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Advanced Design 1920 Dayton Wright RB1 Racer with Flight Video

Old 02-01-2011, 07:31 PM
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Bill G
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Default Advanced Design 1920 Dayton Wright RB1 Racer with Flight Video

I've been kicking around modeling subject ideas since completing the Saro A1, and haven't found anything that is both unique, and that I like. Eventually I honed in on this subject. The more I research it, the more interesting it becomes. The plane has some challenging scale features such as retracts (like the Grumman F3F and Wildcat), flaperons, and a front wing section which pivots downward with the flaperons to change the wing camber. I'll attempt to model all those features, and I can always just not use the flap-camber change in flight, if it proves troublesome. May have to wait for the tall grass for this one.

As usual, I don't do fantasy threads, so the printer is running off the enlarged Jetco plan as I type now. With $20 invested in printer ink, I'd better go ahead with the project. I also found an excellent restoration write up, and a sketch with more accurate sections than the Jetco plan has, all of which will be printed for reference. Here goes trimming and clear taping 50 odd sheets together.

edit: More than $20 in ink. Some idiot thought that they had the re-scaling procedure down pat, and didn't double check before printing. The first attempt at printing the 25 sheet plan was a waste. It's reprinted and all taped together, and is something like 30 sheets now, since it is properly scaled for 34/5" span.

From Airliners.net:




Some interesting links:
http://www.ww1aeroinc.org/files/11_Dayton_Wright_RB.pdf
http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...-Wright%20RB-1
http://www.felixdk.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2651642
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmar...n/photostream/
rubber builds from the Jetco kit:
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/...p?topic=1177.0
http://www.virtualaerodrome.com/imag...ize=1&offset=0
Model photoshopped in the air, planned for speed 280:
http://annarborrcfalcons.com/images/...n-Wright-1.jpg

Last edited by Bill G; 06-27-2011 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:45 AM
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Wow Bill, great bird. I have seen this in person at the Henry Ford Museum. Quite stunning. I'm interested to see how you do all of the complicated mechanicals and still end up with something that may actually fly.

Watching and learning.
Steve
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:07 AM
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Bill G
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Originally Posted by Stevephoon View Post
Wow Bill, great bird. I have seen this in person at the Henry Ford Museum. Quite stunning. I'm interested to see how you do all of the complicated mechanicals and still end up with something that may actually fly.

Watching and learning.
Steve
Thanks Steve. I'm already fully engulfed in studying the drawings. I wish I could go see the plane at the museum too. Whatever I do, I can't build a tank, at 34.5" span.
Interesting that the designer must have known something back then about pylon racing airfoil sections. I was looking for a know rc section, and came across the S2055, which looks similar:
http://www.worldofkrauss.com/foils/1241
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:47 PM
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Found this 3view
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:07 PM
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Subscribed, should make for a beautiful model .
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:39 PM
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Bill G
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Thanks Hiflyerk and Smokejohnson.
I haven't seen that 3-view and will save it. The more the better, as they all seem to disagree a bit. I haven't cut fuse formers yet, so it will help in determining what the correct shape is, when comparing with photos.

As much as I enjoy scratch building, starting builds is the most difficult part for me. I want to be building, and don't much enjoy rescaling, printing, trimming, and taping drawings together. Cleaning up the grainy drawing by sketching over is necessary, but you still aren't building anything. The only interesting part is that it gives you time to think about the design, make modifications to the plan, and in some cases, develop a plan from a 3-view. I'll start to enjoy the project, once I have a fuse frame coming together. I've started cutting fuse keels now.

For this build, the Jetco plan is laid out well enough to use it as a basic plan. The fuse formers are being developed from other 3-views however. The Jetco plan places the stringers over the formers, to eliminate then need for notch cuts, as well as being not 100% accurate. They would be too difficult to resolve into useful sections, when I have better ones on hand.

Since my Stosser scratch build, I'll always consider scrapping a plan and developing a 3-view into a plan, if the plan is not accurate. After the fuse keels had been cut for my Stosser, I then realized that the fuse sections from the free flight plan were inaccurate. At that point, I didn't want to scrap the work that I had completed, so I merged the plan with fuse former sections rescaled from a good 3-view. All said, it would have been easier in that case, to have just started with a good 3-view and not use the free flight plan that I had cut the keels from.
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:07 PM
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Another great unusual model build Bill, looking forward to seeing this one develop. I found your comment regarding fuselage sections on published plans being inaccurate when compared to three view drawings so appropriate as I have just started building a foam Blohm and Voss BV-215 from a free plan. The fuselage section formers were drawn from the plan and the fuselage hot wired before I found a good three view which showed that plan had been modified to enable easy building. Oh well!
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Old 02-05-2011, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by baz49exe View Post
Another great unusual model build Bill, looking forward to seeing this one develop. I found your comment regarding fuselage sections on published plans being inaccurate when compared to three view drawings so appropriate as I have just started building a foam Blohm and Voss BV-215 from a free plan. The fuselage section formers were drawn from the plan and the fuselage hot wired before I found a good three view which showed that plan had been modified to enable easy building. Oh well!
Cool plane. Did you find the plan from Mike's site?
http://www.ffscale.co.uk/plans15.htm

Yep, sometimes it makes sense when there are minor changes which simplify a build. Other times, I've had no clue why the changed things.
The more I scratch build, the more I simply look for good 3-views. I think there would be many more scratch builds, if folks realized how easy it is to develop a "Guillows style" build from a 3-view. When it has sections, it is almost a plan. You only lose a few days getting caught up to the point where you've rescaled/printed/assembled the plan sheets, completed the necessary sketching/cleanup and cutting parts. The beauty is that it doesn't have to be perfect. You'll figure out the errors as soon as you attempt to run stringers across the formers. From there, its just a bit of padding to formers to get the curves smooth and correct. I've had a few folks ask me if I could send them the plans that I developed. Reality is that 90% of the time, they'd want to shoot me, if they tried to build from the initial former sketches.
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Old 02-05-2011, 12:59 AM
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Subscribed, This will be a interesting build with leading edge flaps Good luck to you on the build, When its done, Can I be the one to Maiden it JK, Take care, Chellie
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Old 02-05-2011, 02:00 AM
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Looking forward to watching.
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Old 02-05-2011, 10:26 AM
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Bill, it was a free plan in this months RCM&E magazine, supposed to be built from 6mm depron but I wanted to use my threaded rod and 2inch thick foam board method instead. I fully agree with you, the easiest way to start a scratch build is to get hold of some good 3 view drawings with fuselage sections included and scale and print it with Poste Razor.
Can't wait to see how your latest turns out!
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Old 02-06-2011, 02:07 AM
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Thanks for the comments Tilodar and Baz.
Baz I wonder if the Mike's Scale Pages plan could be used for a foam build. It would definitely make a nice balsa build, but for whatever reason, I like using foam for EDF builds also. Until recently, they were most all made from foam, although maybe sheeted afterward.

Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Subscribed, This will be a interesting build with leading edge flaps Good luck to you on the build, When its done, Can I be the one to Maiden it JK, Take care, Chellie
Take a look at my WTFLYR You Tube videos. I'm expecting this one to be like the Savoia Marchetti SM64 and Herr GeeBee R2 maidens. All went well, but they weren't exactly the most relaxing planes I've flown.

I'll be able to start assembling the fuse frame soon, now that the keels and formers are cut. We'll see how much sanding/padding it takes to get smooth curves, when running the stringers. I've been cutting the stringer notches as I run them as of lately, as you can better determine their paths to get a good result. It is easier to cut them before hand, but unless you have a solid CAD program, it's a guess.

Edit:
I started assembling the fuse keels and formers, and I am glad that I did not try to pre-cut stringer notches. I'm also glad that I am using a plan, for reference. Different fuse shapes string differently. For this one, the plan shows all the stringers running parallel to the fuse side keels. The designer must have figured out how to run them, to get the correct fuse shape. Sure enough, when I test ran stringers along the fuse, that was how they had to run to get the correct shape. So far the formers seem promising, and should not require much reshaping before running stringers. Some fuses run the stringers on angles, tapering into a single point at the tail. That would not work out for this fuse. The fuse shape looks to be fairly simple, but is more complex that it appears at first glance. The sides flatten out a bit, but not completely, The top and bottom profiles are different, and the fuse transitions from a vertical oval shape, to a round, and then to a horizontal oval shape at the tail.


Neat little animated GIF I found on the web. Maybe I can shrink it for an avatar?
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Last edited by Bill G; 02-07-2011 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:22 PM
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Will have to stop in and see how this project is progressing periodically
Bill.

Cheers,
Dave
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Old 02-07-2011, 04:44 PM
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Hi Bill,
What a great subject for building. I have wanted to build one for some time now. I have gone through the trouble of drawing up much of the model in cad based on the Jetco plan. I think it overkill for me to do that for a one off but I enjoy working with cad.

If you are interested I have many detailed photos of the RB1 from the Henry Ford Museum that I have taken the last few years.

I'm looking forward to your build and the conclusions you come to.
Jim
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Old 02-11-2011, 01:37 AM
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Thanks HO229 and Eliworm. Eli, as you probably saw this build is based on the Jetco plan also. I'm amazed that I have not found any other rc builds of the plane. If you complete a detailed CAD plan for laser cut parts, some folks may actually build one. The fuse looks like it would not be too difficult to model in solids, with something like the Pro-e that I used to use as a designer.

A bit of progress lately, but not at the pace of my last few builds. That was too much like work. The Williams brothers vintage wheels would be perfect, but for now I used cardstock to make spoked covers for the Dubro spoked wheels. My one issue with the WB wheels is that I would really like 2-3/4", and they only have 2-1/2" vintage wheels. That said, I modified a set of 2-1/2" wheels that I have on hand. Here's the WB wheels that do look perfect for this plane:


I figured that I'd get the window framing and window glass out of the way. I like to complete some of the detail parts as I go along, and store them in a bag. Makes things easier when at the end of the build. The window frame area needs some type of framing to support the sheeting, or there would probably be problems after cutting out the windows. I used inset planking, and shaped it to match the fuse contour in the area.
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:40 AM
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Found this plan on the web this evening.

Jim
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Old 02-12-2011, 05:36 PM
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Bill G
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Originally Posted by eliworm View Post
Found this plan on the web this evening.

Jim
That's my kind of plan. Several views, a block of foam, and have at it. I've been searching the web for model info also, and pasted a few more links in the first post of models found. So far, I haven't found any that are flying yet. One looked as if it was flying, until I read that it was Photo Shopped. The builder had plans for a speed 280 at the time.

I have thee retracts on their way now, and the wheels move from the down position to the retracted position. There were some things to determine, such as the control arm length needed to retract the wheels into the proper location. I'm trying to make the geometry as scale as possible, and it's not too far off. There are some limitations, as the track width is determined by the control arm length needed to retract the wheels into the proper location. The track width seems a bit narrower than scale. The geometry used is similar to what is shown on the Jetco plan, but the parts used are not. I need to start restocking hardware, as I've used up much of my interesting parts. It's good practice to buy interesting parts that you don't need at the time, but look as if they could be used for numerous applications. I used a Great Planes part for the spindle assembly that I bought years ago at a hobby shop when I was out of town, as my LHS stocks mostly Dubro hardware.

There are no pictures that I have found, which show the internal retract mechanism inside the fuse. However it is done, I doubt I would want to copy it however. What I have done so far is the easy part. Now to move on to making the retracts work. I've seen some interesting ideas on Grumman models, such as a servo modified as a 2-direction motor, used to drive a lead screw which moves a block up and down. The block is attached to the "MacPherson" struts. So far, none have been 100% practical, as the gear layouts as somewhat different.
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:07 PM
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It's really looking great Bill. The wheels will look just right on the model. I'm with you on the three view and foam attack by the way.
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Old 02-12-2011, 07:39 PM
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Great looking retracts there are some good ideas on this thread for retracts, maybe it might give you some ideas, hope that helps, Chellie

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59832
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:11 PM
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Hi Bill
Great choice
Heres some thing you may find of interest
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.co...-Stern/00.shtm
Cant wait to see more
Take care
Hank
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:20 AM
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Amazing, had to subscribe.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:29 AM
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Bill G
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Thanks for the comments all.

Hank, the small models are amazing. I came across another similar model. The details looked really great for a 1/8 scale model. It blew me away when I realized that it was a 1/72 model, with hand made details. Look at the pics under this modeler's page:
http://www.pwm.org.pl/viewtopic.php?t=155

Chellie the the first link that you posted is similar to what I will probably do.
This is a diagram by Phreakish:

From what I can see, in the wheels down position, the servo arm link is positioned as a locking knee, which is desirable as it does not load the servo. I was thinking along those lines, and then realized that I may be able to attach the arm that is linked to the MacPherson style strut, directly to the servo, using an extended servo arm. There are some issues that arise there, but I can probably be able to work them out:
1. Determine the extended and retracted postion of the MacPherson strut. This obviously includes deciding how long you want the strut to be, and what the effects of shortening or lengthening it will be. For me, if I can simply get past deciding on a strut length, then things may begin to happen. I've gotten better over time, in making decisions, versus tossing ideas around until the end of time.
2. Determine the length of the rotating arm needed to drive the strut to the extended and retracted postions . I've determined that, and at the same time ensured that it's travel path is acceptable. You can't have the strut popping through the side of the fuselage, as the wheels move up and down. Thanks to computerized radios, the radio can be programmed for additional servo travel, if needed.
3. All of the above is done while maintaining scale concerns. I would like to have the elongated servo arm attached to the strut, in roughly the same location as the full scale plane. Looking at photos, there is a link that is attached to the strut, which can be seen clearly. That's about all that can be seen clearly, but is all that is needed. I doubt I would replicate the remainder of the mechanism, even if I could see it.

After laying everything out, it does not look as if I can position the servo arm to get a "locking knee" effect, when extending the strut in the wheels down position. There are reasons for less than perfectly ideal geometry for a locking knee effect, as there is only so much room in the fuse. Other reasons are that I want the wheels to have the scale negative camber in the extended position, and obviously sit with the proper camber angle when retracted into the fuse. When retracted, the wheels sit flush against the fuse opening as closely as possible. That all pretty much determines the exact points where the strut link will need to be, in the extended and retracted positions.

With a less than perfectly ideal wheels down servo arm position, it would be good to know if the servo is strong enough to hold the gear down. A little bit of simple trig, making a few ideal assumptions will put you in the ball park. The strut can be treated as the wheel load vector, as it is basically attached to the same point as the axle. You can then use the angle of the strut to the vertical, with either sine or cosine functions to determine the force needed at the strut to servo arm link point, to keep the wheels extended. Lastly, the servo moment arm and the arm's offset angle to the strut can be used to determine servo torque needed. Assuming 15oz-in for the servo and a 20 degree servo arm to strut offset, it looks as if I should be fine. That all sounds like a bunch of nonsense, but it's good to have a ball park idea if you gear will not collapse under load, due to insufficient servo torque.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:37 AM
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a pivoting air cylinder might work for you. or an electric operated retract.

http://www.advantagehobby.com/?cat=691

http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com...px-am_en-26327




idea for the air cyl.

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Old 02-13-2011, 02:07 AM
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Old 02-13-2011, 03:43 AM
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As much as it would be nice to use something off the shelf, this app is far too custom to have much chance of using anything off the shelf, or even close. I'm also too poor to buy anything that I can make.

Chellie your links on Grumman style retracts do have some good information. I always wanted to build an F3F, and may have the motivation to do it someday, after all this. A sketch from one of the links is shown below, which is the direction I am leaning in. The use of 2 gears lit a bulb. I dug up some gears, and found 2 mating gears, and a larger driving gear, that may allow for the use of a single servo. Often the most practical ideas are also the simplest. I looked at another of Phreakishes sketches, which is a bit of a variation of the earlier sketch of his that I posted. What I may do different, is to drive one of the two gears in the sketch, with a gear directly attached to the servo shaft. You can drive either one of the 2 gears, as it makes no difference. The 2 gears in the sketch rotate in opposite directions, which allows for a single servo. The gears I have will give me a drive ratio of 1.13:1. Laying them out, it also appears that I will be able to get a close to ideal locking knee effect, along with being able to use the fixed gear center spacing, and make it all work and provide the desired strut end point positions. The concern I now have is that I will need 118% servo travel adjustment, to provide the needed travel range. Off top of head the transmitter will allow for 125%, so it's pushing close. I think I will go ahead and develop the idea. Another small difference from the sketch is that the arms linked to the MacPherson struts will not overlap. This is good, as they would otherwise have to be offset. On the other hand, I wish the geometry would allow for it, as I will have to slightly shave my fuse side keels to clear the strut travel path. It's not a problem though, as there will still be plenty of fuse side keel material remaining, and I can reinforce them by laminating more wood to them.

Two things I can do to provide some fine adjustment are to drill a series of holes into the arms attached to the gears, and to have adjustable struts which have already been planned for, with parts on hand.



Another slick idea in the links Chellie is this one:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=914630
If a lead screw with a steeper thread pitch was used, the retracts would work much faster. I believe a servo can be modified to work as a 2 direction motor, but removing the pot, or something similar to that. I've heard of folks buying brand new defective servos that worked that way. What I haven't heard of is a servo end stop device, that will stop a servo in one direction when that type of retract is deployed, but allow it to move in the other direction, after it hits the stop. This would probably be a complex device, as it would have to interpret the signal wire, and not just be a polarity switch.
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