or you need to insert structure to prevent the flexing. since you won't find a glue that will hold th motor on and is flexible enough, its going to be adding some structure.

Slotting in plywood or inserting dowels/cf (or even toothpicks) will add to bonding area and stiffen the foam in the area of the joint.

Gorilla foaming glue will spread the load and it tends to penetrate into the foam while adding a stiffening fillet, thus improving the situation... but sometimes that isn't enough.

WHY the issue comes up is important in seeing how to solve it.

Its solvable.

My first step would be replacing the plastic firewall with plywood. A wood firweall will eliminate the issue of glue popping off the plastic one.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:41 AM   #9
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nigel, if you don't get good 3d performance , i suggest sticking lights all over it and fly at night. the epp foam will make hard landing more forgivable..lol

narrow is the place to land...wide is the space to crash....choose the narrow way!
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Old 11-18-2014, 07:44 AM   #10
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The More I work With EPP foam, the More i Hate it I was Going to build my EDF Flying Wing out of EPP foam, but its a Pain to hot wire, because it comes out Stringy when hot wired and glues dont stick to it very well, I went out to Lows Hardware Store and bought some EPS Insulating foam, Its Extruded Poly rather than Expanded poly Foam, and the Extruded Foam is a Closed Cell Foam, Its very strong, and I believe it will hot wire cut better too, and Just about any glue, except for CA will bond to it, Its a EPS Foam, and its Cheaper than EPP foam too, a 4' X 4' section of EPP is like about 20.00 and a 8' X 4' section of EPS is 20.00, I am Still going through a lot of Trial and Errors trying to Hot wire cut a Foam Wing, and I think i got it now, I am making 2 Aluminium wing patterns, one inboard and one outboard, and will use a tethered hot wire to cut the entire wing at once, I finally figured out the right power source for the hot wire, bought some more 20 Gauge Nichrome wire, and some 2" x 1/16" aluminium stock for the Wing patterns, Dang, this EDF Flying Wing is being a Project for sure But I am Winning Take care, Chellie

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Old 11-18-2014, 09:22 AM   #11
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In fact the epoxy glue did not peel of the plastic or foam .... when the motor came out - it took foam with it !

I'm with you Chellie .... this will the last 'kit' EPP model I do. If I go EPP again - it will be pnf, so I have better chance of success. For all my foam diy - I have used depron or insulation foam ... small closed bead format. But of course its heavier.

I may end up replacing fuselage with an eps of my own ..... the wing is fine, apart from a bent aileron - which a touch of heat will sort.

Stupid thing is I had offer of a FW190D model which is what I was looking for. But it was half the size I wanted. I wanted one to take my 15cc gas engine. Then I noticed this at half the cost of others .... it is supposed to come from an experienced producer.

So much for the quick throw-it-together profile job. I've spent nearly as long on this now as on a full fus model.

I knew there was a reason I do not do 3D.

Nigel

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Old 11-18-2014, 09:39 AM   #12
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Chellie - I wasn't going to rain on your optimism about hot wire work. But it is NOT as easy as forums make out. Too hot and you get irregular surface .... too cold and wire drags .... tapered wings end up out of shape because its difficult to keep % cut at each end same.

There have been various home contraptions where threaded stock rod with gears could be set up to move wire ends at different rates.

I had a small home business cutting foam parts - it took a lot of wasted foam and practice to get good results. Now - as I haven't cut foam with wire regularly - still have trouble with it.

One trick I found : Do not try and cut spar slots or cut-outs with wing shape in one go. Better to cut plain wing shape and later add the slots / cut-outs. This reduces the amount of direction change with wire.

Of course there are some people who just drop straight in and get it right ! I'm not one of those !

Good luck

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Old 11-18-2014, 02:55 PM   #13
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Default OK - Solved it ...

By taking ALL ideas ... combining with my humble thoughts ... came up with solution.

First to trace out nose onto paper for template :



Then remove old mount .... you would not believe how hard that was .. took a lot of effort to get that off ... so just shows the sort of power motors have.
Cut a 4mm ply firewall that extends PAST the top and bottom foam, with tab slots for fuselage side doublers in 2mm Lite-ply.
I decided to set the firewall back a bit from the original by about 5mm to offset the extra grams, plus give me more foam to work into. This meant slicing of the front to get a nice flat surface to work on.




Template then was used to produce tapered side doublers with tabs / slots to lock the firewall in place.





The firewall was then epoxied into place with holes and divots made to allow epoxy to lock into the foam.



The side doublers were added and clamped while epoxy set-up.





The foam cut-aways were trimmed and put back - clamped between the lit-ply sides.



Ready for motor.











........

What then happened ?

Did a power on test and WOW ... she took all that was offered ... only trouble being that it appears the motor was damaged when it did its fly-away ! Will strip and see if its simple ... but I think I will be waiting for the new motor ! The motor is throttling but then after a second or so at WOT - terrible grating noises and then she stops. Open throttle again and she makes horrible noises and ESC gets hot. Think magnets or bearings shot ..

Increase in weight ? 6gr .... less than I expected.


THANKS FOR ALL YOUR IDEAS ... what makes WF the best.

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Old 11-18-2014, 04:06 PM   #14
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sounds more like debris got in and chipped a magnet... and the motor is randomly shorting out as the bits cut into the winding insulation.
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Old 11-18-2014, 05:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
sounds more like debris got in and chipped a magnet... and the motor is randomly shorting out as the bits cut into the winding insulation.
Took motor apart number of times ... clean ... nothing there. Even took plastic piece and cleaned between magnets etc.
She turns by hand sweet ...

But power up and she cogs ... grates ... speeds up ... stops ...

At $10 a throw ... get another one !!

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Old 11-18-2014, 05:21 PM   #16
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Showed the Wife the repair .... she's STILL not impressed with the model ....

As she said when first saw it - Hope it flies better than it looks !!

Maybe she knows more than I ??

Nigel

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Old 11-18-2014, 06:38 PM   #17
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[QUOTE=JetPlaneFlyer;962049]

Gorilla glue might be the stuff to get a good grab into the foam, it seems to stick to anything. I'd use epoxy (sparingly) between the ply firewall and the ply tongues.

/QUOTE]

Just wondering, does hot melt glue stick to this stuff?

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Old 11-18-2014, 06:43 PM   #18
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[QUOTE=kyleservicetech;962097]
Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post

Gorilla glue might be the stuff to get a good grab into the foam, it seems to stick to anything. I'd use epoxy (sparingly) between the ply firewall and the ply tongues.

/QUOTE]

Just wondering, does hot melt glue stick to this stuff?
Very poorly ! But is good for filling in !

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Old 11-18-2014, 07:36 PM   #19
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Nigel.....your solution to the problem just reinforced one of many reasons I subscribe to this forum.

The number of RC vet's here, like you, never let any problem or situation hold you down.....!

The vast experience and thought process/applications provided here continue to impress and amaze me.........and 9 times out of 10, are very practical and well thought out.......

Not only that, but I have lost track of the number of times I have applied a principal or method to a build, fix or mod that I've learned here, that never fails (always works) and always saves me time and occasionally money......!

Thanks for all of your insight......and that "thanks" applies to each and everyone of the RC vet's here at WattFlyer.......!

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Old 11-18-2014, 08:39 PM   #20
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And a final security... drill and run a dowel (maybe just a toothpick) through the fuse near the aft end of that setup. Lock it all together.
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Old 11-18-2014, 09:08 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
And a final security... drill and run a dowel (maybe just a toothpick) through the fuse near the aft end of that setup. Lock it all together.
The ESC needs to be 'clamped' in position, so was considering a 'tie-wrap' through. This can also lock that lot.

I am rather pleased though with the outcome - shame about the motor. But it was up front of my Mini4 when it vertical'd into the tarmac .... so it was probably on its way anyway.

Nigel

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Old 11-19-2014, 04:51 AM   #22
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Nice Modification Nigel, well Done, and you are so right about hot wiring foam, Its very very difficult, But I am Learning, I destroyed a 4' x 4' X 2" sheet of EPP trying different ways to hot wire it, I get better at it each time I am putting everything I have learned so far, into a good way to hot wire Foam, What i have learned so far is that, straight cuts, need to be done with a Table saw on foam, as a hot wire will not cut the foam perfectly straight and flush, and being able to control the heat of the wire, just a little bit of voltage before the wire turns red, and cut the wing in one pass, trying to cut half the wing and turning it over does not work very well, IMHO, and using inboard and out Board patterns, is a must, and a Tethered hot wire seems to wok the best, because you can control the cutting speed better, Its Automatic almost with a Tethered hot wire, by the time I am Done hot wiring this wing, I will be an Expert on hot wiring foam wings LOL, at least thats what I keep telling myself Take care and have fun, Chellie

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Old 11-21-2014, 11:14 PM   #23
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That is a nice mode job. I would have tried Welders glue first thing. Works great on EPP and never gets brittle. Looks like the silicone type glue.
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:36 AM   #24
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I did this on my old Zoombi for the same reason. The front of the plane just doesn't have enough area to hold a decent firewall I added these cheek cowls of EPP foam hotglued on then made a 1/8 ply firewall the full width of all three pieces. Never moved since. I don't know if you've ever tried to remove hotglue from plywood but you don't.!!
The cheeks are about 1/2 an in. deep on either side, plus the width of the fuse.so it gives you a lot more surface area, plus it strengthens up the whole nose without adding a lot of weight.
Just another idea

Gord.

Gord.
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:13 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by flypaper 2 View Post
I did this on my old Zoombi for the same reason. The front of the plane just doesn't have enough area to hold a decent firewall I added these cheek cowls of EPP foam hotglued on then made a 1/8 ply firewall the full width of all three pieces. Never moved since. I don't know if you've ever tried to remove hotglue from plywood but you don't.!!
The cheeks are about 1/2 an in. deep on either side, plus the width of the fuse.so it gives you a lot more surface area, plus it strengthens up the whole nose without adding a lot of weight.
Just another idea

Gord.
I also thought of adding more foam as cheeks ... to increase glueing area. But having very light 2mm Lite-Ply - it was stronger, for basically same weight.

Next any 3D job I have - If I do !! will most certainly have more frontal area ...

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