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View Full Version : Economy is BAD??? Why is prices so high? DOES NOT COMPUTE!!


SmoothCruizer
09-25-2008, 03:12 PM
If they economy is bad and nothing is selling well, why the %#$% is stuff so high???? In fact im thinking of NOT buying batteries now and buying cheaper stuff..... Voice your OPINION HERE and/or what are your plans.... Scott:mad::(:mad:

Figure.N9ne
09-25-2008, 03:18 PM
If they economy is bad and nothing is selling well, why the %#$% is stuff so high???? In fact im thinking of NOT buying batteries now and/or going cheap on stuff..... Voice your OPINION HERE!!!! Scott:mad::(:mad:

because the dollar is low, and the oil is high. it takes more money to bring things into the country.

SmoothCruizer
09-25-2008, 03:41 PM
so everything is made overseas now? bravo.... Opinions not explanations pls?:D

Angler-Hi
09-25-2008, 03:50 PM
Scott, I believe everything is so high because of what this country is spending on the war. Granted, Bush claims we are no longer at war, but as a soldier, I can tell you we don't really see any difference. To be honest, I don't know what you're supposed to call it when you're over there conducting "combat" missions and getting shot at. To ME that's a war. Not only that, but we have TWO campaigns going on...one in Iraq and the other in Afghanistan.

Figure.N9ne
09-25-2008, 04:01 PM
so everything is made overseas now? bravo.... Opinions not explanations pls?:D

pretty much everything used for this hobby is made overseas or using overseas parts, except for a few things. also it costs more to ship things within the country now and that cost is passed on to us.

and my plan is to continue buying, really have no choice. its either buy or stop enjoying my hobby.

TLyttle
09-25-2008, 05:26 PM
Seems to me the Germans ran into trouble by opening the war on 2 fronts: those who do not learn from history etc...

I sure wish everyone would stop yowling about stuff being "too expensive"! This hobby has been getting cheaper and cheaper for decades, and it is no different now with the amazing level of technologies we are offered. You think you are spending a lot of money now? Quit this hobby and golf, fish, buy a boat, race cars, etc. Then you will find out what an expensive hobby really costs.

And if we are complaining about "stuff being built overseas", think about how it got this way: we were so bent on paying less for stuff that we- you and me- forced onshore manufacturers out of business, simple as that.

I keep a copy of MAN '62 annual on my desk, just to remind myself of what the hobby used to be like: I was making a good living (for a young guy) at $300/mo, so multiply everything by x6 or so for today's dollars.

S/C .15-size kit $14.95
Engine for it $19.95
Gallon of fuel $5.50
4-channel r/c $495.00 (NOT including nicad power packs)
... and on and on...

All this equipment was manufactured in the US.

Get the picture?

Bub Steve
09-25-2008, 05:41 PM
TLyttle (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=4729)::I dissagree my bub,'multiply everything by x6 or so for today's dollars".????? money was worth 6 times more then too!! I live off 10.000$ a year, Are you say'in I should'in be in this hobby? I've been RC'in for 47 years and well remember the $$$$spent and the elitist way many RCer's were and sometimes still are,, We just got different ways of look'in at it I guess, your good bub, stevePS heres a 26 year old I still fly!!

Angler-Hi
09-25-2008, 06:52 PM
Seems to me the Germans ran into trouble by opening the war on 2 fronts: those who do not learn from history etc...

I sure wish everyone would stop yowling about stuff being "too expensive"! This hobby has been getting cheaper and cheaper for decades, and it is no different now with the amazing level of technologies we are offered. You think you are spending a lot of money now? Quit this hobby and golf, fish, buy a boat, race cars, etc. Then you will find out what an expensive hobby really costs.

And if we are complaining about "stuff being built overseas", think about how it got this way: we were so bent on paying less for stuff that we- you and me- forced onshore manufacturers out of business, simple as that.

I keep a copy of MAN '62 annual on my desk, just to remind myself of what the hobby used to be like: I was making a good living (for a young guy) at $300/mo, so multiply everything by x6 or so for today's dollars.

S/C .15-size kit $14.95
Engine for it $19.95
Gallon of fuel $5.50
4-channel r/c $495.00 (NOT including nicad power packs)
... and on and on...

All this equipment was manufactured in the US.

Get the picture?

Hello friend. I would have to agree to disagree with some of that. First, I happen to be an avid fisherman (hint: my username "Angler"-Hi). I have to say that this hobby is far more expensive than fishing. I fish almost every other day...if the wife lets me get away:p>. I also fish EVERY weekend, and while there may be times that new gear is needed, it's no where near as often as parts in this hobby. This is just one example.

As far as not learning from history, well I agree. But we have our leaders of industry to thank for that, and I'm sure our wonderful government had quite a hand in it too. I have only been in the hobby for a year, but things do appear to be getting more expensive friend. I am sure you have been in this hobby for quite sometime, so you probably have a deeper insight, so I will apologize for my ignorance, but not what it appears to be to me.

Not to stand on a high horse, but I'm a U.S. soldier. So, as long as I deploy and engage the enemy to defend our way of life, I'll complain about anything I want to when it comes to this country... that's a right I've EARNED.

I DO wish things were different and our countrymen before us didn't screw the little man by giving production contracts to foreign countries...I think it sucks, and couldn't agree with you more. Just my $0.02 friend.

SmoothCruizer
09-25-2008, 07:47 PM
Im sitting here thinking if these companies are taking losses in stock, why do they gamble on us??? and they still gamble with gains in the Stock exchange too.... WTF? I would sell my stuff cheap to the customer so he keeps coming back for more and not keep bringing out bigger and badder planes but keeping the customer happy as the same time would be a plus. Maybe their suppliers are really going low to the freakin bottom of the barrel so they can split a good share..... and 2) im considering just piece by piece of used parts from other fellow pilots who really need the cash so they get over the slump we are in....:p>::o

Buck Rogers
09-25-2008, 08:34 PM
Its strange, the US Dollar might have gone down in value but I can assure you that the British Pound has gone down more - I haven't really seen massive price increases over here yet.

chynewalker
09-25-2008, 09:50 PM
i work in a industry were we buy aftermarket parts, let me say something, this price increase stuff is all a scam put on by big buisness. sure some of it is real such as in commoditys like steel copper ect. but increase the manufacture gets compared to the increase the consumer sees are much different and this shouldnt be.

for example i see a widget that used to cost 1.00 now costs 1.20, yet the consumer gets socked with a 50 percent increase vs the 20 percent that the manufacture got. its all a way to make more money for big buisness, in some cases i see quality made in the usa parts get outsources to china for a fraction of the old cost and still sold at the same price to the public.

what is it all about? executive bonus's tied to corporate profit.

gzsfrk
09-25-2008, 10:36 PM
$15 + $6 shipping for a brushless motor, 18A ESC, prop and mount (http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4853&Product_Name=TowerPro_BM2408-21T_/_18A_BEC_/_9x3.8_Prop_Combo) is expensive? I'm not complaining. When I was a kid, I remember seeing the cheapest RC planes for $200+ -- in 1980s dollars. When I first started into this hobby back in December, it was with a $30 Yellow Bee from Harbor Freight. My second (http://www.raidentech.com/3sdj3picubre.html) and third (http://www.raidentech.com/rtfwiha54el3.html) planes (both RTFs) were $70 each with free shipping. And you can STILL get them at that same price. The most I have in any plane is my Rambler (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39307) gas-electric conversion, into which I've now invested about $200.

I've been in and out of several hobbies during my life (video games, custom built computers, paintball, home theater, to name a few), and RC planes has actually been the cheapest on a "per unit purchased" basis, with the possible exception of model rockets (but the consumables in that hobby eat you alive). I mean, I can build a fully outfitted Slow Stick with brushless, LiPo, servos, and 72mhz receiver for what a single new release video game costs. So again--I'm not complaining. :)

Angler-Hi
09-25-2008, 11:01 PM
Wow, you can build a plane like that for $60.00? That's about what a new video gane costs. I do agree that all those parts for $15.00+$6.00 shipping is a great deal...but I just paid $12.00 for a set of blades and $8.00 for shipping via UPS. I get an e-mail confirming my order was shipped for a total cost of $21.00 and that my package would be coming via USPS. So even though I paid for UPS ground, I get it shipped to me for 1/3 of the shipping cost I originally paid! I've never been the one to bicker about $a few dollars, but if you're gonna adjust the shipping method, then by God how about adjusting the price!? Someone's getting paid and they don't care how. This is just an example, and this is the first time this has happened to me, so I won't bad mouth the store.

As for the RTF planes for such a low price...if it's what does it for you, the I say go for it. I don't judge friend. However, when I'm looking for a good quality kit by some of the bigger names in the hobby, and they raise the price by more than 30%, and I see it at several different stores...most people expect the price of products that have been out for quite a while to decrease, or at least go on sale from time to time...but not increase after it's been out for well over a few years. I have watched some of these planes come out, go down on the price (not on sale) and now jump up higher than what they were when they first came out. How can we NOT have an opinion on that? Ok, so we can still get good deals on some of the other stuff, but more and more of it is starting to climb in price. I think that's why there are threads about it...it's noticeable enough to start asking questions.

gzsfrk
09-25-2008, 11:33 PM
Wow, you can build a plane like that for $60.00?


GWS Slow Stick Slope Glider kit = $19 + sales tax from LHS
TP2408-21 combo (http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4853) + 2 9g servos (http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5456) from HobbyCity + $5.95 shipping = $26.13
Esky 72mhz 6-channel Receiver (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10782) = $11.98 from DealExtreme.com (free shipping)
Mystery 15C 900mah 2S LiPo (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7621) = $7.98 from DealExtreme.com (free shipping)
Total shipped = ~$66.93

New Release Xbox 360 or PS3 game = $59.99 + tax

Sales tax rate is 9.75% most places in Tennessee, so that would put the total price of a new game for me at $65.84. Close enough. :)

To be fair, you'd also need at least ONE female JST connector to go on the brushless ESC to plug the battery into (although I decided to go with a set of Deans, myself). So add in another .25 to the cost of the Slow Stick to cover the power connector for the ESC. ;)

As for the RTF planes for such a low price...if it's what does it for you, the I say go for it. I don't judge friend.

Just to be clear, I wasn't necessarily recommending the planes to which I linked in my previous post. I was just using them for reference that everything isn't necessarily getting more expensive; you just have to be savvy about where you shop and what you buy. :)

Angler-Hi
09-25-2008, 11:36 PM
I agree friend. I'm starting to look at these helis now, and I don't know if prices on them have gone up or not, but WOW! Of course I'm looking at the T-Rex 600:D.

TLyttle
09-26-2008, 03:03 AM
I'm not sure I get your point, Steve. What I said was that you take the quoted prices, and multiply by AT LEAST 6 for today's prices. $33 for a gallon of fuel is the same, but nearly $3,000 for a 4-channel radio, or over $100 for a simple 15? I still say that the hobby was more expensive 40 years ago.

And I would NEVER suggest that you shouldn't be in the hobby! I have had my down times, and was able to stay in the hobby by substituting rubber power (Peanuts) for r/c equipment. There are few hobbies out there that allow that flexibility. And some of my freeflight and control line models are old as well, my engines MUCH older...

As far as fishing is concerned, if you have your equipment, and aren't supporting a boat and the vehicle to tow it, fishing is inexpensive alright. But I am still using my 27-year-old Futaba AM radio...

Angler-Hi
09-26-2008, 03:54 AM
I wasn't trying to argue friend. Please don't think that. I'm just throwing my thoughts out there, trying to be social. I have nothing but the deepest respect for your experiences and knowledge of the hobby, as well as for your understanding of how things were and are. Good winds TLyttle.

Mike

Bub Steve
09-26-2008, 03:57 AM
TLyttle (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=4729)I:: I'm just gett'in old and crotch-o-dee, What were we talk'in about?your bub, steve

Saucerguy2
09-26-2008, 04:09 AM
Being a business owner, I get insight into the "why are things so expensive now" perspective, it all boils down to absolutely one single thing, the cost of fuel.

I'll elaborate with the seemingly simple process of building a wooden box and getting it to market, sold.

It now costs more fuel to grow the replacement trees, of which costs more fuel to harvest the mature ones, it costs more fuel for the mill to prep the wood to cost more fuel to be transported to the plywood factory. It costs more fuel to process it into a viable piece of raw material. It then costs more money to ship it to the various distributors. It then costs more money for them to move the product to their shelves via. forklift. It costs more money for the manufacturer to pick it up from their warehouse, it costs more money for them to deliver it. It then costs more money to fabricate that little plywood box into something ready to ship out. It then costs more money to pay the shipping company to pick up and deliver the product. It then costs more money for it to be stocked on the retailers shelves, both on physically doing so, but as well as having to sit on the inventory longer because they have to convince the final client that it is worth spending 20.00 in gas just to browse around his store.

This in turn is only a small subsection of it, the same thing is happening with the hardware, finish material's, packaging and anything else that goes into it, not to mention, along each step of this process, the staff pay more at the pump to simply commute to work, to pay their bills, to cover the increased costs of everything they consume, their companies are then forced to increase their pay, thus adding onto the overhead and the costs have to be made up somewhere or they will go out of business and the staff no longer have a job.

Bottom line, control the costs of fuel, you control the economy.

Figure.N9ne
09-26-2008, 11:58 AM
Being a business owner, I get insight into the "why are things so expensive now" perspective, it all boils down to absolutely one single thing, the cost of fuel.

I'll elaborate with the seemingly simple process of building a wooden box and getting it to market, sold.

It now costs more fuel to grow the replacement trees, of which costs more fuel to harvest the mature ones, it costs more fuel for the mill to prep the wood to cost more fuel to be transported to the plywood factory. It costs more fuel to process it into a viable piece of raw material. It then costs more money to ship it to the various distributors. It then costs more money for them to move the product to their shelves via. forklift. It costs more money for the manufacturer to pick it up from their warehouse, it costs more money for them to deliver it. It then costs more money to fabricate that little plywood box into something ready to ship out. It then costs more money to pay the shipping company to pick up and deliver the product. It then costs more money for it to be stocked on the retailers shelves, both on physically doing so, but as well as having to sit on the inventory longer because they have to convince the final client that it is worth spending 20.00 in gas just to browse around his store.

This in turn is only a small subsection of it, the same thing is happening with the hardware, finish material's, packaging and anything else that goes into it, not to mention, along each step of this process, the staff pay more at the pump to simply commute to work, to pay their bills, to cover the increased costs of everything they consume, their companies are then forced to increase their pay, thus adding onto the overhead and the costs have to be made up somewhere or they will go out of business and the staff no longer have a job.

Bottom line, control the costs of fuel, you control the economy.


exactly, i had a tile store that went bankrupt a few months back. shipping costs from spain, brazil, and china kept getting higher and higher because of fuel costs. the cost of getting the merchandise from the freighter to us via truck was higher also, the fuel for our forklift was higher, and also the fuel for our delivery vehicles kept on rising. the consumer wasnt willing to pay the difference and eventually we couldnt hold out any longer and here i am, unemployed now.

Angler-Hi
09-26-2008, 01:13 PM
That sucks Yaniel. That's one thing that gets me though...we all complain about the rising prices, but most of us, including myself (until now), don't realize how this affects our fellow man who's own "bread and butter" is affected by this recession. Most of us work for someone else and don't have to worry that much about job security, but those who own or work for the small businesses have it alot harder. If there's anything I can do friend, let me know.

Mike

idealhobbies
09-26-2008, 02:19 PM
I watched President Bush's speech the other night. That's what was missing from the whole thing! FUEL! Period.
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He blamed the failing economy and banks due to foreclosures, but what he didn't hit on was the fact that the price of fuel is the main cause (my opinion) for the sharp increase in foreclosures.<O:p></O:p>
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"Average Joe" or "Bub" (for the Cooper family) is sitting at the table with his head in his hands every payday. Why? Because when he bought his house in 2000, he sat down and did his budget for what he could afford. His mortgage was based off of a budget where gas cost 1/3 of what it does now. Clothes for his kids were cheaper, food on the table was cheaper, his car and insurance was cheaper. Things were better.
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In 2003, things were looking good for Bub. He and Mrs. Bub felt secure in their finances and went ahead and bought a new SUV because Mrs. Bub was expecting their 2<SUP>nd</SUP> child. Gas hit $1.54 a gallon, but Bub thought that everything would be ok. Gas won’t stay that high. It’s the war, he thought, and that won’t last much longer.
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In 2004, Bub and Mrs. Bub were a little tight, but making it ok. They started limiting their travel a bit, cut back a little on the unnecessary items. “Little Bubette” was out of diapers, so there was a little money back in the weekly budget, they’ll be ok. “Damn, this gas is getting crazy” ($1.98 a gallon).<O:p></O:p>
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Spring of 2005, gas is $2.25 A gallon, and the power company is raising their rates 32% (actual % from Delmarva Power) starting July 1<SUP>st</SUP>. Bub knows that they’re in trouble when this increase takes effect. After a discussion with Mrs. Bub, he decides to get a part time job at the local Lowes. Bub thinks, “Lowes has always been a stable place to work, and he’s always heard good things about the place, why not. Besides, they are still building houses like mad around here, so the work should be pretty secure.”
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2006, Bub’s oldest child is now in school. Bub Jr. needs school clothes because the local school district decided to go to school uniforms. Not only did they go to uniforms, they sent home a long list of supplies they say that Bub Jr. needs. The list includes items like, 4 boxes of tissue (?), 8 rolls of toilet paper (?), a mini stapler (?), paper clips (?), crayons, markers, 4 rolls of paper towels (?), and various other things. Bub wonders what happened to the money that he pays in school taxes. The housing market is slowing down and there are rumors about staff reductions at Lowes.
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2007, the housing market takes a dump, Gas is well over $3.00 a gallon, and Bub falls victim to the “Staff Reduction” at Lowes. He tries to sell the SUV because he needs a vehicle with better gas mileage and to get out from underneath the payments. No one will take it. Groceries have almost doubled and they’re in deep trouble. Bub starts to do “creative finances” every payday. “Ok, I’m $200 short this payday, so I’ll hold off on the mortgage payment until next payday, and make up the $200 next payday”. Next payday comes, and he’s short again. Now he’s in deep trouble.<O:p></O:p>
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This is a scenario that is playing out all over the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.wattflyer.com/forums/ /><st1:country-region w:st=<st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>. I’ll bet that most people here know someone in this boat. This scenario is what concerns me the most because it can be any one of us at any time. It’s the “Bub’s” that the government is letting down. President Bush talked about the bank and the financial sectors of <st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Wal Street</st1:address></st1:Street> the other night, but he really didn’t talk about the “Bub Family” and the impact that the economy is having on their little piece of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">America</st1:place></st1:country-region>. The country is headed for some very bad times, but it’s not because of people being financially irresponsible, is because they’re budgets have been blown out of the water due to the price of fuel. The over inflated price of oil is nothing more than a legal terrorist attack on the American economy.

gzsfrk
09-26-2008, 04:00 PM
Well said, idealhobbies. While I don't think your analysis covers the entire breadth of the situation (you forgot the part about where the Bubs decided, during the "good" times, to load up on incentivized credit card debt in order to buy a fancy home theater and lovely furnishings for that big new house, which is entirely their own fault), but I think you did in fact list a very real and all too common scenario from today's socio-economic landscape. And the fact that our President and the congress fail to even acknowledge this in spoken word is a sad indictment on our leadership from both sides of the aisle.

gzsfrk
09-26-2008, 04:14 PM
If there's anything I can do friend, let me know.

At a high level, you could do research on the candidates listed on your ballot running at all levels of government (local, state, and federal) and then vote for candidates who are fiscally conservative (REDUCE GOVERNMENT SPENDING) and also support sweeping reforms of both the corporate structure in the US and a proactive, aggressive approach on energy policy (increase domestic oil production and refining, heavy emphasis on bringing renewable/alternative energy sources online ASAP, regulate the bejeezus out of the domestic oil corporations, et. al.).

Ultimately, we have no one to blame but our collective selves for continuing to elect the same self-serving, self-aggrandizing, ego-stroking bozos (or class of bozos) over and over and over again. Nearly everyone has access to the wealth of information on the Internet nowadays, so there's simply no excuse for being uninformed. At this point, if you don't know enough about the candidates on your ballot, it's simply due to personal apathy. Just don't cry when you can't afford gas, groceries, and your house payment while the government is handing $700 billion of the money they yanked from our paychecks to Wall Street dine-and-dashers who laugh while floating to the ground in their golden parachutes.

TLyttle
09-26-2008, 06:13 PM
Mike and Steve, sorry if I came across as being combative; I was trying to show that the hobby isn't really any more expensive than it ever was.

I have always disliked unnecessary waste; I throw away very little, and buy as few packaged products as I can. Here we are in the most wasteful economy in the world, where the landfills are loading up faster than a politicians pocket, and we don't see the problem. In Europe, plastic or paper bags are a recent thing: they take their shopping bags and go to get the groceries. Some of the products are wrapped most are not. Can you hear the screaming if such a practice was mandated here? "It's unsanitary!!" Well, the fact is that we also live in a world that is too sanitary: disposable diapers? 2 showers a day? Then we complain about landfills hitting limits, and water shortages...

Recycling is 80 years too late. We should be digging out the landfills and recycling the tons of paper, plastic, glass, etc that went in there over the decades. Costs too much? Whose fault is that? We are gonna get bit at one end or the other, you choose.

As far as models are concerned, I seldom buy anything that I can have flying in a day. I see the hobby as a complete activity, learning what I can from every aspect of building and flying a model. I actually have bought a couple of foamies over the years, and was unimpressed: I would rather start with a plan and some balsa.

Anyhow, there is the rant of a (slightly demented?) 70-year-old, but that is the way I see the hobby, and the world, just as if you would be interested!!!

aviatordave
09-26-2008, 06:17 PM
Tylittle -

How does Canada handle their waste? is there mandatory recycling for the country or just parts?

Most communities here have mandatory recycling with the exception of some rural communities. Where I live we also handle our own landfills. Again, some communities ship there garbage off to another landfill since we have the 'I dont want that in my backyard' thinking....or it isnt feasible with a higher water table.

Angler-Hi
09-26-2008, 08:07 PM
No worries TLyttle! We're all friends here just having a good ole conversation. Alot of what you say makes sense to me friend.

gfdengine204
09-26-2008, 08:26 PM
Ultimately, we have no one to blame but our collective selves for continuing to elect the same self-serving, self-aggrandizing, ego-stroking bozos (or class of bozos) over and over and over again. Nearly everyone has access to the wealth of information on the Internet nowadays, so there's simply no excuse for being uninformed. At this point, if you don't know enough about the candidates on your ballot, it's simply due to personal apathy. Just don't cry when you can't afford gas, groceries, and your house payment while the government is handing $700 billion of the money they yanked from our paychecks to Wall Street dine-and-dashers who laugh while floating to the ground in their golden parachutes.

Unfortunately, we have a hard time voting in NEW representatives for the people, since politics is no longer seen as something people do FOR their constituents, but is now a profession. You have to have money to get into high level politics. Even local politics has gotten too expensive for the common person to break into. With all the money from special interests and lobbyists (don't even talk to me about "reform"; that is a joke) the common folk can't have their voice heard.

I have often wondered what it would be like were I to run for office. If elected, I would be constantly asking my constituents their opinions and thoughts for what I should be doing for THEM. When is the last time your elected officials asked YOU what you want their employee (the elected official) to do you YOU?

Angler-Hi
09-26-2008, 09:18 PM
Anyone ever see the movie Bulworth? Now THAT'S the kind of politician I wanna see!

Saucerguy2
09-26-2008, 09:25 PM
exactly, i had a tile store that went bankrupt a few months back. shipping costs from spain, brazil, and china kept getting higher and higher because of fuel costs. the cost of getting the merchandise from the freighter to us via truck was higher also, the fuel for our forklift was higher, and also the fuel for our delivery vehicles kept on rising. the consumer wasnt willing to pay the difference and eventually we couldnt hold out any longer and here i am, unemployed now.

You would be surprised how fragile most businesses are, especially those that have not rounded out their diversification. There are things that can be done to counter this recession, and in fact, things that can be done to take advantage of it. What I have manufactured in the past is designed to last a very, very long time, my competitors do not think in such long terms and now is where this thinking has proven itself to pay off. That cart I built 10-20 years ago will get refurbished rather then replaced, that cheap knock off I was competing with has reached the end of it's life span and now requires a full replacement, now the price is at a premium and the consumer is looking back realizing, it's better and cheaper to buy quality over quantity even though the initial up front costs are higher. There is also an excellent tactic that can be worked out with anything that's sold in the high dollar range.

How the above works, let's say you quote someone 40k for an item today, they decide to save up for it, it takes them a year to do so, that same item now costs 50k, this is where cheap financing automatically pays for itself, you finance now at 40k + 10% interest, you are not tying up your working capitol, and have stayed ahead of the curve since the interest rate will be lower then the inflationary rate.

Currently I do not stay with just my one small nitch anymore, I would not survive as a business if I did not. I do everything from manufacturing rc foamies, freelance IT work on pretty much all levels, custom building of anything and everything, both commercial and residential, espresso machine repair, expanded commercial food service equipment distribution, business consulting and efficiency analysis, just for starts. I'm now delving into the daycare and childrens furniture world as well, and I will be hiring on the staff from a company that's going belly up that is focused on that nitch, it's going belly up mainly due to severe mismanagement and the lack of ability to cope with the changing market trends and economy.

I stand strong in the dead center of this recession because I have made the necessary changes, luckily I'm a small enough operation to be able to cope in this manner, this quickly, most companies cannot do this so are doomed to failure.

I also watch the stock market, it finally hit rock bottom, it's wavering a bit, but it's going to bounce back on it's own as investors change their habits, if Bush manages to do the bail out, that will only put a bandaid on a fundamental problem we have with the system, ie. people are not investing correctly, not really analyzing the comapanies they are investing with and are blindly basing what they invest upon outdated techniques, it's time they redefine the industry standards.

Rabbitcreekok
09-26-2008, 11:27 PM
The single largest item you guys (idealhobbies and gzsfrk) left out of your narratives in the ARM that Average Joe used to purchase his house. Ole Joe bought a really nice house, actually more than he could afford, without that ARM that the nice banker showed him. Wow, says Joe, I can actually buy THAT house on my income? Thats so great cause Mrs. Joe loves THAT house.

Now the nice banker has sold the ARM to Fannie Mae or Freddy Mac, as the case may be, when the ARM kicks in and Joe's monthly payment goes from say, $750 per month to $1,750 per month. Now Joe cannot make his payment and he can't sell his house, because he got into it for no equity and the house was over valued anyway. On top of that, the houses in Joe's area have decreased in value, so he is seriously upside down in his house.

So now Joe has to default on his loan. Multiply that by lots and lots of Average Joe's and we have our current situation. It would have happened regardless of what the price of fuel did, the increasing price of fuel only made it worse. Joe has no chance of getting caught up unless he can redo his loan. And he can't redo his loan because the lenders are strapped and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were just federalized and can't help.

Something may happen in time to help Joe, but it looks bad.

Saucerguy2
09-27-2008, 01:45 AM
When the price of fuel reached $2.00, that was the beginning of the end, that is where I observed everything beginning to skyrocket. If the feds kicked in and nipped it in the bud, forcing a price freeze and supplementing the local operations losses, we would absolutely not be in this situation. When it reached 3.00 + per gallon, I watched the entire infrastructure turn upside down, businesses going out of business left and right and those that are residing within the large corporate sector are only treading water, it's only a matter of time before even the big boy's fail. What happens in small business is only an indication of what is to come.

We are now observing the beginning of big business failing, banks are at the top of that list, but it will spread into all sectors quite quickly. Here are some real world numbers from the very source of a local company that shows the decline in real time, this is not a huge company, but it is not exactly small and it's teetering into oblivian, I'll give it one year max before they shut their doors.

These numbers are in the $Million mark:

2002 - 1,760
2003 - 2,347
2004 - 1,989
2005 - 1,528
2006 - 1,473
2007 - 1,275

The only reason they did not close their doors in 2007 is because someone extended $190,000 credit to them, that credit can and will be called back any time and they have nothing to cover it with, so, one phone call and it's the end of the line for them. The only reason they were able to hold on before getting that credit was by mortgaging both of their homes 3 times.

I am not naming the company for liability reasons, but can you see how this works, I got this information from the very source so the figures are untainted.

Bub Steve
09-27-2008, 02:01 AM
idealhobbies (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=18781):: I was drink'in a "NA" when I read your post,,,,,BAD IDEA!!!...It's all over my Key-Board now!! Other that that your post was spot-on ( all over my monitor to) your bub, steve PS I paid cash for my house(20.000$ 14 years ago)and my kids are looooong grown -up HaHaaaa!

Bub Steve
09-27-2008, 02:18 AM
Mike and Steve, sorry if I came across as being combative; I was trying to show that the hobby isn't really any more expensive than it ever was.

I have always disliked unnecessary waste; I throw away very little, and buy as few packaged products as I can. Here we are in the most wasteful economy in the world, where the landfills are loading up faster than a politicians pocket, and we don't see the problem. In Europe, plastic or paper bags are a recent thing: they take their shopping bags and go to get the groceries. Some of the products are wrapped most are not. Can you hear the screaming if such a practice was mandated here? "It's unsanitary!!" Well, the fact is that we also live in a world that is too sanitary: disposable diapers? 2 showers a day? Then we complain about landfills hitting limits, and water shortages...

Recycling is 80 years too late. We should be digging out the landfills and recycling the tons of paper, plastic, glass, etc that went in there over the decades. Costs too much? Whose fault is that? We are gonna get bit at one end or the other, you choose.

As far as models are concerned, I seldom buy anything that I can have flying in a day. I see the hobby as a complete activity, learning what I can from every aspect of building and flying a model. I actually have bought a couple of foamies over the years, and was unimpressed: I would rather start with a plan and some balsa.

Anyhow, there is the rant of a (slightly demented?) 70-year-old, but that is the way I see the hobby, and the world, just as if you would be interested!!!
TLyttle:: Your a good Bub in anyones Book,, your bub,steve (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=18781)

TLyttle
09-27-2008, 03:06 AM
I hate to be on anyone's spitlist, but I have been around long enough to hold some unpopular opinions based on pure experience. Been up, been down, but I always paid attention, PARTICULARLY to objective views on any subject, including international finance and resource management...

Anyhow, I dug deeper into my archives, and found a copy of "Universal Model Airplane News", now MAN, from 1934. I cannot relate money from that era to today's value, likely x20 or more. Remember that engines were rare, radio gear still in the future.

Rubber kits, 12-20" span, anywhere from $.50 to $2.00
Plans, $.25
Brown Junior engine, $15
20" boat model, $3.50

And the magazine, complete with a full-size plan, was twenty cents...

Lieutenant Loughead
09-27-2008, 03:12 AM
If they economy is bad and nothing is selling well, why the %#$% is stuff so high???? In fact im thinking of NOT buying batteries now and buying cheaper stuff..... Voice your OPINION HERE and/or what are your plans.... Scott:mad::(:mad:Check out the definition of a "recession" on Wikipedia... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession)

Basicly, the deal is that inflation (the cost of goods) is increasing faster than paychecks can keep up. Inflation is increasing for various reasons (skyrocketing fuel prices, bank lending fiasco, housing market collapse, and the stock market tanking).

However, if you really look at the "root cause", you will see that the American people have lost faith in their government. We feel as if we spend all our money on gasoline, and other fuels; we don't believe banks are safe, because we see them collapsing every night on the evening news; we don't believe the stock market is safe, because we see it lose "points" every day, on a regular basis...

...so, everyone has started "hoarding" money -- we're not spending money the way we used to. This puts retailers in a predicament -- they must raise prices to make enough money to stay open. We see prices rise, so we don't spend our money -- it's a vicious cycle...

...but things WILL get better. :)

I didn't learn a whole lot in my economics class in college, but I do remember the professor saying, "recessions are a GOOD thing, because they keep depressions from happening."

Just remember that the pain we feel now is a GOOD thing. :o

gfdengine204
09-27-2008, 04:23 AM
So it's a good pain........

That hunger I feel when I can't afford dinner, it's a GOOD pain......

My legs are sore because I now have to walk 40miles to work since I can't afford gas, it's a GOOD pain.....

My wife not breathing well, because costs have cut into finances and we can't afford her asthma medication, it's a GOOD pain......



I'd just like the PAIN to stop.......

What I find a PAIN is the banks that fail, yet the upper management of those banks walk out with multimillion dollar severence packages. How gas prices rise, while oil falls, all because Hurricane Ike MIGHT cause a problem. The record profits by the oil companies while they continue to gouge the American consumer. And say what you will about global market, gas pricing is bull. The same gas, the same brand, at BP stations on the same route over a 20 mile span range 60 or more cents different? Bull. Absolute bull.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, though I have often wondered why if electricity, natural gas, and telephone are regulated by the ICC and must approach those bodies to ask when they wish to adjust their rates, why is the same not done for motor fuels? Tell them they can sell up to a certain price, and if they want a price increase, then it must be reviewed on it's merits by an independant commission.....

But then, what do I know.......

Saucerguy2
09-27-2008, 05:03 AM
I'm running a little experiement, and I'll share my findings with you guys here when they come in. I'm updating my price list at my site. I have placed these numbers well below even wholesale rates, it's just enough to make a meager profit, but that's it. I'm only able to get away with these numbers since I am cutting out the overhead, ie. I build from my home shop, no employees to have to pay, and I expect some volume to maximize my efforts. This is partially to run this experiement, and partially to drive home to a local operation that thinks they can hone in on what I do, to realize they need to move on, for they cannot compete with me no matter how hard they attempt to copy what I do.

Sooo... we'll see what happens when one decides to break from the system and go this route, I'll either be totally slammed, or people really are completely hording their cash and it doesn't matter what you do as a business, they simply will not budge.

Lieutenant Loughead
09-27-2008, 03:23 PM
Saucer Guy -- point us to your web site. I'd like to take a look. :)

gzsfrk
09-27-2008, 03:33 PM
Saucer Guy -- point us to your web site. I'd like to take a look. :)

NO!!! Don't do it! You might skew the results of his test. ;)

Bub Steve
09-27-2008, 05:54 PM
Wattfly'in Bubs:::Most my kids in Mullet Mauroders ( a RC youth club I started 13 years ago) are not just underprivileged but dirt-poor, One of the kids came by today, (a 13 year old who I carried to his home from the car when he was born), and told me their lights got turned off , his uncle and their kids moved in his two bed-room trailer with their family two months ago as they lost their house (rental) ,11 people in a two bedroom one bath with no lights , Last year I had their lights turned on when this happened, (400$ I knew full-well I'd never see again)I do it this time but my funds won't let me, Two of his cousins ( also Mullet Mauroders) are there as well, I think my bubs should thank their lucky stars they at least have something to eat ( I gave his Dad near 200$ to get some food last month) , These are hard work'in bub's who untill lately were able to get-by, pay bills, afford the kids to play sports in school & take them to games, Theres many more around here in the same boat, Most my bubs here would'nt want to walk a mile in their shoes, Most ya'll don't see real hard times, an I would'nt wish hard times on anyone! But just take a moment to thank the lucky stars that have keep ya'll from my young Bub's and their folks fate, I just had to get this out as it brings tears to my eyes just think'in about them, ya'ls good bub, steve

gzsfrk
09-27-2008, 06:07 PM
Too right, steve-bub.... Too right. :(

I grew up in an often financially strained situation (house payments behind, power occasionally cut off, cars repo'd, etc.), and it's an awful situation, especially for kids who have to deal not only with the inconveniences of not having some basic needed essentials, but also the strain they see it putting on their parents. It was reflecting on those times during my life that I became determined to do my level best to pursue an education and career that would minimize as much as possible the chance that I would have to put my own family through a similiar situation. I'm by no means immune to being laid off or having my home taken from me, but I thank God that He has blessed us to the extent that He has where we AREN'T constantly worried about not having place to live, food to eat, or clothes to wear, and in fact live very comfortably and can afford extravagances like imported RC plane parts.

God bless that family you mentioned, steve-bub, and all the others struggling during this time. Hopefully, and God willing, we won't see it get much worse before things start getting better.

Take care...

Bub Steve
09-27-2008, 07:14 PM
Thanks gzsfrk (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=19562), I sent two Blade heli's over there this morn'in to help keep the kids busy,( they charge on C batt's:ws:), My work has picked-up lately thank goodness, I was out for a while though, The economy tank'in hits those who have the least first and hardist,:{ all of us could be next, It won't matter how much $$$$ you have if it ain't worth anything:blah:,, bub, steve

aviatordave
09-29-2008, 03:22 AM
This is my opinion, you can object to it if you would like to

Yay or Nay....thats the best thing of being an American.

Angler-Hi
09-29-2008, 01:49 PM
So it's a good pain........

That hunger I feel when I can't afford dinner, it's a GOOD pain......

My legs are sore because I now have to walk 40miles to work since I can't afford gas, it's a GOOD pain.....

My wife not breathing well, because costs have cut into finances and we can't afford her asthma medication, it's a GOOD pain......



I'd just like the PAIN to stop.......

What I find a PAIN is the banks that fail, yet the upper management of those banks walk out with multimillion dollar severence packages. How gas prices rise, while oil falls, all because Hurricane Ike MIGHT cause a problem. The record profits by the oil companies while they continue to gouge the American consumer. And say what you will about global market, gas pricing is bull. The same gas, the same brand, at BP stations on the same route over a 20 mile span range 60 or more cents different? Bull. Absolute bull.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, though I have often wondered why if electricity, natural gas, and telephone are regulated by the ICC and must approach those bodies to ask when they wish to adjust their rates, why is the same not done for motor fuels? Tell them they can sell up to a certain price, and if they want a price increase, then it must be reviewed on it's merits by an independant commission.....

But then, what do I know.......

You tell em kev...I've got your back:p>

vax6335
09-29-2008, 02:32 PM
People may hate me for this, but I don't feel sorry for anyone that's being screwed by an ARM. I'm living in my first house that I bought 2 years ago, and I'm still paying the same exact mortgage as I was 2 years ago. All because I was smart enough to get a loan with a fixed rate. That's all everyone told me, "don't get an adjustable rate, you'll get screwed!"
I'm very lucky to have full time employment with the military, which gives me a steady income in times like these.

Lieutenant Loughead
09-29-2008, 02:55 PM
So it's a good pain........Yes

That hunger I feel when I can't afford dinner, it's a GOOD pain......Yeah, that's right. Let me ask you how many times (in the last week) you haven't been able to afford dinner... Are times REALLY that tough for you?

My legs are sore because I now have to walk 40miles to work since I can't afford gas, it's a GOOD pain.....Come on, Kev -- give me a break... Are you REALLY walking 40 miles to work, because you can't afford gas?

What would happen if the economy REALLY collapsed, and we experienced a FULL ECONOMIC DEPRESSION? THEN, you might have to walk 40 miles to work (if you were lucky enough to have a job). THAT's what I mean when I say this recession is GOOD for us.

My wife not breathing well, because costs have cut into finances and we can't afford her asthma medication, it's a GOOD pain......Is this REALLY true? Or are you just trying to make a point? If you REALLY can't afford medication, I know a guy who started a business selling Canadian drugs -- I can hook you up with him, if you need it...

However, I suspect you don't really need help -- you're just trying to make a point...

Yet, what would happen if we experienced a FULL ECONOMIC DEPRESSION? Do you think you could afford medication then? Do you think my friend's business would still be there for me to call, and hook you up with him?

I'm telling you guys -- this recession is easy. We'll get through it. It's really no big deal, when compared to a FULL ECONOMIC DEPRESSION.

Thanks gzsfrk (http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/member.php?u=19562), I sent two Blade heli's over there this morn'in to help keep the kids busyDude -- you are a very kind man! :D

This is my opinion, you can object to it if you would like toI do object, but I agree that it pisses me off. :)

People may hate me for this, but I don't feel sorry for anyone that's being screwed by an ARM. I'm living in my first house that I bought 2 years ago, and I'm still paying the same exact mortgage as I was 2 years ago. All because I was smart enough to get a loan with a fixed rate. That's all everyone told me, "don't get an adjustable rate, you'll get screwed!"I agree wholeheartedly. I'm living in my second house, and I've had a mortgage for the last 15 years -- my interest rate has been steady (though the mortage company likes to "play with the escrow numbers", and my mortgage payment fluxuates $30 or so per year)...

firemanbill
09-29-2008, 03:09 PM
I agree Andy, everyone, ok not everyone, but the majority of people in this country are always looking to blame someboby else for their woes.

It's not their fault they signed a note saying the rates could, and would, go up. It was the bankes fault that twisted their arm and made them sign the forms...:rolleyes:

Saucerguy2
09-29-2008, 10:33 PM
Update for you guys. I got a call by a guy that brokers for a few companies in China, he's strong at the concept of the lowest dollar, which is to be expected. It appears he want's 4 units, loaded up with equipment. I may not make as much with the main product, but I make that up with the equipment and of course, they are going to do this transaction per my terms.

This may turn out to be an interesting week, imagine that, an American manufacturing company building stuff for businesses in China, talk about a reverse in rolls.

gasser1933
09-30-2008, 02:46 AM
This explains how and why we are in this mess today.

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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NU6fuFrdCJY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>


If they economy is bad and nothing is selling well, why the %#$% is stuff so high???? In fact im thinking of NOT buying batteries now and buying cheaper stuff..... Voice your OPINION HERE and/or what are your plans.... Scott:mad::(:mad:

Lieutenant Loughead
09-30-2008, 02:45 PM
Ugh -- it was bound to happen... Now this is a discussion of POLITICS... :mad:

"He said..." "She said..." Whatever... :mad:

I do have a question though -- is the housing market collapse caused by low-income housing (1,000 square foot houses in bad neighborhoods), or "McMansions" (10,000 square foot houses in gated communities)? Or is it both?

Here's an interesting story:

I live in Tulsa, and visited Colorado Springs for a job interview, two and a half years ago... I was looking at houses, and was SHOCKED to see my house costs 2 to 3 times as much in Colorado Springs!!!

I asked the realtor why houses cost so much more in Colorado -- she said, "Because the Tulsa market hasn't caught up with us yet." :confused: What a load of hooey! :mad: Oklahoma shares a border with Colorado -- they're not that far away!!! Food, gas prices, and all other aspects of "cost of living" are nearly identical between Tulsa, and Colorado Springs!

I ended up not taking the job in Colorado -- and now I'm REALLY glad it worked out that way! :D

...by the way... The housing market in Tulsa has continued to GROW in the last two years. We seem to be in a bubble, completely unaffected by the housing market crash.

gfdengine204
09-30-2008, 03:15 PM
Yeah, that's right. Let me ask you how many times (in the last week) you haven't been able to afford dinner... Are times REALLY that tough for you?

Come on, Kev -- give me a break... Are you REALLY walking 40 miles to work, because you can't afford gas?

What would happen if the economy REALLY collapsed, and we experienced a FULL ECONOMIC DEPRESSION? THEN, you might have to walk 40 miles to work (if you were lucky enough to have a job). THAT's what I mean when I say this recession is GOOD for us.

Is this REALLY true? Or are you just trying to make a point? If you REALLY can't afford medication, I know a guy who started a business selling Canadian drugs -- I can hook you up with him, if you need it...

However, I suspect you don't really need help -- you're just trying to make a point...

Yet, what would happen if we experienced a FULL ECONOMIC DEPRESSION? Do you think you could afford medication then? Do you think my friend's business would still be there for me to call, and hook you up with him?

Yes, I was simply making points.....no it is not that bad, but I think I made my points. As for my job, well, as things get worse, my job security generally increases......;) As for dinner, ask me on Monday. :)

I agree Andy, everyone, ok not everyone, but the majority of people in this country are always looking to blame someboby else for their woes.

It's not their fault they signed a note saying the rates could, and would, go up. It was the bankes fault that twisted their arm and made them sign the forms...:rolleyes:

Bill,

I get exactly what you are saying and agree. Though I gotta tell ya, many lenders are "glossing" over details in that multi-page document people are signing to buy (or refi) home loans. And some folks are getting told things that just are not "ethical".....when you go to a mortgage broker, and they sing praises that "sure, your income is PERFECTLY fine to support this house payment", and people see it as a way to do some home improvment, or take a family vacation, or pay bills, by getting some cash out and refinancing, well, many folks are apt to trust the broker. After all, that broker does this for a living, s/he should know what I can afford, right?

Again, I agree 110% that we are responsible for what we sign for. All I am saying is this had become EXTREMELY EASY for folks to get in over their heads should they refi at payments they could afford, then have circumstances they never forsaw come up (gas prices, utilities, cut wages, loss of job, etc etc etc) arise.

firemanbill
09-30-2008, 03:22 PM
I agree with that too Kev, Who would have thunk our mortgage banks would turn into predatory lenders?

Still though, if you make less than $40k a year you should know, no matter what the banker tells you, that you cannot afford a $300k house!

gfdengine204
09-30-2008, 03:45 PM
I agree with that too Kev, Who would have thunk our mortgage banks would turn into predatory lenders?

Still though, if you make less than $40k a year you should know, no matter what the banker tells you, that you cannot afford a $300k house!

Oh, absolutely. But.....try as we might, you can't eradicate stupid......:rolleyes:

firemanbill
09-30-2008, 03:55 PM
yeah boy, You can't cure stupid...

that's the problem with the world... We have too many people "stuck on stupid"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVBY_SqzJtI&feature=related

TLyttle
09-30-2008, 05:24 PM
Man, my first house was going to eat 20% of my wages in mortgage payments, and I was nervous about that. My stepkid just bought a house that is costing her nearly 40% of her income, and I hate to burst her bubble by saying it will lead to catastrophe... What's an old dude to do?

gfdengine204
09-30-2008, 05:44 PM
Man, my first house was going to eat 20% of my wages in mortgage payments, and I was nervous about that. My stepkid just bought a house that is costing her nearly 40% of her income, and I hate to burst her bubble by saying it will lead to catastrophe... What's an old dude to do?

Be supportive and ready to lend a listening ear when she starts complaining about the costs. :)

(And maybe get the checkbook out too. ;))

Lieutenant Loughead
09-30-2008, 07:29 PM
To be fair:

When I bought my first house, I limited my Principal and Interest payments to $489 per month (which is exactly what we were paying in rent for our two bedroon apartment). That was a comfortable payment, but the house was not the nicest...

When I bought my second house, my payment was more than I thought I could afford... My aunt talked me into it with the following argument: "You are better off buying more house than you need, because your family will grow into it and you will continue to get raises every year -- yet your mortgage payment will remain the same for 30 years."

I've been in that second house for almost 10 years now, and she was right -- we've had our third child, and the monthly payment is very managable. :)

gfdengine204
09-30-2008, 07:38 PM
The only thing I would disagree with your aunt on is the annual raises. While that may be true for some, many in the current fiscal state of our country are finding annual raises are not the norm.

In fact, our last contract negotiations 4 years ago, we were required to begin chipping in to our (previously 100% state-paid) retirement system. However, the annual salary increase did not go up a similar amount. So in essence, we got a pay CUT. My wife is in a similar boat, where her employers do not give annual pay raises to any of their nurses or other staff.

When that happens, yet prices of everything else go up, sometimes it makes it kinda tight. Or worse.

At least, as my wife said last night, we have our pop-up camper for us to live in......(Me, wife, daughter, mother in law, 2 dobes, and all our stuff......LOL)

firemanbill
09-30-2008, 07:40 PM
The only thing I would disagree with your aunt on is the annual raises. While that may be true for some, many in the current fiscal state of our country are finding annual raises are not the norm.

In fact, our last contract negotiations 4 years ago, we were required to begin chipping in to our (previously 100% state-paid) retirement system. However, the annual salary increase did not go up a similar amount. So in essence, we got a pay CUT. My wife is in a similar boat, where her employers do not give annual pay raises to any of their nurses or other staff.

When that happens, yet prices of everything else go up, sometimes it makes it kinda tight. Or worse.

At least, as my wife said last night, we have our pop-up camper for us to live in......(Me, wife, daughter, mother in law, 2 dobes, and all our stuff......LOL)


That just goes to show you need a bigger camper!;-):Q

gfdengine204
09-30-2008, 07:47 PM
That just goes to show you need a bigger camper!;-):Q

Which would necessitate a larger tow vehicle.......











Unless you have one you want to donate? ;) :Q

firemanbill
09-30-2008, 07:54 PM
Which would necessitate a larger tow vehicle.......











Unless you have one you want to donate? ;) :Q

I am liking the one I have now! Think I'll hang on to it for a while.;-)

gfdengine204
09-30-2008, 08:03 PM
I am liking the one I have now! Think I'll hang on to it for a while.;-)

I figured as much......can't blame me for asking, though.

I was really hoping to trade my popup for a hybrid, but I don't see that happening for a while now.....:{

firemanbill
09-30-2008, 08:08 PM
I figured as much......can't blame me for asking, though.

I was really hoping to trade my popup for a hybrid, but I don't see that happening for a while now.....:{


ya think??? I think just the opposite! I just got a $24k book trailer for $14k! With the $1500 hitch!!!

Now is the time to buy an RV, a lot of them are getting dumped.

theecoop
09-30-2008, 08:16 PM
Not to change subject,but if either of you have questions on your Rv just ask ,Im an RV Certified Tech

gfdengine204
09-30-2008, 08:17 PM
ya think??? I think just the opposite! I just got a $24k book trailer for $14k! With the $1500 hitch!!!

Now is the time to buy an RV, a lot of them are getting dumped.

Very true.....you DID get a great deal!

Not to change subject,but if either of you have questions on your Rv just ask ,Im an RV Certified Tech

Dang coop, that IS good to know......I may just have to pick your brain.....

ministeve2003
09-30-2008, 08:20 PM
Not to change subject,but if either of you have questions on your Rv just ask ,Im an RV Certified Tech

Whats the Plug thingiess That hang on the thing-a-ma-jig.... Just teasing.... LOL
SK

theecoop
09-30-2008, 08:37 PM
thats the do-hicky- that cames with the thing-a-ma-bob...rofl

firemanbill
09-30-2008, 08:39 PM
Not to change subject,but if either of you have questions on your Rv just ask ,Im an RV Certified Tech


I do remember us talking about that before. Good to know there is a "go to" source among us!:D

theecoop
09-30-2008, 08:43 PM
Just try to help someone when I can.

Lieutenant Loughead
09-30-2008, 10:42 PM
All you really NEED is a hatchback to go "car camping" in... You guys are SPOILED! :rolleyes:

gzsfrk
09-30-2008, 10:50 PM
All you really NEED is a hatchback to go "car camping" in... You guys are SPOILED! :rolleyes:

And all you need to fly a "model airplane" is a piece of paper to fold and your mouth to make the whooshing noises. What's your point? ;)

TLyttle
10-01-2008, 02:45 AM
Get outta town. Once I moved to the country and found a simple way to make a living, I became way too comfortable and will live a long time.

Remember, even if you DO win the rat race, you are still a rat...

As far as cheap models are concerned, there are too many options, white glue and meat tray foam, all the stuff being thrown out every day, all around you. I have gotten 10-minute flights from a foam "Zanonia seed" freeflight; just as satisfying as any 4-channel Super Zoomie!

Saucerguy2
10-09-2008, 08:03 AM
Ok, now things are reaaally moving forward, my expectations to make up for the lower profits on the actual product has resulted in more interested in adding onto these orders, via. the equipment and adding more within these orders with what is built in house here regardless.

It's turning out to be rather interesting, literally at least within my circle of client base, they are hurting financially, and these discounts are appreciated by them. What this is doing is increasing customer loyalty, it's getting the word out in my industries that I am one of the good guys, standing defyantly in the face of our present economy. It's still an uphill battle with some of them, for they only want cheap and that is all they ever will want and there are certain standards I refuse to compromise along. This is cool since I can drop those accounts once things are swinging at full speed again and use them as portfolio builders.

The additional strategy of increased diversification also has proven itself big time. I'm now taking an even harder look at what I have under my belt skill wise, what I have currently with physical resources, and the options are becoming exponential, the only thing that really needs to happen next is only getting the word out to the local community, so looks like more beating the street on that one.

aviatordave
10-09-2008, 02:25 PM
they are hurting financially, and these discounts are appreciated by them.

Did people stop drinking coffee?

gfdengine204
10-09-2008, 03:31 PM
What does coffee have to do with RC airplanes?

firemanbill
10-09-2008, 04:02 PM
I drink coffee while I fly... But not any of that $7 a cup froo froo coffee!:Q

gfdengine204
10-09-2008, 04:04 PM
I don't drink coffee at all.....that stuff will stunt yer growth!

Iced tea, yes. Icky coffee, no! In fact, the first night of my first month of midnight shifts, I was told by then end of that 4 weeks, I would be a coffee drinker. I replied as long as there was Mountain Dew being made, I wouldn't need coffee for my caffeine fix. :)

Lieutenant Loughead
10-09-2008, 04:47 PM
Saucerguy's business is making... well, I don't know exactly what you call them...

...they're like the "kiosks" you'd see at the mall. I think his are mainly for coffee businesses, but he'd probably be happy to make you one for just about any reason... :D

gfdengine204
10-09-2008, 05:18 PM
Saucerguy's business is making... well, I don't know exactly what you call them...

...they're like the "kiosks" you'd see at the mall. I think his are mainly for coffee businesses, but he'd probably be happy to make you one for just about any reason... :D

If it dispensed free iced tea, I'd be all over it.

Lieutenant Loughead
10-09-2008, 05:29 PM
...or a big glass of warm fat... :blah: :D

Hey Kev -- obviously, I'm back home... I ate pizza every day I was in Chicago, and your pizza joint WAS the best. :)

Is there more than one location? We're planning a trip to Chicago for the whole family (economy is not THAT bad), but we plan to stay in the downtown area...

...also, do they ship to Oklahoma? :D

gfdengine204
10-09-2008, 05:31 PM
...or a big glass of warm fat... :blah: :D

Hey Kev -- obviously, I'm back home... I ate pizza every day I was in Chicago, and your pizza joint WAS the best. :)

Glad you enjoyed that.....the leftovers were yummy as well, thank you. :)

And I believe you are referring to "The Head of Alfredo Garcia, and a hot cup of fat!"

Lieutenant Loughead
10-09-2008, 05:33 PM
And I believe you are referring to "The Head of Alfredo Garcia, and a hot cup of fat!"Yes -- that's the one... :eek:

max-nix
10-09-2008, 06:35 PM
The "Federal Reserve Bank" is not a federal agency.
It is a privately owned bank.
It is owned by foreigners. (banksters)
It creates money by the stroke of a pen.
It charges us for the principle & interest.
The paper "dollar" is not backed by anything but peoples confidence. (fiat Currency)
The dollar was originally backed by precious metal as our Constitution required.
This is why the dollar was as "good as gold".
The dice are loaded & eventually the banksters end up with all the marbles and we are naked in the street.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/200207paul.htm
The dollar today is only worth four cents compared to the 1913 dollar.:eek:
The "Fed" was established in 1913.;)
Check it out.:sad:

Saucerguy2
10-09-2008, 08:16 PM
Actually, I stopped catering to only coffee people years ago, sure I still have a strong line that supports it, but it's general food and beverage these days. It rounds things out, especially for those that do not drink coffee.

How they are hurting, their supplies cost more, their lease rates are higher, they still have to make the same payroll even though they have less patrons, also, the trend with a sour economy always translates to people cutting out amenities they can do without and making your coffee, or cooking your food at home is the logical choice to save you money.

Lieutenant Loughead
10-09-2008, 11:57 PM
Yeah, but coffee costs about $0.03 to make, and they charge $5 for it... :rolleyes:

I have no compassion for coffee sellers... :D

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 12:22 AM
Coffee is icky.

firemanbill
10-10-2008, 12:24 AM
I don't drink coffee at all.....that stuff will stunt yer growth!

Iced tea, yes. Icky coffee, no! In fact, the first night of my first month of midnight shifts, I was told by then end of that 4 weeks, I would be a coffee drinker. I replied as long as there was Mountain Dew being made, I wouldn't need coffee for my caffeine fix. :)

Coffee is icky.

I think we get it... you don't like coffee:rolleyes:

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 12:31 AM
In case I wasn't clear Bill.......

COFFEE IS ICKY!


And, back on topic......HOW ABOUT THAT WALL STREET today?!?!?!?!?!

firemanbill
10-10-2008, 12:58 AM
Just about as good as the Cubbies Huh???;-):Q

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 01:10 AM
Just about as good as the Cubbies Huh???;-):Q

I tell ya, that was a huge disappointment.....

In fact, Walmart is removing all Cubs merchandise due to the choking hazard.

Mike Parsons
10-10-2008, 01:35 AM
In fact, Walmart is removing all Cubs merchandise due to the choking hazard.
That right there is funny..I don't care who you are. LOL

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 01:44 AM
Hope it helped, Mike. :)

aviatordave
10-10-2008, 01:55 AM
And, back on topic......HOW ABOUT THAT WALL STREET today?!?!?!?!?!


Ya.. I lost several more thousand in my 401k

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 01:56 AM
Well, tomorrow will not be the day to seek bargains......

The time to look for bargains on The Street wont be til next week at the earliest, and that is an EXTREMELY OPTIMISTIC guess......

firemanbill
10-10-2008, 02:00 AM
Ya.. I lost several more thousand in my 401k


You and me both Brother... Set my retirement date back a few years again today!:mad::(

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 02:02 AM
I've lost 30% from one of my retirement accounts since September 7......:eek::mad::blah:

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 02:06 AM
I was discussing this at work today......if the Government wants to help with a "rescue plan" or "bail out" or what-have-you, well, here is my suggestion:

As part of the $700B Rescue Initiative, part of the agreement should be for mortgage lenders to be required to restructure the home loans commensurate to the current value of the home. Since the lenders were at the very least complicit in the falsification of the inflated property values, then they should absorb the damage, not the homeowners.

Now don't get me wrong.....if you signed on the dotted line, you should know what you are getting into. But it seems to me that there was a lot of shenanigans that should NOT have been happening unawares to the public.

TLyttle
10-10-2008, 02:40 AM
Apparently the Europeans are mad as hell over the US planning, 'cuz it drags them down as well. The "inventor" of capitalism said, "Capitalism's greatest danger is greed and the immoral pursuit of wealth with no conscience.", so he predicted the failure of this system by understanding human nature. Now that the CEOs of the major villains in this piece are STILL going to get their performance bonuses (!!!), one should be able to see that the whole system is foolish...

Saucerguy2
10-10-2008, 05:06 AM
Guys, I wasn't being off topic, I was giving insight into how this is affecting business and seeing that I own one, I'm able to relay what else is going on in that world, afterall, that is what the entire economy is in the first place, it's all business.

I'm seeing a lot of places going out of business, this is really bad, but it does have a bright side, it weeds out the men from the boys, and not in a way you guys might think. It's not so much the little guy that's getting hit, when a giant corporation falls, it ripples the economy greatly. What I'm seeing now happening in big biz is ineffective grasping at straws, not being able to evolve as quickly as the smaller operations.

I'm winging it along what my schedule will entail each day. A sluggish mega conglom would never be able to do it.

I heard someone mention that Reagon's trickle down policy is what started the ball rolling to the state we are at now. That if it was a trickle up policy, things would be fixed in short order. It makes sense since people would now have more money to spend, which in turn does nothing but benefit business and the economy is fixed.

Twmaster
10-10-2008, 05:17 AM
I was discussing this at work today......if the Government wants to help with a "rescue plan" or "bail out" or what-have-you, well, here is my suggestion:

As part of the $700B Rescue Initiative, part of the agreement should be for mortgage lenders to be required to restructure the home loans commensurate to the current value of the home. Since the lenders were at the very least complicit in the falsification of the inflated property values, then they should absorb the damage, not the homeowners.

The problem with this idea is that many of the banks that hold mortgages did not originate them and therefore are not the greedy/crooked so-n-so's that originated the loans.

For example, the mortgage on my home has been bought twice. Should JP Morgan Chase (the current holder of my mortgage) be responsible? they had no complicity in selling me stinky mortgage.

Now don't get me wrong.....if you signed on the dotted line, you should know what you are getting into. But it seems to me that there was a lot of shenanigans that should NOT have been happening unawares to the public.

There were. I got suckered into a stinky loan on my house. My fault for the most part. Although I am sure there are many loans out there where originators outright lied to borrowers.

Saucerguy2
10-10-2008, 07:11 AM
The problem with this idea is that many of the banks that hold mortgages did not originate them and therefore are not the greedy/crooked so-n-so's that originated the loans.

For example, the mortgage on my home has been bought twice. Should JP Morgan Chase (the current holder of my mortgage) be responsible? they had no complicity in selling me stinky mortgage.


Yeah, but JP was never left in the dark at all, they knew full well what happpened, they had all of the data and knew the risks up front. These guys don't blindly do what they do upon faith. If you pick up any account regardless of origin, you will make absolutely sure of all of the details and risks involved.

If it turns out these guys were some how able to run deals with the selling party able to not disclose this information, then that's another story and a whole new can of worms and there should be hell to pay on the transgressors.

Twmaster
10-10-2008, 07:30 AM
Yeah, but JP was never left in the dark at all, they knew full well what happpened, they had all of the data and knew the risks up front. These guys don't blindly do what they do upon faith. If you pick up any account regardless of origin, you will make absolutely sure of all of the details and risks involved.

Dude, I have no idea who you think you are but that is total BS. Do you think for one minute Chase looked over -every- loan it bought in a package of thousands of loans? If you believe that then you are delusional. Nobody has that kind of manpower for that amount of oversight. If they had be practicing due diligence then the financial crisis were are experiencing fueled by the mortgage crisis would never have happened.

If it turns out these guys were some how able to run deals with the selling party able to not disclose this information, then that's another story and a whole new can of worms and there should be hell to pay on the transgressors.

That is so absurd I am not even going to reply.

Saucerguy2
10-10-2008, 07:37 AM
Again, referencing the fact, I own a business (I deal with many, many other businesses just to take care of biz all day long, big and small alike). I stand strongly with what I said. I'm in that loop and am trying to share insight, if you want me to opt out, by all means, tell me, I was only honestly trying to contribute here to give people insight into what is going on.

I really have to add, I absolutely was not trying to be confrontational at all, just informative. ANd final edit here, if feathers are ruffled here, I apolgize, they were not intended, I thought we had a positive dialog going on, i want that to continue.

Lieutenant Loughead
10-10-2008, 02:52 PM
Well, this morning, I'm having a $5.21 frozen coffee, with caramel and a shot of expresso. It's yummy, and I'm full-on AWAKE! :D



As for the homeowner/mortgage thing... I'm embarassed to say that I really don't understand any of it at all... Here's what I think I know:

Individuals wanted to buy homes they couldn't afford.
Banks issued them a line of credit, so that the individuals could afford the homes they wanted.
The individuals signed the mortgage, and became homeowners.
The value of the homes they purchased suddenly fell, and those homeowners decided NOT to continue to make "relatively huge" payments on an "relatively inexpensive" home. That's a CHOICE they made -- my mother made the same choice in the 80's. It's really no big deal.
The banks reposessed the homes -- the homeowner lost the home they couldn't afford (and knew it in the first place), and the bank has money tied up in real estate property (which can be sold, for a bit of a loss, but I'm sure the bank will still come out ahead on the deal).
So, what I don't get is, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?! :confused:

I looked at overpriced houses in Colorado Springs, and knew I couldn't afford them -- so I didn't buy one! DUH! :rolleyes:

So, now, the government is going to "bail out" the mortgage mess... Who are they bailing out? The homeowners who KNEW they couldn't afford the house in the first place? The bank, that KNEW the homeowner couldn't afford the house in the first place? WTF?!

So, if I understand this correctly, I made the educated, moral choice, and I got burned for it. Again --> WTF?!

In my humble opinion, if the government is going to do anything, it should offer ALL HOMEOWNERS the chance to refinance their home at a lower interest rate -- NOT just the homeowners who overextended themselves. THOSE "overextended" homeowners can move into a smaller home (one they can afford), just like the rest of us. :mad:

Please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood any of the "mortgage crisis" issues... :o

firemanbill
10-10-2008, 02:57 PM
I think it is a bit different than that LL, not much though.

Where the mortgage mess comes in is the folks who got these low introductroy rate variable interest mortgages. They could afford them fine the first three years then the rates jump and payments doubled and even tripled in some cases. I think for most it is not a matter of not wanting pay but rather not being able to pay.

Then this is where the problem comes in with the depriciated values... They cannot afford the payments and cannot sell the home for enough to pay it off thus leaving them in the quandry of having to bail on the mortage.

Uscrupulous loans to people who didn't want to believe that they couldn't afford a house.

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 03:20 PM
I think another part of the problem is people bought or refinanced homes, and based the payments on their situation at the time, which may have looked peachy keen. Me and my wife are a perfect example. We got a home loan we can afford.

Then my wife has to change jobs when she finds out she is working for a home health agency that is breaking numerous laws, putting her nursing license in jeopardy. She finds new employment, but it is a slight pay decrease. Not a big deal, we can absorb it.

Then gas prices start climbing like a Saturn V rocket. As gas prices increase, so does the price of everything tied to gas/diesel. Things start getting more expensive. Some things need to be cut back on. As gas stays expensive, it makes it easy to decide not to go camping; we'll just stay home and do stuff around here.

I'm using us as an example to show how regular folks can easily get caught in a tight situation.

Take our situation, and couple it with someone who loses their job. Or has their salary cut. Or loses healthcare benefits and needs to pay more for doctor visits or prescriptions.

You go to try and sell your house, and find something more affordable; unfortunately, the housing bubble has burst, and your property value is a third of what it was. You are upside-down in your loan, and the best you can hope for is to short-sell your house. But then, you have no equity to use for a down payment for something else. Couple that with the reluctance for banks to issue home loans. You need PERFECT credit to get a loan (or at least an afforadable loan), but if you have been having problems making other payments, well, you can't count on that.

And then you see stories of people who commit suicide due to their financial crisis. Or worse.........

All because a small percentage of people saw an opportunity to create a fairytale for thousands of homeowners/buyers, telling them how they can buy/refi up to 100% (or sometimes even more) and use that money for renovations, vacations, toys, what have you. Painting a cheery, rosy picture. And while they sold all these loans, they made money hand over fist, with you regard for what might happen.

It's not a simple situation. I didn't pretend my suggestion above is a simple fix. It is going to take a while to get back on our feet. I have confidence we will, but it isn't gonna happen overnight.

firemanbill
10-10-2008, 03:27 PM
What you say is true Kev, But I do feel that what caused the rise in values was the sub prime loan lending frenzy. That made the value of the homes skyrocket which also made the need for more subprime loanns so the people who could not afford homes could still get them which caused the prices to go up which caused the need for more subprime loans which....

well you get the picture.

Good folks like you and the Misses got caught up in the whirlwind of crap that the unscrupulous lenders and banking industry caused.

And you are right, there is no easy fix. Heck there probably isn't a fix at all..

it is what it is and it ain't no more. The party is over.

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 03:32 PM
Yup.......




Last one out, turn off the lights.....

Lieutenant Loughead
10-10-2008, 03:39 PM
Okay -- well, as I said before, my mother was faced with "the quandry of having to bail on their (her) mortage" in the 80's... It wasn't a difficult decision -- she bought a condo for $100,000, and about a year later, the same condos (in the same "homeowner's association") were selling for $50,000...

She was instantly upside down. She told the bank she couldn't continue to make $100,000 payments on a $50,000 condo -- she told the bank they must do something, or she would walk away from the condo, and let the bank take it back (and it would be the bank's problem).

The bank said they wouldn't help her, so my mother walked away from the mortgage (and the condo). It wasn't too terribly of a difficult decision. We bought another house, and moved on with our lives.

Again -- why is this such a huge deal? :confused:

Kev -- the fuel prices soaring deal is affecting EVERYONE. I believe the Wall Street issue is caused by fuel prices, and SECONDAIRLY by the "home crisis"... The bottom line is that everyone feels the sky is falling (a-la chicken little). Chicken little was wrong. :rolleyes:

firemanbill
10-10-2008, 03:45 PM
Again -- why is this such a huge deal? :confused:

I think you just answered your own question...

gfdengine204
10-10-2008, 04:00 PM
Yep, Chicken Little WAS wrong.....

My point wasn't laying blame re: fuel prices, but more that many folks budget for what they think they can afford, based of COLA and pay increases. When other factors (i.e. INCREDIBLE and UNPRECEDENTED fuel price increases, unforeseen food price increases, etc) throw those numbers out of whack, folks that were living "comfortably" suddenly find a new definition for comfort. That's all I was saying.

Heck.....not too long ago, everyone that does my job had a Job Title Reclassification de to new radio equipment we were transitioning to. The new class included a pay increase; we were told it was quite hefty. Come to find out, we were essentially lied to, and the $500-700/month increase we were "promised" was actually closer to $200. Before taxes. So coworkers that planned things like remodels on their homes under the expectation of that were thrown into a trick bag. Not exactly the same situation, but I think you guys understand what I am trying to say.

firemanbill
10-10-2008, 04:05 PM
yeah, don't count your chickens before they hatch... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush...:D

Lieutenant Loughead
10-10-2008, 04:09 PM
Exactly -- which brings me to what I was saying before...

If you make a bad decision, you must live with it. You learn from it, vow to never make the same mistake again, and move on...

...but don't drag the rest of the nation (and world) down with you... :mad:

max-nix
10-10-2008, 04:10 PM
If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.":blah:
-----President, Thomas Jefferson


"People occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves, up brush themselves off, and hurry on as if nothing has happened". :{
-----Sir Winston Churchill

ministeve2003
10-10-2008, 04:52 PM
I second the Coffee is Icky...LOL

Ps, a buddy of mine owns (2) 711 stores, he said sales are up in his stores but down everywhere else...including down in his sisters stores... Plus, He said he sales about 3,000-5,000 cups of coffee a week... I'm thinking coffee is a good Investment...LOL

SK

Lieutenant Loughead
10-10-2008, 05:07 PM
Plus, He said he sales about 3,000-5,000 cups of coffee a week... I'm thinking coffee is a good Investment...LOL

Well, this morning, I'm having a $5.21 frozen coffee, with caramel and a shot of expresso. It's yummy, and I'm full-on AWAKE! :D

Yeah, but coffee costs about $0.03 to make, and they charge $5 for it... :rolleyes:I agree -- making and selling coffee is a great investment. :mad:

Biplane Murphy
10-10-2008, 08:04 PM
My Gal is a Realtor, so I get to see a lot about the ins and outs of the housing market.

apparently.......

People took out loans at a temporary fixed rate....when the fixed rate time lapsed, the variable interest rates went through the roof....

Those same people had banked on the idea that they could refinance when the fixed rate period was up......
However, the value of their homes was now less than they owed due to falling property values.
So......no refinance option, and payments that were too high for their income.

The banks apparently insure themselves against mortgage defaults, and losses with companies such as AIG.
So the when people "Walk away from the houses", the insured bank doesn't lose money.
The insurance companies get the loss passed to them.

Well, the situation has gotten to the point that so many people have "Walked away" and the insurance companes can no longer absorb the losses....Therefore they go bankrupt.
If the insurance company can't pay, then the bank goes down too.

The Government is trying to prevent meltdown of the whole darn system by bailing out those failed companies.....Some banks and some Insurance companies.

Obviously there are many more factors at work in the "Meltdown"...... these are just a couple of them.:(


On the lighter side of things, if you make good money, and are looking for a house.......You can get sweet deals on way nicer houses than was possible just a couple years ago...
Bank owned homes are being sold for as low as 56% of current market value. More often purchasing a home for 75% of the appraisal is happening, but I did see a bank accept 56% a couple weeks ago.

So...........investors and people who are finally ready to buy are making out like bandits in the current housing market.

Lieutenant Loughead
10-10-2008, 10:15 PM
...and that's the way things SHOULD be. The idiots who took a chance on an adjustable rate mortgage, lose their home (for good reason).

The bank sells their house for 60% to 75%, which means the bank recouperates their loss. (This assumes that these homes have between 25% and 40% equity -- my home currently has about 63.6% equity, so I would imagine that 25% to 40% equity isn't unheard of.)

The people who were forced out of their home can rent a home, or buy a home at 60% to 75% of what they paid before.

Again -- what's the problem? :confused:

Biplane Murphy
10-10-2008, 11:01 PM
...and that's the way things SHOULD be. The idiots who took a chance on an adjustable rate mortgage, lose their home (for good reason).

The bank sells their house for 60% to 75%, which means the bank recouperates their loss. (This assumes that these homes have between 25% and 40% equity -- my home currently has about 63.6% equity, so I would imagine that 25% to 40% equity isn't unheard of.)

The people who were forced out of their home can rent a home, or buy a home at 60% to 75% of what they paid before.

Again -- what's the problem? :confused:

Some people do have some equity in their homes. Those people do have the chance to refinance or sell instead of just walking away from the house.

However, a lot of people bought when the market was at a high, and they have no equity at all, and in fact owe a lot more than the current value of their homes. Therefore, refinancing is not an option.

Doing a "Short Sale" is sometimes doable, if the bank agrees...That is where the bank agrees to let the homeowner sell the house for less than they owe......sometimes as low as 56% of the debt....and forgives the remaining balance....those sales are hard to achieve, and the banks take their sweet time approving them....but it is not unheard of....
The good part of that is the family is able to get out without experiencing foreclosure, and can move on to a new place that they may be able to afford.

Here is where the problems really occur......Someone who owes $300,000 walks away from a house worth $200,000......The Bank sells it for $175,000 and then the insurance company pays out the difference of $125,000.

The insurance company takes the loss of $125,000, not the people or the bank.
Now multiply that by the hundreds of thousands of families "Walking Away" all over the country....
Those losses then become unsustainable by the insurance companies, and they go bankrupt.......A perfect example would be AIG....

firemanbill
10-10-2008, 11:34 PM
and there is the other rub concerning the sub-prime lending frenzy. No down payments!!! 100% financing including closing costs.

My first home 20 years ago required a considerable down payment on my part (and mine and my wifes parents too) even with my VA eligibility in order to qualify I put a total of about 15% down on a $60k home. When we had to sell due to moving (gotta love the military life) we had money to put into our next home.

No after all these years I have a LOT of equity in my current home, even with the down turn in the market I could sell it and walk away with a big pot of money. That wouldn't happen if I bought it 3 or 4 years ago with no money down!

Biplane Murphy
10-11-2008, 12:04 AM
and there is the other rub concerning the sub-prime lending frenzy. No down payments!!! 100% financing including closing costs.

My first home 20 years ago required a considerable down payment on my part (and mine and my wifes parents too) even with my VA eligibility in order to qualify I put a total of about 15% down on a $60k home. When we had to sell due to moving (gotta love the military life) we had money to put into our next home.

No after all these years I have a LOT of equity in my current home, even with the down turn in the market I could sell it and walk away with a big pot of money. That wouldn't happen if I bought it 3 or 4 years ago with no money down!

Exactly!!....;-)

Even the VA loans nowadays can be had with no downpayment, and closing costs included in the final price.
Then there are a couple other loan types to be had with no down as well.

And you are right......a lot of "buyers" are asking for the seller to pay the closing costs by including it in the price of the home....
Quite an interesting housing market right now, but from what I have seen, it will likely turn around sooner rather than later.....Hopefully.:rolleyes:

aviatordave
10-11-2008, 01:35 PM
Anyone think the stock market has bottomed out yet? Some of my friends are dumping money in the S&P now.

firemanbill
10-11-2008, 01:38 PM
I think it is getting pretty close if not already there Dave. It was up and down like crazy yesterday which indicates to me a lot of people had started buying again. It ended up down but not as bad as it started out by a longshot.

I saw two or three "experts" on the news yesterday saying they thought it had just about bottomed out too.

I increased my contribution level to my plan yesterday.

gfdengine204
10-11-2008, 02:31 PM
By the way that it shot 700 down, then was 250 up later, it looks to me like a bottom, or very close to one. Of course, any stupidity could drive it even lower.

On the radio, they said floor traders were referring to this as a crash in slow motion. Hopefully, we are seeing the end of the carnage.

Bub Steve
10-11-2008, 05:33 PM
Anyone think the stock market has bottomed out yet? Some of my friends are dumping money in the S&P now.

KornieBub::Stock tip--- Korn Futures:cool:!!!!!---HaHaaa,( mums the word, we don't want to start a run) Bub anonymous

Lieutenant Loughead
10-11-2008, 11:52 PM
I increased my contribution level to my plan yesterday.That is an EXCELLENT idea... I wonder if I can do the same at my company, for my 401k... Hmmmm...

Saucerguy2
10-12-2008, 10:39 PM
This is a good read for those of us that think we have it bad, honestly, we don't in comparison to any degree: http://www.yesnet.yk.ca/schools/projects/canadianhistory/depression/depression.html