PDA

View Full Version : scratch build siemens-schuckert D.III dimescale XPS foam...


dcwwcp
12-05-2009, 10:54 PM
here's the thread I started at RCG. not alot of interest over there, thought I would see about here



http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13748289#post13748289

Bub Steve
12-05-2009, 10:59 PM
What a great mix of build'in Materials you put in her,, Great work my bub! steve

degreen60
12-06-2009, 02:08 AM
I saw you do not have guns. I make my guns by printing them on paper then glueing on foam. I either glue the cooling clyinder on a straw or roll about three layers of paper coated with white glue into a cylinger. If you would like to try it I can email you the file. I have Spandua, Hotchkiss, Maxim, Lewis, and Vickers.

dcwwcp
12-06-2009, 02:37 AM
hey thanks, I've read alot of your posts. yes thank you, I would like to try that. I definitely have to try and keep it light. the straw sounds like a great idea. [email protected]

I wish I could decide which marking I want to go with. I like the swiss markings, but everything I see shows a lozenge pattern that I don't much like.

the LT. Greven markings I like alot. heck I like Bechardt's plane but I'm not much for the swastika.

thank you very much for the input.

floss
12-07-2009, 07:59 AM
dcwwsp
Cool project, I started one very similar using the Fiddlersgreen paper model plan for the SS DIII. I scrapped it after building the fuselage due to the fact that the wings are so small, thought it best to build something with a bit more wing area. RC groups can be a hard slog when it comes to finding people interested in your specific project. It may be scale but if its not covered balsa it won't attract much interest.

Looks great so far, keep those pics coming please.

Steve

7car7
12-07-2009, 03:35 PM
I can relate with the RCG issue.

I'd suggest you post those pics here.

It's a very cool plane. Very unique. I have a WWI planes 3 view book at home, and I've really enjoyed reading up on this one. Nice to see someone model it. It seems the one surviving example is a long wing type, made for high altitude flight.

Really looking forward to more progress. I've thought about doing this fuse method myself, looks cool. I've done a lot of model boats like that when I was younger. (but with wood.)

degreen60
12-07-2009, 04:13 PM
dcwwsp
Cool project, I started one very similar using the Fiddlersgreen paper model plan for the SS DIII. I scrapped it after building the fuselage due to the fact that the wings are so small, thought it best to build something with a bit more wing area. RC groups can be a hard slog when it comes to finding people interested in your specific project. It may be scale but if its not covered balsa it won't attract much interest.

Looks great so far, keep those pics coming please.

Steve

You could have made the wings larger. On the Bristol M1C I am making the wings about 5 inches longer than scale.

degreen60
12-07-2009, 04:20 PM
I can relate with the RCG issue.

I'd suggest you post those pics here.



Watch out posting here, you might just get hooked like the rest of us junkies and have to attend the meeting here with us. I don't think the meetings are working for me, I just keep building and dreaming of my next build of a WW1 plane. Lets see, I have in my scrap box for rebuild a Loening M8, Nieuport 28, and a Fokker DVII. Maybe this will keep me from looking for a supplier of more WW1 planes to feed my habit.

floss
12-08-2009, 07:33 AM
You could have made the wings larger. On the Bristol M1C I am making the wings about 5 inches longer than scale.

Yeah, good point.

Interesting fact about the SS DIV, the wings on one side were longer then the other to help counter the rotational torque of that whopping great rotary.

I have the Fiddlersgreen DIII PDF if anyone wants to give it a go.

SW

degreen60
12-08-2009, 04:47 PM
Interesting fact about the SS DIV, the wings on one side were longer then the other to help counter the rotational torque of that whopping great rotary.
SW

I read somewhere that the Fokker DVII had longer wing on one side too for same reason and it only had to fight the torque of the prop.

dcwwcp
12-09-2009, 12:52 AM
wow, hey thanks for the input guys. I'm totally afflicted with the disease of SSW DIII & IV obsession. not to mention WWI era planes in general. I've read several threads here and I consantly check in at Allan flowers's thread of the beautiful DIII he is making.

foam is my interest because the construction is differnt and different things are possible. I like the durability also.

I've been going crazy modifying a 1/9 lozenge pattern to "approximate" it to my 1/20 scale plane. then add the rib tape with a paint program on the computer. problem is, I'm lousy with the computer.

I planned on printing it on tissue and glue it to the wings.
I imagine decal paper would be lighter, but ridiculously expensive compared to tissue and I guestimated the tissue to be at around .8 grams after it's been inked.

don't know what glue to use though. if anybody has suggestion it would be greatly appreciated.

I think I need to quit wasting time on the lozenge pattern right now and concentrate on building the plane.

i have an "idea" to attach the top wing with plastic tabs and litle CF pins so that it can be removed, and make a removable hatch of the top of the fuselage from the cowl back to the pilot. this way I can get in it and fix it when I try to dig a hole in the ground with it.

then I can make a D.IV wing to try on it also. won't have the extra length on the port side like the D.IV but I feel it will give me an idea which model I want to make when I attempt a 30" wingspan version.

as I said before I'm in way over my head, and would happily take any advice.

more pics will be up tonight, and I'll post them here;)

thank you all.
~don

TM4197
12-09-2009, 01:58 AM
DC

Not sure what appeals to me about this color and markings, but you might like this one..has the Cross instead.

degreen60
12-09-2009, 02:39 AM
I've been going crazy modifying a 1/9 lozenge pattern to "approximate" it to my 1/20 scale plane. then add the rib tape with a paint program on the computer. problem is, I'm lousy with the computer.

I planned on printing it on tissue and glue it to the wings.
I imagine decal paper would be lighter, but ridiculously expensive compared to tissue and I guestimated the tissue to be at around .8 grams after it's been inked.

don't know what glue to use though. if anybody has suggestion it would be greatly appreciated.



Here is a picture of my MS-I. The large numbers on the fuselage are printed on tissue paper taped to a sheet of copier paper. It is "glued" on with WBP. The tissue that was not printed on disappears when the WPB dries. Have to be careful or the inkjet print will run. The rudder is printed on copier paper, sprayed with crystal clear Krylon to make waterproof, and glued on with pink stick glue. I printed the roundles on my photo printer cause it is water proof and they are glued on with pink stick glue.

If you are gluing a large area then use 3M Super 77 spray.

I now use sticker paper from Staples(30 sheets for about $12) for large areas so I don't have to use the spray glue.

dbcisco
12-09-2009, 05:01 AM
That MS-I looks sweet Degreen.

dcwwcp
12-09-2009, 05:11 AM
good stuff to know. sorry, but what is WBP? and what is pink stick glue?
excuse my ignorance, I'm still very new to this. sticker paper huh? sounds like I should have thought of that. great idea. how much does it weigh?

pics of the lozenge I want to use and a few of the parts so far-
mocked up the parts to see how it will look. not bad. still kinda rough, but not bad.
the lower wing has been built. used the back section of a pair of BSD micro wings glued together and shaped. gives a thinner cross-section and much lower weight. 2.6g before the CF spar which I felt to be very necessary. came in at 3.4g so a gram under the original guestimation I had.

cut out the cowl , as you can see it needs thinninh and cut out larger on the bottom. should make it fun to mount the motor. I visualize a flat plate sitting horizontal spaning from side to side and cut to fit inside the dummy rotary in front. extending back to the font of the bottom wing. I would like to figure a simple battery mount on the botom of this plate. then mount the receiver(vapor brick) right behind the motor, possibly partially on the plate or on the front, top portion of the bottom wing.

I feel like I want to make the plate motor mount, and then do my best to mock up the whole plane to get approx. CG position beore I commit to battery and receiver location.

thanks
~don

dbcisco
12-09-2009, 05:37 AM
I love the shape of the Schuckert, a little like a cartoon plane. Sweet!

floss
12-09-2009, 06:39 AM
Remember to cram all the gear as far forward as possible now rather then having to change their locations afterwards or add nose weight. Hollowed out foam makes a shapely fuselage easy to replicate but it also makes for a heavy tail section. With the staggered top wing the CG will be nearer to the LE than on a biplane with two equally sized wings without stagger.

Shes looking good, nice building.

Ron
12-09-2009, 06:49 AM
what a neat looking model that's one definitely worth doing.keep up the good work

degreen60
12-09-2009, 11:38 AM
good stuff to know. sorry, but what is WBP? and what is pink stick glue?
excuse my ignorance, I'm still very new to this. sticker paper huh? sounds like I should have thought of that. great idea. how much does it weigh?

~don


Pink stick glue is Elemer's washable School Glue. WBP is Minwax water-based Polycrylic. I buy both at Walmart. I have not tried this but understand that if you put a couple of coats of WBP on foam you can then use any paint and not melt the foam. Also can use WBP and light weight fiber glass cloth to reinforce foam. I do not know how much a sheet of sticker paper weights. I do know that I can not tell any differant in the way my 2 Eflite Nieuports fly, one has the fuselage covered with sticker paper(my flying fish). I usally have to go around the edges of anything I glue on foam with pink glue. I think the fuzz on the foam lifts. After a couple of times reglueing the edges stay glued. I did my foam Albatros in lozenge using copier paper glued on with 3M and it flew ok. I have sense rebuild the Albatros and back dated the paint scheme, just painted the wings this time. The black crosses and the dragon are copier paper held on with stick glue. Stick glue disappears when it dries. I have used white stick glue too, the pink is easer to see where it has been applied.

7car7
12-09-2009, 05:00 PM
Looking great. Which Lozenge are you planning to use? I know that with the Albatros and others, the dark is for the top of wings, and the light is for the undersides. Is this the same for your plane?

scalercflyer
12-09-2009, 08:32 PM
I'm up for trying this plane in a bigger size. Can you provide some plans and/or suggestions? marty

scalercflyer
12-09-2009, 08:36 PM
See here for downloadable lozenge. I glued printed sheets onto my TM. Came out great. Marty

http://www.aerodromerc.com/

Dirky
12-09-2009, 08:36 PM
great work... can't wait to see the end!
One question please:
When you are sanding the fus to shape, don't you get a visible "seam" where pieces are glued together?

thx
Dirky

degreen60
12-09-2009, 08:52 PM
I'm up for trying this plane in a bigger size. Can you provide some plans and/or suggestions? marty

Want a printed paper plane to enlarge as a pattern or to glue on foam and make into the plane like I did my Bristol M1C? PM me your email if you do.

dcwwcp
12-10-2009, 01:38 AM
thank you to all for the kind words.

7car7 - I plan on using a 1/9 5 color pattern off of aerodromerc.com I modified th shade of it a bit. made the bottom pattern very light like on this replica (see pic).

thanks for the advice Floss, I have read that on here somewhere else also.

degreen - thank you so much for you help, the guns are great. I have some water based poly acrylic, and I'm definitely gonna checkout the pink stick! that albatross is awesome. I'm gonna have to build one for sure.

dirky - yeah but it's because of the glue. need to find a sandable glue. I used CA an it doesn't sand well. possibly an acrylic glue??

scalercflyer- I only have the lee hobbies peanut scale plans, but they seem to blow up nice. although I don't know what it would do if you did more than 200%. If I knew how to get them on the computer I could send them to you. I'm probably gonna bite the bullet and buy the arizonamodels 1/12 D.III plans.

I've been wanting to build the SSW D.III for a year and finding some new people to fly with at a local indoor spot just pushed me to get started on a dime scale version before I build a 1/12 or 1/11 scale.

If somebody would school me on how/where to scan the plans (originals are 16"x12") I would be more than happy to share them.

~dcwwcp

dbcisco
12-10-2009, 02:29 AM
This (http://posterazor.sourceforge.net/) is a great program for blowing up plans. You end up with a multi-page PDF file that has overlaps to make cutting and taping the pieces together very acurate and easy.

7car7
12-10-2009, 05:08 PM
I wonder, would Gorilla glue work good for joining layers of foam? Seems it turns to foam anyway, maybe it would sand easier on the seams? Don't know, just curious.

details
12-10-2009, 07:53 PM
hey thanks, I've read alot of your posts. yes thank you, I would like to try that. I definitely have to try and keep it light. the straw sounds like a great idea. [email protected]

I wish I could decide which marking I want to go with. I like the swiss markings, but everything I see shows a lozenge pattern that I don't much like.

the LT. Greven markings I like alot. heck I like Bechardt's plane but I'm not much for the swastika.

thank you very much for the input.
dcwwcp,

Wow, I just discovered your thread here and over on RCG! It's great to see somebody tackle this one. I've been collecting photos and info on SSW D.III and D.IV for a few months now as I want to do a D.III in about 1/8 to 1/10th scale. FYI, a Brit named Peter Illiffe built a FF 22" wingspan model of Udet's "Lo" that is a masterpiece. It is featured in the British RC magazine "Flying Scale Models" from May, 06 which is still available on backorder. It is great inspiration! You can probably find a few photos of it in a search of the web. I am attaching a photo of it.

Interesting fact about Bechardt is that he was Jewish and had the swastika on his plane for good luck as a lot of pilots from both Axis and Allies did. This was way before the Nazis ruined it.

Floss,
I would love to get a copy of the Fiddlersgreen PDF if it is still available!

degreen60
12-10-2009, 09:23 PM
Here is a file of a paper Siemens Schuckert that is small enough to post. I also have the files to make the LO plane.

dcwwcp
12-11-2009, 04:53 AM
I'm pretty whooped tonight. hard to get anything done when you're fallin' asleep.reckon I could just step outsidesince it's about 10 degrees F.

I did some experiments last night. I used minwax WBP to glue two pieces of pink foam togther. wow it really sticks them together! But, it does not sand worth a hoot. the gig seems to be that anything much harder than the foam is going to make a ridge at the seem when you sand it.

it' s too late to worry about it on this model, but I'm not going to build another until I find a glue that I really like for stickin fuselage formers together.

I also tried sandwiching layers of depron plate together to compare strength to one single thick layer. 3 - 1mm layers is definitely stronger than one 3mm layer.

I wanted to push myself to get this plane flying by Dec. 19 but I don't se it happening. the more I do the more I realize that I just keep wanting to add details that I probably shouldn't, being that this is my first scratch build plane.

dbcisco- that program looks great, thank you. don't know how I can scan the 16x12 plans on my little letter size scanner though. I'm gonna have to find out how to scan the plans.

peter's plane makes me feel like i'm building the budget model.but that's alright. I love the detail. it's truly amazing. I printed the photographs so I could study them.


I'm going to try and make the cutaway cowl and frame. that means adding something to support the dummy engine in addition to the motor mount plate.

hey thanks for the details...details:)

dbcisco
12-11-2009, 05:02 AM
You could just scan in 8x11 sections of the plan, past them together with photoshop then use posterazor to enlage and print.

degreen60
12-11-2009, 11:12 AM
Try using Loctite no mess glue, GWS glue, or white glue to glue foam together to sand. See if you like the seam one of these glues makes.

Here is the program I use to scan large items then put back together. It is free.

http://www.getpaint.net/

floss
12-11-2009, 09:23 PM
details
Send me an address if you want the full sized file.

dcwwcp
The secret is to sand the glue when it is partially set, the tiny particles of sanded foam and glue then get taken into any tiny imperfections and make for a perfect join. Find a clear spreadable glue you like and get to know it, soon you'll get into a rhythm, join, sand, cut foam, join, sand, cut foam. Then stand back and admire!

I have always used two-pot epoxy for my foam planes. The product is called '5 minute Araldite' but there are similar products all over the world, they come in a two chambered syringe. Absolutely perfect for this application, squirt out a tiny amount, mix and glue the two pieces together that require it and if they are bits that are visible and require an invisible join they are sandable for 15 mins before full hardening. The glue is able to flex and take shocks when hardened unlike foam-safe CA and has a great gap filling ability if it is required.

Also it will never let go. Wings can be glued straight on to fuselages without internal supports of any kind (as in the picture), the plane will only break where there are no joins in a crash.

Steve

dcwwcp
12-13-2009, 04:34 PM
wow, that's a good looking model ! man you guys are great. I'm gonna go try some different glues today. sounds like that epoxy is what I should try for the bottom wing and the struts.

I did a ton of work on my lozenge pattern, rib tape and decal markings. I'll have some pics up tonight.

one problem I had though, was that I sprayed some off-brand acrylic matte clear coat on some freshly made decals that I printed with the inkjet on decal paper, and it ruined the decal paper/decal.

have any of you had good luck with a particular spray fixative on decal paper? it's gonna start getting expensive experimenting at this rate.

thanks again for the advice on the plan programs and the glue.

~don

dcwwcp
12-14-2009, 05:41 AM
not much more progress right now. had to fix a lionel toy train, and pull apart the old microwave tonight. pretty much used me up for this evening.

here are some pics in the form of word documents of the lozenge pattern I'm going to use along with rib tapes in light blue. I had quite a time getting it like I wanted. the pattern is actually 1/18 so that I could put the rib taping at 1/20 scale and have it end up aligned with the other end of the 6 inch pattern. I should be able to put them together end to end this way. also made up a word document of the markings for decal sheet.

tes I decided to go with the swiss D.III. I've never seen anybody do one and I've always been interested in the kind of strange relationship betwen germany and switzerland. the fact that the paint job is easy and the marking are simple helped to push me that way too.

used the cicrle cutter again to make some nice printed tissue pieces to cover the wheels in lozenge pattern, and painted the gear with an aluminum silver paint.

painted the dummy engine a little just so it looked better.not going to spend too much time on it now.

I also wrapped the interplane struts in the printed tissue. it came out alright. the cabanes will be next.

need to get to work on the bits that actually make the thing fly;-)

but I have to go out of town for a few days on business, so not much of anything will get done this week.

~don

floss
12-15-2009, 05:30 AM
The Swiss plane was German anyway, at the end of the war several SS pilots couldn't stand the thought of their treasured mounts falling into allied hands and so flew them to Switzerland. The story is in the 'Flying Scale Models' article on the SS.

Great pics, cheers for sharing the build.

7car7
12-15-2009, 04:45 PM
Wow, very nice job on the lozenge. Love it. Landing gear is very cool, shock absorbing even. :tc:

scalercflyer
12-16-2009, 10:04 AM
Any chance I can get a hold of a set of those plans you have dcw? Marty

dcwwcp
12-22-2009, 06:20 PM
hey I think I figured out how to post the plans!

I went tooffice depot and scanned the plans, had them put on a flsh drive as a .pdf file and as a .tif file.

then took it home and reduced it a bit and saved it as a .JPG file.

the original plans were 12" x 16" but I don't know how big this is going to turn out.

you can probably save the attachments to your own flash drive and take them to office depot or fed-ex kinkos and have them turned into whatever size you need.

dcwwcp
12-24-2009, 07:32 AM
ok finally I get to work on the plane again. I covered the wings in lozenge pattern-printed tissue. I glued it on with UHU glue. tried using water poly acrylic, but it didn't work as well. not as much work time.

I tried to match the rib tape blue that I came up with in windows paint program, I got pretty close. I trimmed out the wings before I added the decals. the close ups in the second and sixth picture shows my mistakes in the lozenge and in the decals that I have yet to correct. I'm just winging it here folks! it's my first actual build.

next is sprayin the wings with a coat of Krylon matte finish.

WWI Ace
12-24-2009, 10:58 PM
Very cool little airplane but where is its 3rd wing? Steve

7car7
12-24-2009, 11:55 PM
Dude, that looks like a million bucks. The tiny little mis-match is nothing. You can fix that with a little paint brush easy. Really striking scheme with those rare to see emblems on the wings.

dcwwcp
12-24-2009, 11:57 PM
uh........thanks steve! I'll take a look at the drawings again, but I didn't see a 3rd wing the last time I checked.... :)

thanks 7car7. I've read alot of your posts. i've seen some of your great work too. I'm a S.E.5 fanatic. that's what will be next in the dime scale category.

I'm working on the cowl and the dummy engine right now. I'm for sure in over my head with this part. I just have to keep my cool and try to be practical with rest of the scale details. the plane is just getting too heavy now.

scalercflyer
12-25-2009, 12:32 AM
You amaze me! :eek: I am just a poor builder compared to you! :o Thanks for sharing the build with us. :) BTW want a nice set of SE5a plans? :D Marty

dbcisco
12-25-2009, 12:39 AM
Great looking job!

dcwwcp
12-25-2009, 12:52 AM
thank you very much! I hope it flies!

yeah I would love a set of S.E.5 plans. Did you get those plans I sent in the e-mail? did they look alright?

I need to get to work on the guts and start glueing stuff together.

7car7
12-25-2009, 06:57 PM
In trying to keep it light - just remember paper. Typing/Printer paper is very light and certainly strong enough for details. Add a little CA, and it's strong and stiff.

dcwwcp
12-25-2009, 10:34 PM
I keep trying to build it strong because I know I'm going to crash it. but I need to force myself to try and keep it light.

here's some pics of the finally mounted motor. you'd think it would look better for as long as it took me to figure out something. the motor is actually removeable.the dummy rotary is not the right one at all not even close but oh well. I just need the look of the detail to be satisfied while its in the air.
the battery compartment is underneath the motor. I believe I will use ultra thin velcro (parkzone style) to mount the battery to the bottom of the motor mount plate. I have some micro magnets to use to make the battery compartment lid stay on. they are really, really small and light. I want to use them to make a top hatch, for maintenance, out of the gun deck, since the top wing will be removeable also.

next is the aileron bell crank mounting placement and PZ brick reciever placement and mounting. takes me a while, I get nervous about screwin' it up.

floss
12-26-2009, 07:12 AM
Whoa:eek: she's nice and strong alright.

scalercflyer
12-26-2009, 10:51 AM
Remember d one builds to fly not to crash. Think positive! Marty

dcwwcp
12-26-2009, 04:04 PM
you think it's overkill floss? I'm all ears if you have an idea. I'm here to soak up all the constructive criticism I can get. I'm here to learn most of all.

good point scalercflyer. it's gonna need a few mods to lighten the rest of the fuse.it could probably be thinned out a bit.

I'm going to try to carbon fiber rods glued to .o25' wire ends for the ailerons as well as the elevator. might have too much flex on the ailerons though.

floss
12-26-2009, 07:46 PM
Not really coz its at the right end, just make the rest of the fuselage thinner without the industrial strengthening. Can't stress enough how that weight in the rest of the fuselage will not be your friend in the end and a plane this size can't carry a big ball of lead up front, keep it wafer thin with as little adhesive as possible. Build to fly slow and light and the crashes won't be fast and heavy.

Enjoying the build and the detail going in to this dc, cheers.

Steve

dcwwcp
12-30-2009, 04:56 AM
well I got the notion to go ahead and mount the lower wing on the fuse. I need it on in order to mount the PZ brick and the aileron bellcrank. then I can attach the elevator/horizontal stab. and finish the linkage. I used a very thin layer of epoxy to mount the wing. I usd some 3M dual lock to mount the PZ brick and just plain ol' CA on the bellcrank.

lastnight I got the dremel back out and shaved the fuse out very thin and remove the inner support wall that was right at the back of the cockpit. it was way too thick and wasn't doing much anyway. I also lightened the motor mount a bit.

I'm trying to think of a way to attach the upper ailerons to the lower ones without using any metal wire and still have it work and look good...

scalercflyer
12-30-2009, 07:35 PM
d just use some carbon fiber rods hidden inside the scale linkage. marty

dcwwcp
01-02-2010, 05:59 AM
well made progress today.I finished the aileron linkage. carbon fiber had way too much twist in it.probably would not hold up in the wind. I ended up using .025" wire for the full length of the linkage. not too terrible much of a weight difference. the small pieces of heat shrink are shrunk to a specific size and glued at the aileron end and in the midway point of the linkage. then they are razor cut open. this makes the rods easily removeable without major surgery.

the elevator linkage is .030" CF. as you can see from the pics, I made the control horn myself, and the other end at the reciever is bent up to provide clearance above the aileron bell crank.

glued the top half of the fuse on and taped it in place. I also glued the tail and underwing body section.

here's a small video of the linkage functioning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkSGhdDccEI

the green tape is of course temporary, until I'm satisfied with the alignment of the control surfaces/linkages.



probably need to do some painting before I put too much more on it right now.

dcwwcp
01-04-2010, 05:45 AM
now that the body is glued together I decidied to try and make the wing filets and some of the tail filets.
basically for the wing filets "eyeball it" by making some small pieces of 1mm depron for the main shape and then fill in the curves with light weight spackling. then sand down the whole mess. the tail section is just the spackling used like caulk to duplicate the pictures I've seen.

I did a bit of painting to see what it's going to look like. not bad, definitely still some roughness seen on the close up with the 'ol 5 megapixel camera, but good enough to fly around the gymnasium or baseball field :)
after I started painting I noticed I for got the hand holds below the cockpit and at the tail. then I thought I really should put panel lines on it if I can to make some attention away from the rough finish job.

I've been reading a thread at the aerodrome on the subject of SSW D.IIIs that flew to Switzerland and were "protected" with swiss markings so to speak. it is perfect information for my project. that place has been a geat source of reading for me.

so i decided to redo my skull and cross bones markings to look more like that of the pictures of the real plane. I'm using the markings of plane 8344/17 flown by arnold eger check out the thread :http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/aircraft/44671-siemens-schuckert-d-iii-iv-switzerland.html

great pictures that peter fella has.

dbcisco
01-04-2010, 06:15 AM
Nice looking build!

WWI Ace
01-04-2010, 11:40 PM
I've seen the trailers!!! When does the movie of it flying come out? LOL!!! Steve

dcwwcp
01-08-2010, 05:12 AM
good one steve. lol. are you insinuating I need to hurry up and get this thing in the air? "cause I agree.

did some more painting. still drying in the pictures. not the best paint job, but I can live with it. attached the rudder also. I like the way it came out.

started making a jig to make the spinner on the lathe. I have a little 9x20 metal lathe in my shop. most of my shop is actually set-up like a small machine shop. In retrospect, I should have made the fuselage on the lathe. live and learn.

the other thing I need to make is the "spider structure" that is in front of the engine. I had a piece of plastic in mind but I believe a simple pice of 1mm depron will be much easier to work with and lighter. its hard to tell what color to paint it. the original part was probably silver(metal)? but some pictures of the swiss marked planes show nothing but black. perhaps burnt caster oil is what color it ends up being ?

either way, after that , I think maybe I should cut the battery hatch and access panels. I have some really small magnets to possibly use to hold the panels on, but I don't know how well they will work yet. perhaps a tape and magnet combination, to make a flip open hatch.

dbcisco
01-08-2010, 05:14 AM
Neat looking and rarely seen plane.

dcwwcp
01-08-2010, 05:40 AM
thank you for the compliments dbcisco, allan flowers is the guy responsible for putting a fire in my belly to go for it. his 1/6 scale SSW D.III is the most amazing build thread that I've ever read. it's truly an inspiring plane.

it's an affliction for sure. the desire to want something very specific that is not available from the mass market. every hobby I'm into I end up that way.

small foam WWI scale planes, that's the latest addiction.

dbcisco
01-08-2010, 06:25 AM
What I love about WWI planes is that there are so many unique planes as compared to any other era. I am inspired by your build to tackle the Jenny peanut kit in the closet.

scalercflyer
01-08-2010, 09:17 AM
WWI aviation is my addiction! Of course bustin' on a certain Texican is also sweet! :eek::D Marty

7car7
01-08-2010, 10:47 PM
Noticed you included the grab handles in your build - nice touch.

WWI Ace
01-08-2010, 11:45 PM
dcwwcp- Yeah I'm just picking on you about the movie, or am I? LOL!! I just wanna see the tiny thing in the air!! I love the little planes but I have no access to indoor flying and it's usually windy here.

Marty- You'd better quit pickin' on me or I'm tellin' Mom!!!

scalercflyer
01-09-2010, 12:26 AM
Never, never! Ha,Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa:D Marty

dcwwcp
01-09-2010, 01:41 AM
man I hope it goes in the air with the mustang motor! the power to weight ratio is going to be fairly close to scale by the time I get done!

thanks 7car7. yeah it just seemed plain without them. then when I started making the indentions in the foam I thought they were too big. but when I added the bit of carbon fiber for the actual handle it looked better. one of them, the right rear handle is just two separate indentations, with a small line of CA glue between them in advance to make a hard line. that was what I should have done on all of them. not as defined, but lighter.

I glued a round bit of foam to a steel rod and I'm going to throw it in the lathe tonight and see if I can get the spinner right.

you ever get those plans Marty?

scalercflyer
01-09-2010, 06:24 AM
Yeah d I got them. Thanks.:) Haven't got to them yet, been kinda busy. :( I still owe you a couple of sets in return. Just need to find some time........... :( Marty

dcwwcp
01-09-2010, 07:48 AM
good deal, glad to hear you recieved them. I'm not ready for more plans yet anyway marty.

started making the spinner. I used a foam circle cutter from foam works and then glued it to a very straight 1/4" dowel rod. then chucked it up in the lathe all the way butted up against the chuck. started the sanding with a painter's sanding block, then moved to 220. once the shape is finalized, 400 gritwill finish the sanding.

used 1mm depron to make the spider structure. wow what a pain that little piece turned out to be. didn't look right no matter what. finally made one that was acceptable. allan flowers posted in his thread that he had documentation that stated that the structure was dark green in color, so that's what I did.

I re-positioned the landing gear after realizing my holes and perhaps the ones on the plans were too high. I did some test fitting, shortened the gear about 3/16". still gives me 1/2" clearance on the prop.

WWI Ace
01-09-2010, 01:34 PM
It's looking really good!!! I bet it will fly!! Steve

dcwwcp
01-10-2010, 06:56 AM
I decided that the next step was to make a service hatch and a battery compartment hatch. I plan to shoe-horn a 200 mAh battery in the front of this thing mainly because I've noticed a much better result in performance from the reciever(the brick) and the motor when a larger battery is used. larger meaning larger than the battery parkzone was providing with these componenets in stock form. having more head room on capacity actually seemed to have better discharge capapbility, resulting in consistently higher voltage during a longer portion of fly time.

anyway, the hatches are made by using two sets of micro magnets and a small piece of Blenderm tape. the tape is in the front of the hatch on both places, and the magnets are in the back of the hatch. this is to avoid the "hatch flinging open during flight" symptom that I believe would occur if I didn't do it the way I did.

I use a simple method for magnet placement, but somehow I still put one in the top hatch with the wrong polarity which I had to re-install. very annoying.

I sanded the tape after it was applied and then painted it hoping it would help conceal the tape, or flat out make it not look so ugly.

after this I believe I'm going to patch the old landing gear front strut holes and look at mounting the struts on the wing. still have to make the top wing removable for the top fuselage service hatch to be useful...

dcwwcp
01-11-2010, 05:32 AM
mounted the struts this evening. man the day goes by fast when you have little ones to try and get ready for the first day of the school week.

the struts make a big difference! feels like it's been a long time coming.

the second shot shows the only modification I had to do forthe struts to line up. I mis-located the front slot for the cabanes just a bit, causing them to slope down in thefront. I looked closer at some pictures of the actual plane and noticed the slight angle at which the two points of attachment of the the cabanes are at. easily corrected though.

the third shot is mt attempt to show that the alignment is pretty good.

the rest of the shots are just to see what it's going to look like as a biplane. a tease. I am excited to see it.

the fifth picture needs a pilot in it don't you think?

the last shot is what I hope to be doing shortly.:ws:


things still left to do:

make mounting tabs and pins for top wing.

make ailerons on top wing

make and attach aileron connecting rods and control horns

attach landing gear

make 4 blade prop and doctor up it's appearance to look "wooden"

7car7
01-11-2010, 06:50 PM
Dang, that's impressive! It's a very scary looking plane, quite serious looking.

btw, that front end (engine area, cowl) looks really good. That was time consuming.

dcwwcp
01-12-2010, 12:42 AM
hey thanks man. I wish it looked better , but man I just got tired of messin' with it. at some time I just get to the point where I say to myself "good enough!"

yeah I figure that's why nobody has done the swiss markings. it has the black paint job with the skull and bones. I actually didn't believe that the pictures of it like that were accurate. Ive not seen any other swiss markings that looked like that.then I saw the pictures that were posted on the aerodrome. that's when I decided to make my jolly roger decals a bit more accurate. the originals are a bit scary looking.

probably work onn the top wing tonight.

~dcwwcp

IndyJones
01-12-2010, 01:07 AM
It's looking really good!!! I bet it will fly!! Steve


It's going to fly like a peed-off bumblebee! :ws:

scalercflyer
01-12-2010, 01:12 AM
Stop teasing us. Git it flying! Marty

degreen60
01-12-2010, 01:39 AM
yeah I figure that's why nobody has done the swiss markings. it has the black paint job with the skull and bones. I actually didn't believe that the pictures of it like that were accurate. Ive not seen any other swiss markings that looked like that.then I saw the pictures that were posted on the aerodrome. that's when I decided to make my jolly roger decals a bit more accurate. the originals are a bit scary looking.
~dcwwcp

The skull and bones stood for immortality. I think I have some files of decals for the skull and bones if you want them. I only found this one but know I have more. You can see the one I made for my MS-N. I "painted" it with black marking pen on white foam.

dcwwcp
01-12-2010, 02:10 AM
now that's a cool looking plane. I'll hav to look that one up. looks great in the air.

appreciate the offer, that's a pretty good picture

I took the image right off the plane and modified it in paint to make the black really black so as to make a single, easily applicable decal.

here it is blown up, when reduced, it looks pretty good.

marty...I'm close...I can almost taste it!

dbcisco
01-12-2010, 03:10 AM
That scheme really took away the "cuteness" of the plane. :)

dcwwcp
01-12-2010, 05:05 AM
you're right, it did. that's why I decided to scrap the decals I had and redo them as closely to the pictures of the real plane in schaffhausen.
if you look at the skull and cross bones in the picture I have for a first attachment, it's almost as though it has eyeballs. creepy.

to me, these swiss SSW D.III's are the refined german fighter planes that slipped away at the end of the war. why was important enough at the time to take it to a different country? Under orders? Or was it beckhardt's call to make? the only one with a swastika on his planes. the man who ultimately became a key player in creating the WWII luftwaffe. the more I learn about the story of these planes the more I realized I had to do the swiss version, or I would alway wish I did...

I love a good story.

didn't do much tonight, put some control horns on the lower wing ailerons where I'm going to put rods to attach to the upper wing ailerons.

I cut the upper wing ailerons and finished them. you can see in the pic of the lower side that when I glued the tissue back down on the angle, it look pretty good.

lastly, I "tack glued" the top wing where it goes after that. just temporary until I can flip it over and mark the connection. I plan on making carbon fiber pins to hold it onto the struts.

degreen60
01-12-2010, 07:24 AM
I took the image right off the plane and modified it in paint to make the black really black so as to make a single, easily applicable decal.

here it is blown up, when reduced, it looks pretty good.


I added this to my collection. Thanks, Don

WWI Ace
01-14-2010, 12:01 AM
Wow!!! That skull is very eerie looking!!! Cool!!! Steve

scalercflyer
01-14-2010, 12:22 AM
I love it! Gives it lots'a character! :D Marty

dcwwcp
01-16-2010, 08:17 AM
gettin' closer.

mounted the top wing and made it removable by using some .020" clear plastic (blister packaging from a christmas toy) and .030" carbon fiber pins to go through the plastic and through the struts. the wing was first tac glued into plac with wa minute amount of UHU, then I cut 1" long strips as wide as the struts, cut slots in the bottom of the wing,pushed then in and then taped them to the struts. then the wing is removed carefully and the plane flipped back over. the holes are drilled with a #70 bit and dremel through the plastic and strut at the same time. small .030" CF pins are then installed through the hole , with a small bit of wax paper folded over the strut inside the plastic braces. this is so the glue used to glue the plastic braces to the wing does not glue the actual struts down. I flipped the top wing upsidedown and proceeded to glue one set of struts at a time. after it tacked up, I pulled the pins, removed the struts and the wax paper and let it dry. they line up great. very sturdy, a strongly mounted, but removable top wing.

built the relay control arms for the top ailerons, they work well and are lined up with the struts.

mounted the landing gear with 5 minute epoxy. came out good.

put a 5043 GWS prop on it and put a battery in it. oh yeah! tracks pretty straight on the ground.

thinking about taking it to indoor fly nite tomorrow. still needs a pilot decals, and guns minimum.

dcwwcp
01-17-2010, 05:55 PM
SHE FLIES !!! WOOHOO !!!

wheu. I was sweatin' it. nervous jitters for sure. did the maiden flight last night at indoor fly nite with everybody watchin'(atleast it felt that way). she took off right off the gound. gained too much too fast and stalled out. 3/4 throttle and it was tail heavy. the CG didn't seem that bad when I check it. landed in th bleachers and it took a hit to the landing gear. right then I realized my landing gear design was wrong. relies on the glue too much.

stalled it out a few more times, two more off the ground, and two more throwing it. took some hard hits and learned quickly that I need to redisign the landing gear and cabanes. I did find out that the struts and wings are strong enough to go it alone.:silly:

added some down elevator trim and had one of the guys throw it while I kept my hands on the controls.gave it a little over 1/2 throttle and he tossed it. it tried to climb into a stall again, (not as bad though,) and I leveled it off and brought the throttle down a bit. I banked it left pulled it around and she was flyin' !! circled it around the gym and landed (with a forward flip) on the stage and crashed into a metal chair.


so there was plenty of crashing, But... I learned some valuable things about design, had a great time, and it flies at half throttle!

so i can proceed with more scale details, like the pilot, windshield and guns.

I also feel confident that I will have plenty of throttle head room to try a 4 blade prop for more than just scale looks.

I need to decide which props to use. the GWS 5043, 5030 or I've seriously been looking at the PZ micro mustang props. they are similar to the 5043 I tried last night but they are designed with threads to fit the 1.5 mm shaft of the motor. this makes a pair of them much lighter than a pair of gws props.


so I could use some ideas for landing gear design and better cabane attachment to the fuselage. any help would be greatly appreciated.





on a side note, my DX6i has a case of the "jitters" in the elevator pot. basically the recall issue, and mine wasn't on the recall list. horizon said they would take care of it, so I have to ship it back. should be back in time for the next indoor fly nite.

dbcisco
01-17-2010, 06:08 PM
Sweeeeet!!!!

scalercflyer
01-17-2010, 06:32 PM
Well done D! :) We're all darn proud of you! :D;):cool: Marty

WWI Ace
01-17-2010, 11:01 PM
But I wanted to see it fly!!!!! Wah!!!! Steve

dcwwcp
01-17-2010, 11:05 PM
when I get it all trued up, I'm definitely gonna make a video!

dcwwcp
02-07-2010, 05:12 PM
it's been awhile, and I have spent sometime cleaning the shop, hanging lights, and building shelves....and oh yeah working on some scale details of the SSW D.III

I used the spandau file that degreen sent me, (very much appreciated indeed) and used 3mm depron fo the breech and rolled paper tube for the barrel.

I wanted to get a hold of some hernia mesh material to make the barrel cooling shrouds. it has very similar holes and looks very scale. but I couldn't wait and just used somefiberglass window screen mesh wrapped around the paper tube. it looks okay. the tip aof the barrel is just a bit of black shrink tube. the feed chutes are just 1mm depron cut from the curved part of a foam plate.;)

I didn't notch the gun deck for the guns, I just cut the bottom of the guns off. took the easy way out on that one.

the pilot is a 1/20 scale 2 piece vaccuum molded item from Easybuiltmodels.com I went to this website: http://www.acesofiron.com/paint.htm to study how to paint a pilot and not make it look horrible or pathetic.
I didn't do well hiding the seam, but the paint job came out okay. I just mixed tan, brown, white, black, and red to get the various shades. I didn't want to buy oil base paint or any other colors.

I used a small bit of water diluted royal blue, (a very small, very diluted bit) in a blob of uhu glue, to make the lenses of the goggles look glassy.

the close-ups of the pilot make his eyes look too blue and are before I did the last layer of glue on the goggles. the pilot actuallydoesn't look as bad as the pictures make it look.


I repaired the cabane strut attachment points by adding a small tab of CF flat bar to the back of the existing CF flat bar support. then I used small flat plates of polycarb plastic on the body attachment points to spread out the load and keep the strut from getting jammed into the body again.

I did the same repair to the LG and also put CF hubs in the wheels and polycarb plates at the axle cradle point to be a flexible support.

unfortunately, I had a bad crash and the weakness of my motor mount proved apparent. ouch! it's not as bad as it looks though. I re-made the motor mount in a manner that touched the fuse in 4 points instead of two and didn't weigh alot more. I also coated the hole cowl, inside and out in WBpolyacrylic. two coats on the outside to help with firmness and scuffs.

I took two PZ UM mustang props and made a 4 blade prop and a spinner.
I made a jig to hold the prop in the drill press then took an end mill bit and took the back half of the hub of one, and the front half of the hub on the other. then they lock together quite well.

the spinner is just a 3rd of a 1.5 " foam ball sliced off and doctored up. it's a bit too hard though, I'd ike to find something a bit more shock absorbing to fit my flying style:D

the plane is going to outgrow the motor at this rate. the wing loading is fine, but it's probably going to be more fun to fly with a micro brushless in it.

degreen60
02-07-2010, 06:26 PM
the pilot is a 1/20 scale 2 piece vaccuum molded item from Easybuiltmodels.com I went to this website: http://www.acesofiron.com/paint.htm to study how to paint a pilot and not make it look horrible or pathetic.
I didn't do well hiding the seam, but the paint job came out okay. I just mixed tan, brown, white, black, and red to get the various shades. I didn't want to buy oil base paint or any other colors.

I used a small bit of water diluted royal blue, (a very small, very diluted bit) in a blob of uhu glue, to make the lenses of the goggles look glassy.

the close-ups of the pilot make his eyes look too blue and are before I did the last layer of glue on the goggles. the pilot actuallydoesn't look as bad as the pictures make it look.

After I paint my pilots I coat them(even the glass in the goggles) with a wash of black acrylic paint made very thin with water and a couple of drops of liquid soap. It makes the pilots look dirty and hides bad spots.

Plane looks great just keep it away from my Camel.

dcwwcp
02-09-2010, 05:01 AM
so I finally made a COG stand. just a quick bending of metal and a couple rubber tips.
the other thing I did was to make a platform with a scale on it to sit right under the tailskid. I leveled it up to bring the stabilizer true, tilted the plane up a bit off the scale , turned it on and set the plane back down on the scale.the reading should be how "off balance" the weight of the plane is. for this particular plane it seemed that the weight differential ratio (I don't know what it's really called) is 32%. in other words 1 gram of weight at the prop is only worth .32 grams at the tailskid. the short nose is a killer.

the SSW D.III is tail heavy. Floss tried to warn me. I really thought I was keeping it light in the rear, but I guess not.


anybody have ideas for lightening up the tail? I'm at a loss. I have a feeling shifting the reciever all the way forward is not going to be enough.

I don't really want to change my aileron control rods out, or remove the pilot until I exhaust all other options.

TM4197
02-09-2010, 05:12 AM
DC...

IS the stab..all foam? could you router out holes? or cut out slots, then use black paper to cover. tissue?

dbcisco
02-09-2010, 05:22 AM
I found that balsa framed (with ultralite covering) tail feathers are lighter than foam ones of equal strength.

TM4197
02-09-2010, 05:26 AM
good point... I Had a Scout that I had to router out 1/2 '' holes on the stab, then covered in tissue, I thought the paint would put the weight back up..but it didnt. I even routed out holes in the vert fin. My next attempt would have been balsa frame.

degreen60
02-09-2010, 11:04 AM
How far back is the fuselage hollow? If you did not hollow it you maybe able to take a hot soldering iron and melt more of the foam out. If the prop is held on by a nut see if you can get a heaver nut. Hobby shops use to sell weights nut for nitro engines don't know if they still do or make the size you need. If you have rods for controls change to pull-pull using string. On some of my planes I mounted servos and battery tray just behind firewall, ESC and receiver are mounted under the cowl each side of the motor.

dcwwcp
02-10-2010, 03:55 AM
the fuselage is hollow all the way back to the stabilizers. the body is only 1/8" thick from the pilot on back.

the pull pull string is interesting, but they are linear servos and there's only one rod going back anyway.

I just slapped the vapor brick on top of the motor right up against the dummy motor. it weighs about 3.5g so shifting it forward an inch should help. but it only helped a little. it it made approx a 1 gram difference measured at the tailskid. which is about 1/3 of my "weight problem".

the pilot can be chopped right below the shoulders and a new shorter "cockpit basket" can be made. but even painted he only weighs .6 grams.
I calculated that a change in weight at the cockpit is worth about 50% at the tailskid. so if I cut my pilot and basket weight by .4 grams, it's only gonna make a .2 gram difference on the scale.

I'm afraid that, to get the COG right at 1/3 back from the leading edge of the top wing, some drastic measures will have to be taken.

1) move the vaporbrick forward as stated, and redo linkages. value=1g

2)chop the pilot and cockpit basket length in half. value=.2g

3)replace .025" aileron control wire with .020" value= .1

4)try making tail feathers up in stick and tissue. value= ?(I'd say .2g at best)

5) perhaps pull the tissue off the bottom of the wings and dremmel out foam between the rib tapes? (not fun). value=.8g to 1g

at best that's only 2.5g not quite enough and alot of work. I'm wondering how close do I really have to be? If I get within .5g at the tailskid it should fly well enough maybe?


my parkzone UM mustang is a hair tail heavy. it flies just fine with a bit of down elevator trim. I should weigh it at the tail wheel and see where it comes up at. give me something to go off of.

hey thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it.

7car7
02-10-2010, 04:20 PM
I've been away from your thread for a while, I was really bummed to see the problems, but nice to hear it was flying!

You know, every little bit really does add up. It seems you're dealing with tiny numbers, but with several different things, it will be worth it. Don't bother with lightening the wings, they're not forward enough to matter. But on that note, you could move them back about 1/4 of an inch, it wont be scale, but it will help out a LOT.

I'd just stick to what you've mentioned. Gear ALL the way up, and lighter pilot at the very minimum.

Just one more thought - tail heavy planes can fly a lot slower than nose heavy planes. Perhaps the tail heavy attitide can be to your advantage, as long as you approach flight that way. Fly it slower, and know that more throttle is not your friend. My lightweight SE5 flies really well slow, but too much throttle makes it wierd.

I also like Degreens thought on a heavier nut. Maybe even a heavier prop. I was going to sugest a hand made wood prop, but in reality, when done correctly, they are very light, so, it'd just be a scale advantage, not much "positive" weight penalty.

Oh, one more thought - you could actually add a bell crank just aft of your actuator, and run strings off that for pull pull. BUt that bell crank HAS to be on CG or in front of, for any benefit obviously.

WWI Ace
02-10-2010, 11:38 PM
Can you put a slightly larger battery in it? Just a thought. Steve

degreen60
02-11-2010, 12:14 AM
I use pieces of automotive wheel weights under the cowl to add weight to front of plane. I don't even buy them just find them on ground in parking lots.

dcwwcp
02-11-2010, 12:37 AM
the plane is overweight in general. the wings are too thick and over reinforced. but loosing weight in the wings would be a last resort.

I suppose the whole tail end of the plane could be redone and cored out to 1mm thickness. it just seems a waste of time trying to lose weight by shaving off foam. you know, i think it's the paint that made the tail heavier. that black paint is heavy believe it or not.I started painting at the tail when I started, and I didn't thin the paint out.

I'm ging to try something different on the SE5a. I want to try a thin coat of WBpolycrylic on the fuse before painting and then thin the paint out also. should help keep it from soaking up as much paint.

thanks for all the responses guys I'm going to get working on the little beer keg tonight :D

dcwwcp
02-11-2010, 04:11 AM
so looking closelt at the remounting of the reciever, I need something thinner than the 3mm foam but just as strong to redo the top of the motor mount because it is going to be the reciever mounting plate. if can keep it down to 1/32" I can slip the reciever forward a little more. which would help tremendously with the weight problem.

I have aircraft plywood in 1/32, but it is 4X as heavy as the 3mm depron. so I was wondering, have any of you made balsa plywood before?

7car7
02-11-2010, 09:37 PM
I've made balsa ply, but there is also 1/64 ply available.

When doing the ply, you could use epoxy, put a drop or 2 on the wood, and then use a credit card type sheet of plastic to spread it out real thin, then press the layers together. Epoxy is flexible, less likely to crack than CA. Or use wood glue (elmers). But thin it out with a card.

TM4197
02-11-2010, 09:42 PM
Good point, I have found 1/64th balsa in Michaels craft shops, not sure if you have them there or not. They have a good selection of balsa. I buy my wooden wheels and round motor mounts there as well.

degreen60
02-11-2010, 10:43 PM
tremendously with the weight problem.

I have aircraft plywood in 1/32, but it is 4X as heavy as the 3mm depron. so I was wondering, have any of you made balsa plywood before?


If it is forward of COG you need the weight.

dcwwcp
02-12-2010, 12:28 AM
(If it is forward of COG you need the weight. )

degreen - well I'm fine on wing loading but I'm at 125% of the thrust of the motor. shifting weight would be okay for now, but I don't want to gain any more. otherwise all it will be able to do is land.:{

there's a michael's down the street actually. I'm really lucky in that respect. I have a hobby lobby, michael's, and joann's all within a mile and a half. not to mention a well stocked LHS 5 miles away.

I have 1/32 balsa, I'll hve to call michaels and see if they have some1/64.

thanks for the advice guys.

dbcisco
02-12-2010, 04:26 AM
Try basswood instead of balsa. A little heavier than balsa of same thickness but stronger than thicker balsa. They should have basswood at Michaels.

dcwwcp
02-16-2010, 03:34 PM
well I finally got something done. been sick as a dog. dual ear infection and of course a sinus infection in the middle that started it all. lost quite a bit of hearing in the last few days. no permanent damage the doc says, but boy it hurts. haven't had an ear infection since I was a kid.(30 some odd years ago)

anyway, I made a two ply balsa plate for mounting the receiver. less than half the weight of the 1/32 plywood, and just a hair heavier than the 3mm depron. definitely stronger than the depron. I used 5 min. epoxy for the lamination and it has great flexibility without cracking.

I basically took two 1/32 sheets, glued them together cross grained and sanded each side down to get it back to 1/32. fairly quick procedure.

it has a slot cut in the middle of it and is mountedright on top of the gear/prop shaft of themotor. the shaft actually sticks up just a hair past the top of the balsa plate. this gives me extra room to push the front of the receiver into the dummy engine. I used two strips of 3M dual lock to mount the receiver. one strip on each side of the protruding prop shaft. all of this is a tight fit, but it makes the receiver farther forward and gives access to the prop shaft back nut so I can replace it and oil it when need be.

new rods were bent from .020" music wire. these weigh morethan the originals, but I reduced the aileron control rods down to .020" from the .025" originals. this reduced weight by .4 grams. I don't know how it will react though. probably fine inside. but my not handle much wind. the only way to know is try it I suppose.

I modified the angle of the aileron rods at the bell crank this time. this way I gained a a little more throw. approx. .275" instead of .240". might help out in a jam. If I get it flying well, and if it ever warms up outside, I'm gonna try barrel rolling this little flying beer barrel!

I also cut the pilot in half. he is now just head and shoulders. fromthe expression on his face, he dosn't seem to care:silly:, he just wants to fly.:Dthis made it possiblle to just put a simple plate at the cockpit hole, and cut it out underneath the pilot to help save weight.

all in all I was able to shave 1.1g at the cockpit area and aileron rods.

when I tested the CG it was still 2.4g overweight at the tailskid!

how annoying. doesn't add up really. remaking the tail feather will only make a .3g to .4g difference so I need to find something else I can do to get it closer.....

TM4197
02-16-2010, 06:14 PM
I agree with you, this does not sound right as far as the rear weight goes.

"the other thing I did was to make a platform with a scale on it to sit right under the tailskid"

Do you have a pic of this rig? and how you did it? Something just dosn't sound right. You have me trying to over figure this out..and my brain is not use to this.:<:

dcwwcp
02-16-2010, 07:30 PM
well I did some checking and the original CG position on the plans shows it farther back then where I had it. so I check my measurements and they were indeed wrong. I repositioned the marks and check this position with this method for finding the CG of a biplane with staggered unequal chord wings, shown below.

makes more sense now. I was siiting at approx. 29% and shifted it back to the new real 33% marks. and the scale show about 1.5g tail heavy. right where I thought it would be.

I also started looking at the profile of my plane and the plans and found that my LG are not mounted inline with the front of the cabane strut mounting points as they should be.

so I think that shifting my 9 gram LG forward a .25" will make more of a weight change than painstakingly rebuilding the tailfeathers.

if it still needs more adjustment, then it's time for a bigger motor and battery!

TM4197
02-16-2010, 07:41 PM
Wheeew....ok..that does make sense now....I can relax now...Don't do that to us!! When you move the LG forward and still need a little weight..I added wire to my axle "see it wrapped center on axle" put my CG spot on. I just kept wrapping until I got the weight where I wanted this puppy to fly.

dcwwcp
02-18-2010, 03:48 AM
alright, well the LG is only 5g and moving it up a 1/4" didn't do squat. where it's mounted is too close to the CG to make a difference.

it needs 4 grams at the cowl to balance the plane.

so, whats better, to be 1.5g tail heavy and running a 56g plane with 40 grams of thrust?
or
be balanced, and try and run a 60g plane with 40g of thrust?

yes, lesser of two evils for now. I have my been looking at some micro brushless motors and speed controls. once I slap one of those in, having power won't be a problem. a set-up that weighs 4 grams more than what I'm running (brushless+esc+bit bigger battery) won't have a problem generating 70g of thrust.

the hard part then, will be squeezing it all in there.

7car7
02-18-2010, 07:59 PM
Alright, enough science already! Just add 5 grams to the nose and get us a video!

:tc:

degreen60
02-19-2010, 12:20 AM
t needs 4 grams at the cowl to balance the plane.
so, whats better, to be 1.5g tail heavy and running a 56g plane with 40 grams of thrust?
or
be balanced, and try and run a 60g plane with 40g of thrust?


A 60g plane with 0 thrust and COG correct is a glider. An unblanced plane with lots of thrust is a crash waiting to happen.

dcwwcp
02-19-2010, 02:33 AM
degreen, I really like the way you put that. I have to say I think your right. flying a biplane with a short tail and a big elevator that is out of balance is why I keep stalling.

one thing though.how much thrust do you need to stay in the air? depends on the type of air foil, the weight of the plane, and what else?(oops! more science 7car7 :tc:)

when the plane weighed less (53 or 54g I think it was)it stayed up at half throttle which is about 20 grams of thrust. so just less than half the weight of the plane. so I shouldn't have to keep it WOT to fly it I would think.

thanks guys

the next model is going to be an S.E.5a of the same size. should be able make it lighter and should be a little easier to balance.

7car7
02-19-2010, 07:01 PM
Not sure about the formula, but drag comes into the equation too, not just airfoil.

I do know this - in theory, a 100 gram plane with 100 grams of thrust will pretty much hover vertical, but won't climb vertical. I don't think any thing in WWI came even CLOSE to hovering. ;-)

(btw, I love the science of this stuff, but sometimes you just have to go right brain on these things, too much left brain will keep them on the bench.)

(2nd btw, Degreen, that was a great comment!)