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Hi-Performance and Sailplanes RC hotliners, electric pylon racers, F5B, F5D, sailplanes and gliders

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Old 06-22-2010, 06:21 PM   #1
Nuclear
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Default What are the difference(s) btwn these 2meter SailPlanes/WarmLiners?????

I was looking through the NESail.com and Espirit.com
sites and I narrowed my choices to these SailPlanes
(entry Level WarmLiners)

"MeFisto"

"Variant 3"

GreatPlanes "Siren"

does anyone own and fly these 3 planes?
I'm moving up from a slow 180 watt Radian and
I like the "two in one plane" combo
(float and hotdog around)

thanks
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Old 06-22-2010, 07:12 PM   #2
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SLOW Radian?
Have you ballast up the bird yet? SLOW?? If you can't hotdog around on the Radian and enjoy it, you might need something hotter than the three you listed! I would put the Radian up against the first two on the list. The Great plane is a nice bird, but a near than perfect setup is required and its a handful. The cost is up there too in the long run. If your slopeing, any three would be great. I might suggest you keep the Radian as a nice backup bird for those days you find the so called "HOT" birds don't want to cooperate! HAVE FUN!!
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:13 AM   #3
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TM4197....
I ask because I think my Radian is very slow from Point A to Point B.
5-10 sec WOT covers very little ground on the Radian....
I do like floating around though, but wish there was more speed
when WOT.....

I'm debating on which WarmLiner to get, simple set up, and on the cheapy.

I've also looked at the Blizzard and St.Blaze.....

sooooo many choices.....?
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:36 AM   #4
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I understand completely. Everyone has different interest even if its a sailplane. What I like about 2m-3m thermal sailplanes is the fact that you are going slow, and you try everything you possibly can to catch that one boomer thermal or ride a very small one for all its worth. But, you can push the nose down (assisted with motor) if you have one, and start looking for the new one. I can move my DG300 accross space pretty darn fast and not loose much altitude before Iam riding another wave up! Now, when i want to hotdog, I land the sailplane, fire up the ME-109 and go for it. So, I kinda look at a warmer/hottie as a aeroplane, not a sailplane. Now that I've said that, I will say many friends of mine who have the Hot ones are experts at searching thermals, and can move about so graceful its almost an artform, but I never seem to see these guys screaming around the sky like a P-40. They move with a purpose...to get that rising air! No matter what you choose, enjoy what you get!! I'am just old and have decided to slow down and smell the roses!
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:05 PM   #5
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I know what you mean Nuclear. The Radian is my first flying RC aircraft and after a several months wanted something that would fly a little faster and fly better in the wind.
I looked at getting a hotliner after reading about them but was convinced that they are more complicated by the local hooby shop owner.
He showed me one that he and his son built ,well he showed me the remains.
They fly fast and it is very difficult to read when they fly through lift.
He told me that the rules of FAI F5b may have a section of competition that calls for thermaling for ten minutes but most can reach a high fast enough to fly for ten minutes without lift.
I ended up buying a Great plains Spirit Elite kit which I am still building and have also purchased a 3.2m Stepp-upp. Both planes are launched by winch or high-start.
If you choose a balsa wood or composite plane it should fly faster than the Radian.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:27 AM   #6
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anyone know about the "Mefisto" and "Variant 3"?
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:26 PM   #7
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I hope someone can give Nuclear a direct answer to his questions, as I would like to find a warmliner myself.

My RADIAN is TONS of fun as a floater and camera platform but I would like a dual purpose electric sailplane; one that is decent in thermals but could also slope and maybe surprise me at it's speed.

Am I wishing for the impossible?
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Old 06-29-2010, 04:15 PM   #8
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I don't know about the "Mefisto" and "Variant 3" but will be watching this thread to see if there is info on them.

I do have some info on the Siren. It is very fast in relation to the Radian and will cover lots of sky and ground in short order. I have had my just completed Siren up for 6 flights so far it does thermal well not as good as the Radian but more like the Ascent 450 BL that I have. If there are good thermals it seems to climb OK. I have not gotten a weight on the Siren yet but it must be twice the weight of the Radian so it retains energy well. It is very responsive compared to the Radian partly because of the speed and partly because of the ailerons. I does stall at much higher speed than a Radian but it is a warmliner.

The price of the airframe alone is in the 150.00 range, this is cheap for the type of plane that it is. You get a lot for your money with the Siren. I am using a Turnigy 35-48 1100 KV motor, a 80 amp ESC and a single 2700 mah 3S lipo, so the investment is not that great. I consider this a good stepping stone up to a full fledged hotliner.

If you are comfortable with your Radian and have some time with a sport plane that has ailerons you should be OK with the Siren. It is docile enough that an intermediate pilot should be OK. It does need a lot of room to land if you don't program in spoilerons. It really needs them or you will need a very long flat final approach. Once you point the nose down it gains speed quick and the large wings makes it hang in ground effect forever.

Hope that some of this helps a little

Regards
Joe C.
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Old 06-29-2010, 04:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Old Tin Man View Post
I don't know about the "Mefisto" and "Variant 3" but will be watching this thread to see if there is info on them.

I do have some info on the Siren. It is very fast in relation to the Radian and will cover lots of sky and ground in short order. I have had my just completed Siren up for 6 flights so far it does thermal well not as good as the Radian but more like the Ascent 450 BL that I have. If there are good thermals it seems to climb OK. I have not gotten a weight on the Siren yet but it must be twice the weight of the Radian so it retains energy well. It is very responsive compared to the Radian partly because of the speed and partly because of the ailerons. I does stall at much higher speed than a Radian but it is a warmliner.

The price of the airframe alone is in the 150.00 range, this is cheap for the type of plane that it is. You get a lot for your money with the Siren. I am using a Turnigy 35-48 1100 KV motor, a 80 amp ESC and a single 2700 mah 3S lipo, so the investment is not that great. I consider this a good stepping stone up to a full fledged hotliner.

If you are comfortable with your Radian and have some time with a sport plane that has ailerons you should be OK with the Siren. It is docile enough that an intermediate pilot should be OK. It does need a lot of room to land if you don't program in spoilerons. It really needs them or you will need a very long flat final approach. Once you point the nose down it gains speed quick and the large wings makes it hang in ground effect forever.

Hope that some of this helps a little

Regards
Joe C.
Helps a little? Joe that helps a LOT!

I've been eyeballing the Siren because as you say, it looks like a lot of fun for a modest amount of money. Fortunately, I have a huge flying field (1200 foot runway) to land in so this may be my first "warmliner".

A "thank you" has been sent and thank you very much. This is exactly the kind of feedback from experienced pilots I am looking for.

At the advice of Ed Anderson (Moderator) I am going to start another thread to explore this, and another topic in detail.

'The Bum
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:02 PM   #10
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great post Joe C.
I would of gotten the Great Planes Siren, but
the Wings do not break down into 2-pieces.
the wings at 2meters are just too big to fit into my car.....
I was looking at the Mephisto and Variant 3
(both are 2meters)
they are very similiar to the Siren but maybe just a bit
stronger in the wings dept., plus the wings break down
into 2-pieces for transportation.....
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Old 07-03-2014, 06:17 AM   #11
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also deciding if going to get the Great Planes Spirit
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:52 AM   #12
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Whoever would put the Radian up against the two Reichard models CLEARLY hasn't been around gliders. No matter how much ballast you add! Airfoil designs are such that even if you could get the Radian up to any spped that ressembled fast, the lift produced by its own airfiol would have the plane doing loops, no matter how much down evevator you could input. Down elevator input causes lots of drag, and negates the idea of flying faster. Both the Reichard models are very capable of some moderately powerful setups. Speeds are far higher than the Radian could ever hope to achieve (even if you reinforced the Radians wings). Fiberglass fuesalages, foam cored, carbon, and fiberglass wings are very sturdy. Although not hotliners, at the very least- warmliners. Energy retention of the Reichard models is vastly superior to that of the Radian. Siren? Ive had that to. See a video on youtube named "Siren vs Scorpion". That should help you make your mind up, and dispel any notion that the Radian could possibly ever be considered even a close contestant. The Scorpion is also a Reichard model, and similar to the two you mention. Siren is a decent plane, but is very heavy, only thermals on a perfect day, and battery swaps are a real pain in the butt, and the wing is one piece, and very long. Of all the planes listed, please look at the Reichard Sprinter. My friend has that one and it does really well as a warmliner. Still thermals well and very tame- no ad vices. I'm not bashing the Radian, it's a good floater, it's cheap, but that about it
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:31 PM   #13
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seng30904
Surely ballast increases the plane's speed without altering its aerodynamic characteristics.
In technical terms it moves the gliders polar curve along the speed axis but does not change its shape. It thus flies faster without requiring any additional trim change.

I am not suggesting a Radian will ever fly as fast as a hot liner but by adding ballast within its structural limits any glider will fly faster whilst maintaining the same glide angle.
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:23 PM   #14
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That's wrong. Simply put, forward fight basically encounters two forces, lift and drag. Since the wing has the most area, forces upon it are the greatest. The airfoil of the radian is designed to provide lift, and lots of it. Thus, the faster it fly's, the greater the amount of lift produced. When lift increases, the plane balloons upward, requiring you to compensate for level flight by adding in down elevator. If enough speed/lift is encountered, you will very soon run out of enough down elevator to maintain level flight, and the aircraft increases its unwanted angle of attack. And since deflecting any control surface induces drag, all that down elevator is acting to slow the aircraft. That's why so many airfoils abound, especially in sailplane/glider type aircraft. By no means am I an expert of wing designs, but I've had or currently have all types of sailplane/glider type aircraft, including unpowered TD's, hotliners, F5B, and your run of the mill Hobby Shop(Radian, and the like)) purchases. I've had the Reichard models mentioned, and have set-up and flown my friends Siren. Ballasting works to overcome lift, and allows better penetration, but at the expense of lift. Generally reserved for slope planes where uprising air currents provide the energy for lift that was wasted by ballasting. Again, these type planes have altogether different airfoil designs that produce much less lift than a Radians airfoil.
Taking in what was ask in the original question, and his desires, he clearly did a little research and happened upon two great models made by Reichard. I was only acting to reinforce his choices. No hard feeling either way
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:14 PM   #15
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Hardly 'wrong' as if you are carrying ballast you actually need more lift to support it.

Provided the ballast is positioned on the centre of gravity the actual trim characteristics of the plane do not change it just travels faster down exactly the same glide path.

I think you are confusing ballasted flight with the effects of diving for speed which I agree the Radian is not particularly good at.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:18 PM   #16
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We are talking constants. Add a particular amount of weight to any given airframe with a flat or semi symmetrical airfoil foil. Apply just enough power (and trim if needed) to propel that same aircraft at a constant speed, to maintain level flight. OK, now we have just enough lift to maintain level. Now we are going to keep everything the same such as the weight (ballast) and airframe. The only thing we are going to change to the speed. Since speed directly correlates with lift produced, our aircraft is going to produce more lift as we increase speed. So now to maintain level flight, we need to input down elevator (or slow down). Since the Radians airfoil is some variant of the Clark foil, it is simply not designed for anything other than what is - which is a slow, high lift producing foil, which is great for that type of sailplane. To say that you can ballast your radian to provide similar results of differing high speed type foils is what I meant as "wrong".
All this said hopefully to led Nuclear in the right direction when choosing another sailplane.
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:00 AM   #17
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I think you are confusing ballasted flight with the effects of diving for speed which I agree the Radian is not particularly good at.
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