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Hi-Performance and Sailplanes RC hotliners, electric pylon racers, F5B, F5D, sailplanes and gliders

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Old 07-14-2014, 05:22 PM   #1
drummaker
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Default Picking a glider

so My Bird of time bit the dust. A winch start guy was going to show me how to fly. He launched the BOT with a hard toss and a lot of up angle. Since the Bot had an upthrust issue, It tried to loop stalled and crashed. Totally not his fault. I guess I thought he would automatically throw it straight out.

anyway. I am replacing it.
I want to buy something designed for a motor and with ailerons

I am down to 3 choices in my price range.
https://www.espritmodel.com/elipsoid-evo-28e-arf.aspx
https://www.espritmodel.com/champion-28e-arf.aspx
and
http://www.skipmillermodels.com/Lega...m_p/legacy.htm
t

the Skip Miller is I think a renamed gliderman

I believe that the gliderman is basically a bird of time with a motor mount pre built in and both servos in the rear instead of just the one. The only reason I am even considering it is because of the larger wing area and lower wing loading.

I have to say though I loved my bot. I found it to be pretty lethargic and not much fun to fly. It was beautiful.. and of course there was the terrifying part about launching it with the motor wanting to make it loop.. (My fault and it wouldn't be that way this time.)

Anyway. I am most attracted to the. elipsoid evo I like the idea the the horiz stab is removable and that it can easily be shimmed to change Decalage.

My problem

am I going to hate the change in Wing loading after having been used to the BOT.. I will say that their specs for wing loading were as a pure glider and the plane did gain some weight during electrification. so Hell it might have already been around 12 oz/IN

I also need to buy today or tomorrow because I am taking a trip to go fly with my brother and only have a couple of weeks to pull this together.

opinions please ASAP
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:47 AM   #2
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Sorry to hear about your loss. I had a fellow member take my Carbon Z CUB up this weekend without asking, or doing a preflight check, and stuffed it into the ground. Not a great day.

Anyway, I don't know about all the specs on each, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I think the Skip Miller one looks the best. I like the ones that look a bit different, and that fits the bill. If I'm not mistaken, it's similar to the BOP as well.

Good luck either way. A "real" glider is on my wish list after a DLG, I have a Radian now but want to step up to something nicer.
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:33 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by drummaker View Post
so My Bird of time bit the dust. A winch start guy was going to show me how to fly. He launched the BOT with a hard toss and a lot of up angle. Since the Bot had an upthrust issue, It tried to loop stalled and crashed. Totally not his fault. I guess I thought he would automatically throw it straight out.

anyway. I am replacing it.
I want to buy something designed for a motor and with ailerons

I am down to 3 choices in my price range.
https://www.espritmodel.com/elipsoid-evo-28e-arf.aspx
https://www.espritmodel.com/champion-28e-arf.aspx
and
http://www.skipmillermodels.com/Lega...m_p/legacy.htm
t

the Skip Miller is I think a renamed gliderman

I believe that the gliderman is basically a bird of time with a motor mount pre built in and both servos in the rear instead of just the one. The only reason I am even considering it is because of the larger wing area and lower wing loading.

I have to say though I loved my bot. I found it to be pretty lethargic and not much fun to fly. It was beautiful.. and of course there was the terrifying part about launching it with the motor wanting to make it loop.. (My fault and it wouldn't be that way this time.)

Anyway. I am most attracted to the. elipsoid evo I like the idea the the horiz stab is removable and that it can easily be shimmed to change Decalage.

My problem

am I going to hate the change in Wing loading after having been used to the BOT.. I will say that their specs for wing loading were as a pure glider and the plane did gain some weight during electrification. so Hell it might have already been around 12 oz/IN

I also need to buy today or tomorrow because I am taking a trip to go fly with my brother and only have a couple of weeks to pull this together.

opinions please ASAP
Those three models really look nice.

I flew a lot of different gliders or sailplanes back in the mid 1980's, up to a pair of Craftaire Viking polyhedral 10 foot wingspan models. After getting tired of pulling my winch parachute out of the trees, five of those sailplanes were electrified. Never went back to winches.

Those electric power systems got the 10 foot models far higher than a winch could ever do. Add to that, the same power system could haul those models up several times.

That was back in the days of Astroflight Geared 40 Cobalt Brush type motors, and an 18 Cell Nicad battery pack. That power system could haul the 112 ounce sailplane up at 45 degrees, and just keep on going. Now days, you can double the watts capability, with 1/2 the total over all weight.

As for modifying those models, I just cut off the nose of the sailplane, and spliced in a front end for electric power. It took a bit of work, but those two Viking models had a number of two hour plus flights on them. And, that was in South East Wisconsin. It was interesting. First, one of those Viking sailplanes was electrified. That model completely out flew the other standard winch launched model, so the second Viking was electrified shortly after. As for weight, it was reasonable, since a lot of lead shot had to be removed from the nose of the sailplane. The addition of the motor and battery pack was only a half pound or so of added weight.

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Old 07-15-2014, 04:11 PM   #4
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Hi Everyone Thanks for your comments.

I have decided on this.
https://www.espritmodel.com/elipsoid-evo-28e-arf.aspx
I have had a bad year flying and have already destroyed 2 airplanes.

The BOT was a disaster waiting to happen the way the thing tried to loop when you launched it. Still I made a stupid mistake and it is pretty much destroyed. I Believe I could put it together, but it would no longer be the quality I wanted so

Wish me luck on the elipsoid. If I crash this one... I am making myself permanently limited to foam
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:24 PM   #5
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no shame in foam

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Old 07-15-2014, 04:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Porcia83 View Post
no shame in foam
not at all. It is just that the wood ones just fly so much sweeter
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:50 AM   #7
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That is a nice looking Glider and the price seems very reasonable.
No shame in foam, but the wood definitely flies better. I have been flying a Phoenix 2000 for some time on and off. The only thing I liked was the plastic fuselage. Very tough stuff.
So I made a balsa wing for it and did away with the ailerons and flaps and it flies twice as good as it did with the foam wing. It is now 2.3 meters.

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Old 07-21-2014, 03:06 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Panther View Post
That is a nice looking Glider and the price seems very reasonable.
No shame in foam, but the wood definitely flies better. I have been flying a Phoenix 2000 for some time on and off. The only thing I liked was the plastic fuselage. Very tough stuff.
So I made a balsa wing for it and did away with the ailerons and flaps and it flies twice as good as it did with the foam wing. It is now 2.3 meters.

Very Cool!
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:29 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Porcia83 View Post
Sorry to hear about your loss. I had a fellow member take my Carbon Z CUB up this weekend without asking, or doing a preflight check, and stuffed it into the ground. Not a great day.

Anyway, I don't know about all the specs on each, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I think the Skip Miller one looks the best. I like the ones that look a bit different, and that fits the bill. If I'm not mistaken, it's similar to the BOP as well.

Good luck either way. A "real" glider is on my wish list after a DLG, I have a Radian now but want to step up to something nicer.
if he took it up without asking. I think he owes you a plane
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:51 PM   #10
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He helped me retrieve it, then said, wow...sorry, dunno what happened. Then he left within 10 minutes. Oh, and he has the same one too. If it was reversed, I would have handed over my complete plane, battery included and said, it's yours (assuming it was in good condition).

I've started maidening some planes for a few of the members in my club. I consider it an honor, and treat their planes as if they were mine of course. Even when asked,before I take off I say, are you sure this is what you want? Knock on wood they have all come back fine. If I had the sticks over to someone in my club, it's on me. Unless they do something intentionally, my thought is that I will take the loss of the plane if it crashes for any other reason, and that's because I handed it over. Worse yet, it was only the third flight!

Turns out I need about $80.00 worth of parts, and a few hours of foam repair, paint, and covering (I did not go with the stock color scheme). It would be nice if there is an offer on their part to pay, but you can't make people do the right thing, just hope.
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:50 PM   #11
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Did you ask him? I would say - hey man - were is my replacement plane? You broke mine, didn't ask for your help, or offer you a flight on my plane!!! "You owe me a plane".

Not cool but you are right - you can't make them do the right thing.

If you don't ask and let him know he owes you a plane - you need to establish that fact (even though you should not have to do that...)

Mike
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Old 07-26-2014, 07:19 PM   #12
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This plane is awesome. I will never miss the BOT

Not the website calls for 68 oz flying weight. Mine weighed 52 oz which makes its loading 9.4 oz/sq ft

it will float but a 10 mile an hour wind only means a little down trim.

It will turn in a very short radius without falling.... Like maybe 26 ft or so.. (this is probably an exaggeration but very tight..


Wow Love it!


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Old 07-31-2014, 11:42 PM   #13
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Looks great. Is that 52 oz all up? That is great.

What did you put in the glider? Motor, servos, etc.

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Old 08-01-2014, 02:59 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
Looks great. Is that 52 oz all up? That is great.

What did you put in the glider? Motor, servos, etc.
I used these turnigy metal gear servos
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dProduct=36916
I have found turigy stuff to be Very good quality. These servos Center perfectly every time. Centering and weight is my biggest concern on a glider. Of course, I will really regret the Turnigy decision if I loose a servo, but I have never had a bad Turnigy servo Unless I crashed...

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dProduct=48053

this motor which is a turnigy gliderdrive This motor is cool, it is an outrunner in a can with the electric connections coming out the back so you don't have to worry about rubbing them with the outside of the motor 960 KV 540 Watts.

I used a 12X6 prop and 3300 4 s lypo It will Nearly go verticle. I am sure I am over driving the motor but Since it runs in bursts It doesn't get very hot.

One little toss at 3/4 throttle and it is flying.

The website recommended a thin servo for the back operating the elevator but it was very difficult to fit through the whole so I wound up just using the micro servo.

This glider calls for a minimum of throw on the controls and I am using one of the inner most holes on the servo side and still have more throw than called for. anyway this thing just glides amazingly
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Old 08-01-2014, 03:55 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by drummaker View Post
Hi Everyone Thanks for your comments.

I have decided on this.
https://www.espritmodel.com/elipsoid-evo-28e-arf.aspx
I have had a bad year flying and have already destroyed 2 airplanes.

The BOT was a disaster waiting to happen the way the thing tried to loop when you launched it. Still I made a stupid mistake and it is pretty much destroyed. I Believe I could put it together, but it would no longer be the quality I wanted so

Wish me luck on the elipsoid. If I crash this one... I am making myself permanently limited to foam
Originally Posted by drummaker View Post
This plane is awesome. I will never miss the BOT

Not the website calls for 68 oz flying weight. Mine weighed 52 oz which makes its loading 9.4 oz/sq ft

it will float but a 10 mile an hour wind only means a little down trim.

It will turn in a very short radius without falling.... Like maybe 26 ft or so.. (this is probably an exaggeration but very tight..


Wow Love it!
Originally Posted by drummaker View Post
I used these turnigy metal gear servos
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dProduct=36916
I have found turigy stuff to be Very good quality. These servos Center perfectly every time. Centering and weight is my biggest concern on a glider. Of course, I will really regret the Turnigy decision if I loose a servo, but I have never had a bad Turnigy servo Unless I crashed...

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dProduct=48053

this motor which is a turnigy gliderdrive This motor is cool, it is an outrunner in a can with the electric connections coming out the back so you don't have to worry about rubbing them with the outside of the motor 960 KV 540 Watts.

I used a 12X6 prop and 3300 4 s lypo It will Nearly go verticle. I am sure I am over driving the motor but Since it runs in bursts It doesn't get very hot.

One little toss at 3/4 throttle and it is flying.

The website recommended a thin servo for the back operating the elevator but it was very difficult to fit through the whole so I wound up just using the micro servo.

This glider calls for a minimum of throw on the controls and I am using one of the inner most holes on the servo side and still have more throw than called for. anyway this thing just glides amazingly
52 ounces all up is very impressive and a full 14 ounces lighter than what is shown on the Esprit web site. I guess they made improvements on the glider and have not updated the web site. However since this one has been around a while, that all up might be based on old brushed motors and NiCd batteries.


Thanks very much for sharing your set-up.

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Old 08-01-2014, 04:39 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
52 ounces all up is very impressive and a full 14 ounces lighter than what is shown on the Esprit web site. I guess they made improvements on the glider and have not updated the web site.

Thanks very much for sharing your set-up.
Yes clearly this must be the case. I really wonder about the diffference. I could have used full size servos and still been nearly a pound light. I am thinking the write up was from the previous version. The new version has an extended fuselage to accommodate the new lighter motor and batteries.

I will say the covering job is insanely good. I am hard pressed to actually find seems. And it is beautiful. I have been wondering just how much stress I can put on these wings.
there is an extra spar in the 1st 2 to 3 feet of wing. I really haven't had much of a chance to fly it, but it really has an awesome glide ratio, and I was finding lift on a cloudy day.... Not much, but enough to glide for quite a while on one climb out.
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:05 PM   #17
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Default ESC & servo question

I am thinking of buying this glider. You mentioned the back servo? I don't have the plans. Is this for the rudder or elevator and what did you use. You liked the Hobby King servos did you use these in the back? Also what type of esc are you using with your setup.

I don't mind being a copy cat as I am new.

Thanks

Dave
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:25 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by NoResults View Post
I am thinking of buying this glider. You mentioned the back servo? I don't have the plans. Is this for the rudder or elevator and what did you use. You liked the Hobby King servos did you use these in the back? Also what type of esc are you using with your setup.

I don't mind being a copy cat as I am new.

Thanks

Dave
Dave:
sorry I took so long getting back. I have been on vacation.

The back servo is for the elevator. This typical of the more expensive gliders because accurate elevator control is critical in a glider. Definately look for a servo that centers well, and I would pick digital as they are often more accurate.
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:28 AM   #19
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Default News Flash

I am in love with the Elipsoid. This thing doesn't fly quite as slowly as the BOT but that is totally irrelevant. This Blider flies amazingly. The slightest thermal takes it up, and it glides forever.

Just Beautiful

I am not even going to think about rebuilding the BOT
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:18 AM   #20
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What are you using for an ESC?
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:31 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by NoResults View Post
What are you using for an ESC?
NOt sure as I don't consider an ESC as a big deal. Don't get me wrong, I think it is amazing that we can build something like this so cheap, but bells and whistles are not important to me in this area. The ESC is big enough to handle the 600 + watts this motor will draw with the 14+ volts the battery produces... That is all I can tell you.

I, in all probablility bought it from Hobbyking so it is probably either a Turnigy, or HK

Sorry I am not more helpful
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:02 PM   #22
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I will elaborate in case you don't understand this.

wattage = voltage times current. so if you look at a motor which will run 600 watts on a 14.6 volt battery you will need 600/14.6 amps

this means you would need a 41amp esc. There are different capabilities in various ESC's but if you are using normal equipment and I am sure you probably are, you will be able to do everything you want with just about any 45 amp esc.

That said make sure your ESC has a BEC (battery elimination circuit)

this will allow your reciever to run off of the ESC voltage instead of having to have a seperate battery.

Other than that the main differences are how much over your rated power it will pass. How heavy is it for the given amount of current... what timing capabilities does it have... etc

The only other thing you probably care about is weight (and they are all very similar) and the ability to have a brake function on the prop.. which they nearly all have.


Hope this helps
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:09 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by drummaker View Post
NOt sure as I don't consider an ESC as a big deal. Don't get me wrong, I think it is amazing that we can build something like this so cheap, but bells and whistles are not important to me in this area. The ESC is big enough to handle the 600 + watts this motor will draw with the 14+ volts the battery produces... That is all I can tell you.

I, in all probablility bought it from Hobbyking so it is probably either a Turnigy, or HK

Sorry I am not more helpful
If you have a "no name" ESC, I'd be a bit concerned about its BEC (Battery Elimination Circuit) if you're using the internal BEC.

Those BEC's can be either the "Linear" type, or "Switch Mode" type. Switchmodes are often identified as uBEC's or SBEC's. Linear type BEC's, especially on models of this size can be marginal in operation of your receiver and its servos.

If you're using a separate receiver battery, then disregard the above.

Take a look:

BEC Linear Current Rating
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63779

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Old 08-15-2014, 06:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
If you have a "no name" ESC, I'd be a bit concerned about its BEC (Battery Elimination Circuit) if you're using the internal BEC.

Those BEC's can be either the "Linear" type, or "Switch Mode" type. Switchmodes are often identified as uBEC's or SBEC's. Linear type BEC's, especially on models of this size can be marginal in operation of your receiver and its servos.

If you're using a separate receiver battery, then disregard the above.

Take a look:

BEC Linear Current Rating
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63779


Hey Kyle.. Thanks for the info. As someone who studied Electronics in the past (WAY PAST) I would like to interpret the info you provided using some research I have done and experience I have. Most of these BECS.. name or no name provide 3 amps... Some only 2 and many 5.... SBEC, UBEC, or Linear BEC is somewhat irrelevant except that a LBEC will nearly always use more power to produce it's output.
When you are looking at the SPECS of an ESC usually it will say SBEC or UBEC... If it doesn't I would just skip it and buy something else. These things are a dime a dozen any more.

When you are operating large planes with lots of full size servos you have to be carefull to make sure you are supplying enough power, and most of these people go with an external Battery. As long the BEC supplies enough current it will all work fine on receivers and servos designed to operate at 5V DC The High voltage stuff use either a different bec or a battery.

I know that linear BECs were common once, but like everything else in electronics, complexity is not really that much of a problem when you mass produce, so as far as I can tell SBEC and UBEC are pretty much the norm.

I know that a Linear BEC was basically linear voltage regulator. It controls output voltage by burning off the excess power. This is bad in high voltage situations because they have to burn off so much power, and provide so little output. I am not sure if anyone is still producing ESCs with these. I can tell you that the most common type of BEC in an ESC today is an SBEC which I believe is the same as UBEC just a different name

The SBEC and UBEC which are immune to the problems that linear BECs had or have.

An SBEC/UBEC converts the DC voltage to pulsating DC This happens at a rate which varies enough to produce a current supply just large enough to maintain the voltage you want to achieve. This pulsating DC is then smoothed out. This means that you can hook one up to any battery that will power it and not burn it out and get a good clean DC of a specific voltage. Pulsating DC is AC in the radio frequency interference world. I am sure does create some radio frequency interference, but with the quality of electronics and with spread spectrum, frequency hopping and such I doubt this will cause any real issues....

I did some investigation, and a standard full size servo draws about 1 amp stalled. This means it would take 3 stalled to overload most of these BECs. I am using micro servos on this BIG glider. I do this because it is not a hot liner and with a glider you spend most of your time nugging the plane around. I have not had a problem with micro servos in any glider, even th3 2.3 meter I use like a hotliner and do aerobatics and such.

I agree it is important to understand what you are getting into. I should NOT have told a newb to buy cheap stuff and not tell him the implications..

So thanks a bunch for the input. You are a gentleman and scholar and have mentored myself and many of us here... Quite Well
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Old 08-16-2014, 02:02 AM   #25
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Its not uncommon for the mini and micro servos to draw a good bit more than the larger std servos. Some of them can go to 2+ amps stalled. The difficulty is that most mfg's dont provide that information. You cannot not assume that a servo draws less just because it is smaller.

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