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Old 04-30-2013, 01:35 AM   #1
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Default Thunderbird 54 Throttle Cut Off

Hello all,

I'm having issues with (at least what I believe to be) my Thunderbird 54 esc.

Okay, I have a Skywalker setup for FPV with a Himax HC3516-1350 paired with a Thunderbird 54 esc from Castle Creations.
I have the esc mounted under the wing in a pretty tight space along with a Castle UBEC. This setup has performed flawlessly since I got it. However, lately I've been running my 11.1v 3s packs in parallel to get longer distances and times out of the Skywalker. Recently, while running 3/4 to full throttle on a 2200mah X 2 + 5000mah X 1 for a total of 9400mah the motor will just cut out. All I have to do is pull back on the throttle stick and push it forward and she takes off again, runs a bit, cuts off and we go through the whole bit again. Am I asking to much of the TB 54 and should I upgrade or could this be an overheating issue? Thanks for any help.

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Old 04-30-2013, 02:01 AM   #2
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99.9% of issues are not with the ESC - it in fact, is likely doing exactly what it is supposed to do, cut the power.

I am pretty sure you are reaching LVC for your packs and your ESC is doing it's job and cutting power.

You need a wattmeter to see if I am correct. I bet your voltage is dropping under load.

You also - should only parallel packs of very equal "C" ratings and capacities. So that is likely causing issues as well. Battery issues not ESC.

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Old 04-30-2013, 05:59 PM   #3
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Well... paralleling different C and/or capacity works if you are not exceeding the real current rating of the low rated pack (And that is being paranoid)
You can mix C ratings and capacities when paralleling (voltage must match) Its the low current capability pack you have to worry about. If you are not pulling more from that pack than it can safely deliver it won't be a problem.

You can't play games with series. C rating and capacity must match. But you can put a 2S in series with 3S for 5S. (or any other number of cells being added to get the needed voltage)
I commonly put 3S X4 or 4S X 3 in series for 12S.

I have a plan (confirmed by an Electrical Engineer) to use 4X 3S 2000 mah packs in series near an EDF + ESC to essentially act as huge capacitors due to long wire run to 12S 20,000 mah made up of 3 series, 4 parallel 5000 mah 4S packs.
(it will be quite a mess to deal with to charge that plane)
Long wire between battery and ESC can blow up the ESC due to "ripple" effect if there is not enough capacitor at the ESC.

******************

I suspect the real issue in this case is a bad parallel Y harness.

Everything still works fine with ANY one pack?
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:21 PM   #4
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My experience was the lowest "ability" pack will drain faster than the others. YMMV.

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Old 05-01-2013, 04:17 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Well... paralleling different C and/or capacity works if you are not exceeding the real current rating of the low rated pack (And that is being paranoid)
You can mix C ratings and capacities when paralleling (voltage must match) Its the low current capability pack you have to worry about. If you are not pulling more from that pack than it can safely deliver it won't be a problem.

You can't play games with series. C rating and capacity must match. But you can put a 2S in series with 3S for 5S. (or any other number of cells being added to get the needed voltage)
I commonly put 3S X4 or 4S X 3 in series for 12S.

I have a plan (confirmed by an Electrical Engineer) to use 4X 3S 2000 mah packs in series near an EDF + ESC to essentially act as huge capacitors due to long wire run to 12S 20,000 mah made up of 3 series, 4 parallel 5000 mah 4S packs.
(it will be quite a mess to deal with to charge that plane)
Long wire between battery and ESC can blow up the ESC due to "ripple" effect if there is not enough capacitor at the ESC.

******************

I suspect the real issue in this case is a bad parallel Y harness.

Everything still works fine with ANY one pack?
Thanks for the replies. Okay I checked the packs with a meter after each flight and they all show the exact amount of percentage remaining to a perfect number. For example, I ran the packs (total 9400mah combination of 2 2200s and a 5000) for about 7000mah according to my Hornet OSD. When I checked the packs they had the exact same voltage and showed the exact same percent remaining.

I'm really enjoying doing some high altitude flying and really want the extra flight times as I plan on some distance flights soon.

How could my parallel harness be "bad"? I made it myself and get a consistent read on a voltmeter when all packs are connected. Thanks again for your help.

Is it possible the packs are stressing the TB 54? I have no problem upgrading.

The cutout began doing low fly-bys and getting GoPro footage at high throttle. It cutout once and restarted just like that high altitude times and I was running a single 5000mah.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:45 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Pat Masac View Post
Thanks for the replies. Okay I checked the packs with a meter after each flight and they all show the exact amount of percentage remaining to a perfect number. For example, I ran the packs (total 9400mah combination of 2 2200s and a 5000) for about 7000mah according to my Hornet OSD. When I checked the packs they had the exact same voltage and showed the exact same percent remaining.

I'm really enjoying doing some high altitude flying and really want the extra flight times as I plan on some distance flights soon.

How could my parallel harness be "bad"? I made it myself and get a consistent read on a voltmeter when all packs are connected. Thanks again for your help.

Is it possible the packs are stressing the TB 54? I have no problem upgrading.

The cutout began doing low fly-bys and getting GoPro footage at high throttle. It cutout once and restarted just like that high altitude times and I was running a single 5000mah.
I've got only the Phoenix and ICE Castle Creations ESC's. Not the Thunderbirds. The ICE ESC's can be programmed for a "Soft power down" rather than just killing motor power. Check and see if your Thunderbirds also allow this motor cut off setting. Its much easier to do with the computer USB and ESC "Dongle" that CC sells.

What the soft power down does is reduce maximum motor power, to keep the battery voltage above the critical minimum value. (Just reducing throttle to 50% during flight can cut the current level to 15% of full throttle.) I've programmed all of my CC ESC's in this manner, it works well.

But, I never fly more than about 60-70% of the battery capacity on any flight, in case the model needs a go-around, someone is on the field, and so on.

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Old 05-01-2013, 01:24 PM   #7
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One word - Wattmeter....



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Old 05-01-2013, 04:15 PM   #8
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Plug one pack into the ESC and check that the motor operates properly with that pack.

plug that pack into the plane using that parallel Y between it and the ESC. and test operation. Results changing means the Y has a problem.
Test each of the 3 battery connections under load.

If the Y is adding resistance between the batteries and ESC then the LVC can trigger early. Added resistance can trigger the LVC even with good, fresh charged packs.

Its EASY to make a Y that has problems... Bad solder joint could do it. Several other things can do it.
The Y is something you can test and potentially eliminate as the source of the issue without a wattmeter.
So test it.

(edited in red)
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:18 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Plug one pack into the RX and check that the motor operates properly with that pack.

plug that pack into the plane using that parallel Y between it and the RX. and test operation. Results changing means the Y has a problem.
Test each of the 3 battery connections under load.

If the Y is adding resistance between the batteries and ESC then the LVC can trigger early. Added resistance can trigger the LVC even with good, fresh charged packs.

Its EASY to make a Y that has problems... Bad solder joint could do it. Several other things can do it.
The Y is something you can test and potentially eliminate as the source of the issue without a wattmeter.
So test it.
Do you mean plug one pack into the ESC? (Don't plug any three cell or more LiPo battery directly into the receiver. )

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Old 05-01-2013, 05:34 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Do you mean plug one pack into the ESC? (Don't plug any three cell or more LiPo battery directly into the receiver. )
yep... oops :p
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:28 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
yep... oops :p
LOL
Back before retiring, I did a stint on investigating and writing failure reports for our $$$$ high voltage thousand pound plus circuit breakers and their $6000 controls.

The boss was a real stickler for what those failure reports contained, to the point of being a real pain in the . We had to really be careful when working with a repeating problem, when the customer might have hundreds of the product 30 feet in the air on top of power poles.

The boss eventually got fired because of how he treated those that worked for him.

But, I did learn a tiny little bit on how to write this stuff.

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Old 05-02-2013, 03:20 AM   #12
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Thanks for all the replies. I'll try the harnesses I made this weekend compared to a single harness and see what happens.
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:57 PM   #13
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Default I'm Sold On The Watt Meter

Okay, you guys have convinced me, I ordered a watt meter. After reading I'm wondering how I made it this far without one.

Just one last question..

My power lead goes through a current sensor for my Hornet OSD. Should I bypass the current sensor when using the watt meter or is it irrelevant?
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:13 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Pat Masac View Post
Okay, you guys have convinced me, I ordered a watt meter. After reading I'm wondering how I made it this far without one.

Just one last question..

My power lead goes through a current sensor for my Hornet OSD. Should I bypass the current sensor when using the watt meter or is it irrelevant?
Yeah, for our electric powered models, not having a wattmeter is kind of like driving a car without a speedometer or gas gauge.

As for the current sensor, don't know what that would be, but these wattmeters would just plug directly between the battery and ESC. Do you by chance have a photo or similar of your current sensor?

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:42 PM   #15
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The wattmeter is a current sensor and voltmeter that does the math for you to give watts.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:01 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
The wattmeter is a current sensor and voltmeter that does the math for you to give watts.
Yeah
I MADE one from scratch some five years ago with a little microcontroller. It worked, but my Astroflight wattmeter is several orders of magnitude better, and the cost of the Astro unit is less than what I put into my wattmeter.

Since then, I've made up a dozen of my in flight monitors that keeps tract of total flights, total ampere hours, total flying time, plus Amps and Ampere hours during a flight.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43455

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Old 05-02-2013, 07:45 PM   #17
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I am flying FPV with this plane. The current sensor is between the esc and the battery and feeds an overlay display (osd) onto my monitor. My plane (Skywalker) has a long range system (EZUHF) and is capable of flying several miles away. The battery information I have onscreen is MAHs used, Amps, voltage remaining, etc. One thing I have noticed since this condition (cut outs) started is an extremely jumpy amp reading on my monitor. Normally, say full throttle, it is pulling a steady 40 amps. Now it seems to fluctuate wildly under load. This can be stressful when your plane is two miles away and you suddenly see 0 amps being pulled at throttle.

So, I'm assuming that my current sensor isn't as accurate as a watt meter. It easy to bypass the current sensor with the watt meter. My question was whether or not the current sensor would have any effect on the meter. I hope this isn't too confusing. I flew line of sight for years and learning all the ins and outs of FPV was an arduous but rewarding journey.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:45 PM   #18
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You current sensor may be showing you an intermittent connect in your power system...

It may also be showing you hitting edge of useful range of the 2.4 ghz RC system for your installation.
2.4 ghz useful range can vary quite a bit with which aircraft and which RX is in it.

It shouldn't bother the wattmeter at all.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:04 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
You current sensor may be showing you an intermittent connect in your power system...

It may also be showing you hitting edge of useful range of the 2.4 ghz RC system for your installation.
2.4 ghz useful range can vary quite a bit with which aircraft and which RX is in it.

It shouldn't bother the wattmeter at all.
Agreed:
Two miles is about the maximum range for our 2.4Ghz radios. I would be worried on anything much over a mile.

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Old 05-03-2013, 12:46 AM   #20
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Perhaps I should have been more clear. My system is not 2.4 ghz. I'm using a long range system from Immersion RC called EZUHF. EZUHF takes the PPM signal from a 72mhz or a 2.4ghz and puts out a 433mhz ham radio frequency through an external module that can go for miles and miles. I think some guy reached 60 miles with a similar system. There are others, most notably Dragonlink, Chainlink and Rangelink that operate under the same principal.

My video link is 2.4ghz but that isn't my only choice. However, my video frequency does limit me flying at my local sanctioned field due to the fact that the other pilots 2.4 drives my video crazy! So, I mainly fly at my local field when flying line of sight and go elsewhere for FPV. However, I think you've answered my question- the current sensor should have no bearing on the watt meter.

Thanks.
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:14 AM   #21
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For hobby level (most of us on this board) we don't really need beyond line of sight range.

It may be "pretty cool" to go further with FPV, but there are some who are not doing it responsibly (not pointing at any particular person) and the FAA has been getting upset.

Nothing against the guys who THINK and try to do it right. (safely)

It just takes one joker doing something really stupid and we'll have a whole world of regulations very fast... if not having FPV banned completely.

Note that Texas had a law proposed that if passed would make it illegal to do hobby level FPV, or to mount a camera on a model.
(not sure of status of that proposal. Hoping it fails)

Please be safe about your FPV flying.

***************

It is still possible that the current meter in your installation is warning you of range issues or of a failing connection somewhere.

If its a failing connect its possible for it to be the current sensor and not affecting power... or it could be a bad solder joint between battery and ESC.
Lots of possible places to have an issue.
Start listing each piece of wire and each solder joint or connection and then test them... If its not there its a range issue.

Range issues are possible for all sorts of reasons with any type radio system. I had bad servos cause a good 72 mhz system's range drop to 10 feet (TX antenna extended). Replaced the servos and got my normal 350 yards with TX antenna collapsed.
Strange stuff happens...
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:29 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post

Range issues are possible for all sorts of reasons with any type radio system. I had bad servos cause a good 72 mhz system's range drop to 10 feet (TX antenna extended). Replaced the servos and got my normal 350 yards with TX antenna collapsed.
Strange stuff happens...
Reminds me of my giant scale Piper Cub I built in the late 1990's. Power was an Astroflight 90 brush type motor with a home made gearbox.

Radio interference was so bad, I got 10 feet radio range. With the 72 Mhz antenna fully extended.

It took a lot of investigation to determine cause of problem and clear it up. Found it was the brushes, a pair of one inch diameter toroid ferrite chokes in the motor leads cleaned it up.

When the brushless motors came out, I sold that Astro 90 motor on Ebay for $200.

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Old 05-03-2013, 02:26 PM   #23
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fhhuber, Not to hijack my own thread and get into a debate over FPV, but I agree with many of the points you made. However, to date there has been no issue with anyone being hurt or property damage related to FPV with pilots all over the globe. I do not fly recklessly and have auto-return and many other safety features on my plane (which is a foamy).

I started flying line of sight with gassers around 1989 when I was 21 years old and still fly line of sight and enjoy it- mainly with my Slow Stick X which is, in my opinion, the most enjoyable plane I've ever flown. I gave up gas planes after getting tons of great advice and learning from this board. I knew nothing and everything I know about electric flight I learned on here. That reminds me, I have a couple of O.S. engines I need to put on Ebay!!

But, back to the topic, I'm going to take you guys' advice and check my harnesses along with all other possible points of weakness when my watt meter comes in. I won't be flying this plane until the problem is resolved on the bench. I look forward to learning how to use the watt meter and checking my other planes.
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:45 PM   #24
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The wattmeter will be very easy. Plug it in between battery and ESC and it works.

For those with a button to select the display the main info you need is on the default screen. I almost never look at the other screens and can't remember what is there. Default screen shows volts, current and watts (volts * current).

I think there is an option to show total amp-hr and watts since the wattmeter was turned on.... But I use a logging ESC and/or the charger display to show what I had to put back into the battery which gives me the info I need.

I use the wattmeter less now because my radio system has telemetry that gives the volts and amps in flight.

*******************

I am not anti-FPV. Just made the note to tell other people to pay attention to safety.

From your questions and other comments I had a good idea that you were trying to be safe.
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