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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 05-11-2010, 04:00 PM   #226
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Default E-Flite Retracts...Getting Around Dim D*m Issues

Originally Posted by rterhune View Post
Did you notice on Horizonhobby web site that while the pair of mains is ~$144 you can buy individual units for ~$50......
Robert,

Its difficult to tell in drawings but I have deviated from scale with respect to outrigger retracts in my inboard nacelles. Everything
going into the nacelle is not present in every illustration. An Eagle Tree flight recorder, retract, retract battery, Dynamax w/motor,
ESC, EDF batteries, scale tire and wheel are all tucked into and onto the nacelle's pylon insert blade.

I am holding off on compiling the laser cut guide for the blade until I have "rotating" E-flight retracts in my hands. Until it is in my hand,
it does not exist...as far as I am concerned.

Why use rotating retracts for outriggers...you just thought...

Reread the paragraph above that starts with Eagle Tree then imagine all the various sizes of these items and the relatively small
space into which they all go. (It is the accummulative weight of these items on the blade which brought me to redesign the wing :^)

The B-47's outrigger swings forward into the nacelle beneath EDF so I decided no one will notice at the last moment the tire did
a 90 degree rotation to snuggly fit in nacelle without forcing a change in dims.

You ask yourself...Ed why don't you have the rotating retracts in your hand? That's easy, because they are still not available from
Horizon nor are they on Jim Redman's for sale calendar. However, the non-rotating retract is...and you are correct its only $50 USD
for the retract by itself. However...!



Anyone considering the retract might want to look at what's in the complete $149.99 package. They still do not have a projected
date for availability of the rotating mains.


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Old 05-11-2010, 05:17 PM   #227
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Default 90mm, 110mm, or 120mm

Robert:

You asked me about the use of a 90mm EDF for this size EDF B-47 earlier. I responded why I initially chose Stu Maxwell's 110
then last month made a decision to move to the Dynamax.

Back in October the tip of the spear was Schubeler's and Maxwell's EDFs. Ironically these serve as a parity to the mid 80's when
the Viojett and Dynamax filled DF customer's wants and needs...static thrust or top end speed. Back in the day, you had either
but not necessarily both due to recip and the necessity to design a DF for narrow power bandwidths.

This hasn't changed except with respect to available hp resulting in higher volume and velocity of air passing through a DF has
changed radically...

Based "only" on YouTube videos, I came to a decision a StuMax 110 was an excellent choice because it was observed in an
Australian F9F Panther weighing 19+ pounds with flight performance exactly as perceived it should be for that weight.

Specifically, multiple final approaches which began too far out for the landing field showing the pilot needing to bring on power
to maintain or regain altitude, Stu's 110 did a "decent" job of ramping up to compensate.


Duration was seen as very close to my requirement when you consider the ratio of 1# thrust:1.62# flying weight when watching
the maneuvers being flown by the F9F Panther.

Move the clock forward to March/April when I made the StuMax 110 decision. You find me viewing all available videos in a search
for an EDF capable of sustaining a landing approach of a model close to 19# in weight. I watched the Australian video a couple of
hundred times (slow learner) counting through my anticipated approach time line.

Remember that exceptionally long, flat final approach? I need to sustain excellent 2/3 to 3/4 throttle setting thrust. That is what
brought me back to the Dynamax, its excellent thrust with the then Lil' Screamer's motor as a solution to the only real issue I have
with powering a 1/10.2 B-47E-IV.


I should have backed up to page one and restated this was originally an EvoJet 90 kero burning auto start project that accumulated
too much weight for its intended use. I had a narrow AUW margin of error. So, here we appeared on 12-10-2009 at 09:30 PM.

Consideration was made for multiple smaller diameter EDF, however I never saw a smaller EDF used in a par AUW nor even read of
one capable of thrust equal to that I witnessed during the critical final approach.

I was bowed over by the video of a 24+ pound F-15 with single Dynamax and Lil' Screamer motor in a less than appropriate throttle
and proper stick movement "instantly jump" and recover as if it were a sport model....not an EDF. I'm down around 29~30# sans
batteries.

That one video equated to an approach with something like 2/3 to 3/4 throttle to maintain gradual decent on a virtual level attitude
as illustrated on the previous page of this thread.

Its simpler than many try to make it to their $ advantage. How much air can you pull through a blade angle sweep at a given rpm,
against the clock. Nothing new, this has been "the" issue since we first began powered flight. You get into a lot of technical issues
with very little control or minimum effect at best. Its not a DYI try this and try that sand box at these price points!

Remember the goal is to sustain flight across a 10 to 11 minute flight round performing 7 prototypical maneuvers.

It is difficult to appreciate my issues unless you witness a less than 120" 36 degree swept wing with a tendency to dutch roll, and
so slippery it never experiences an approach step because of required angle of attack. My point of reference is the Tu-95 of George
Maiorana. Approach is almost identical even with tricycle gear.



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Old 05-11-2010, 06:36 PM   #228
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I understood your reason for the rotating retracts in the nacell, I was just pointing out the incongruency of a list price of 144 for a pair of retracts plus wire strut and axel, which you wouldn't be using anyway in your scale app, vs 50 each for the retract unit only. (I am also awaiting the rotating units to drop in my H9 corsair)

As far as the edf units I was thinking of a quartet of RCLander 90mm fans rated at between 3 and 3.2kg thrust which by your formula of 1.62:1 and the projected weight should work. Of course this then gets into another issue: where to put the batteries. If they wouldn't fit in the nacell then it may lead (no pun intended) to quite a distance between the esc and motor if they have to go in the fuse.

Why would you be concerned of sustaining a landing approach? Seems to me if you have enough power to fly the rest of the routine, a landing approach (power wise) should be a piece of cake, provided you aren't coming in on the last bit of your electrons.
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Old 05-26-2010, 05:01 PM   #229
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Default Always What Was...Not What Is...For Long







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Old 05-26-2010, 06:19 PM   #230
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Default Compositing




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Old 05-26-2010, 07:22 PM   #231
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Default Nu Nac





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Old 05-29-2010, 03:58 PM   #232
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Default Turning First...On The Way To Second... :)

As you can see, things continue to move forward...




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Old 05-29-2010, 04:41 PM   #233
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Default Sniffles Are Improving



That hole in the bottom is the cutout for the chin radome...aka ballast access.




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Old 05-29-2010, 05:25 PM   #234
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Default Outside ~ In


The inside story....looking forward



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Old 05-29-2010, 05:53 PM   #235
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Default Tip Of The Spear...




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Old 05-29-2010, 06:52 PM   #236
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Default Tip Of The Spear Perspectives

Far from being correct...its a start.



The periscopic bomb sight and its radar. Each is modeled as a seperate piece.


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Old 05-30-2010, 05:32 PM   #237
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Very Nice. Can you give a brief narative of what happens once you have the wire frames to your satisfaction?
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Old 05-31-2010, 01:31 AM   #238
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Default What Does All This Mean?

What you see is a starting point. Obviously some images are denser, aka more polygons per area than others. The more polygons
nets a more smooth surface or skin of the B-47 when CNC milled.

Next step is to edit images in 3D to increase the polygon density as much as possible. In most cases, if the section being edited
was created in a consistant density, then a simple "smoothing" process will render a more dense aka smooth surface.

I will increase the density as much as my software will permit. I will pass the file off to a resource whom will increase the density
as much as his software will permit...so on and so on until the skin is as smooth as possible at the final size required.

In my case, there are 3 different programs used for smoothing so I expect components will be extremely smooth when milled. Don't
forget, there is a balsa skin on the exterior of the model. The polystyrene surface can be less than perfect and it will still support a
smooth balsa, fiber glass and resin exterior skin.


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Old 05-31-2010, 01:34 AM   #239
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Default Critial Focused Steps

I am currently editing the final fuselage, inboard, and outboard nacelles, nose cockpit tub and the rear end with the 20mm cannon
turret of the B-47 to incorporate the Boeing B-47 E-IV drawing.

The editing is taking the Boeing multiple view drawing and combining it with other drawings to arrive at a new image to validate
using photographs. This on going process never ends. As you progress across the airframe it starts over again. Each line drawing
is brought into proper scale by comparison to photographs.

What, you thought somehow it magically was validated? :^) Unless you set aside the time to do this every step of the way....
forget about scratch building. You'll end up with an also ran. It takes no longer to build it right VS half way right.

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Old 06-03-2010, 12:10 AM   #240
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Default Higher Rez Outboard Nacelle

Richard had success increasing the polygon count (aka net smoothness) of the nose, inboard and outboard nacelles. Above are the
inboard items, below are a few views of the outboard nacelle sans the pylon.




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Old 06-03-2010, 12:18 AM   #241
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Default Outboard Nacelle Sans Pylon


Now...to edit the round into an oblong at the top where attached to pylon.



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Old 06-03-2010, 04:06 PM   #242
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Default Tubby Bits

A quick glance at unedited erection resources. Remember the canopy is already in hand as are multiple components for the cockpit.
What remains is displacing Styrene to permit what is in hand to fit into the appropriate space (hole) in the nose. This is much better
than trying to carve it out by hand.



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Old 06-03-2010, 04:34 PM   #243
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Default Perspective References Are Important

Resource (documentation) is extremely important to your project. Seriously, all too often people do not take the required time to
gather documentation. They seem to think in terms of the way a model will look on the "outside" when they think documentation.

Too often people scoff and jump to use this or that without auditing "all" of what they do collect. ???what is auditing??? No its not
the cost of the documentation. Its comparison of each resource of a given area on the plane to all other documentation you collected
to assure the documentation is as accurate a representation as possible.

If you have followed this build from page/screen one (1) you observed consequences of three audits. As the power system was
resolved, the size/aka scale of the project changed. Accommodations were made for each power system component. This could not
have occurred if I had not collected a large number of photos and six line art of the pylon and nacelle viewed from no less than the
side, bottom, top, front and rear. If you go back and count you will find no less than 8 perspectives shared in this thread. There are
at least another 8 to 10 I did not post.

Remember this is proof the shape and arrangement on the model matches that of the 1:1. Matters not what it is, use the documentation
as a stall or tie breaker amidst inconsistant information. There is a ramp/walkway alongside the cockpit stations. The images show structure
detail that does matter when compared to an assumption made by an artist. Photo documentation is extremely important.


Note in the above image pair you see how a simple review of a photo permits you to focus on exactly what left hand side of a B-47
cockpit looks like observed from above or below. While walkway is not necessarily going to seen or included in detail... there are other
areas on the model which are going to be reviewed.



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Old 06-03-2010, 04:49 PM   #244
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Default To Assume Is To Build In Error



After reviewing photo documentation relative to this line art...what is too often considered accurate, is seen now as simple errors.
While it is true judges use competitor provided documentation...it would be impossible to get away with showing cockpit resources
without errors being observed...and points beginning to tumble.

My point is you should begin to appreciate you can't trust what you find. Do not assume it accurate if it is a CAD image. The person
who drew the above apparently used a plastic model as resource. He told me he never had an accurate line art without contraditions.

Just in what you observe on this single page...there are hundreds of errors...each of which has to be edited out before this becomes
a flying model.



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Old 06-07-2010, 05:54 PM   #245
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Default Bits & Pieces

Getting to a "point" where assembly sequence has to be planned. If you recall...way back at beginning of this project there is an
illustration of an internal laminated diamond inside middle portion of the B-47 fuselage.

Fuselage front and rear have laminated internal triangles bridged to the center by an internal truss. This permits break down for
transport and maintenance. Drawing parting points shown have changed...it is post for illustration only.


To hot wire the diamond, upper and lower triangles the nose has to have a parting point.

The parting line at rear is ahead of the 20mm turret close to the rudder post. I hope to sleeve turret ball to permit motion.



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Old 06-18-2010, 03:44 AM   #246
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Default Rascal Release Documentation

Wow, with all the people watching this thread I am really amazed there are no more inquiries than have been posted.



This is when delivery of intercontinental weapons changed. ICBM's were rapidly deployed to deliver what a man carrying aircraft
could not. The size of the "Rascal" was huge...

Length: 9.74 m (31 ft 11.5 in)
Wingspan: 5.09 m (16 ft 8.3 in)
Diameter: 1.22 m (4 ft)
Weight: 6120 kg (13500 lb)
Speed: Mach 1.6
Range: 160 km (100 miles)
Propulsion: Bell XLR67-BA-1 liquid-fueled rocket; 53.3 kN (12000 lb)
Warhead: W-27 thermonuclear (2 MT)







Here are some interesting GAM-63 resources:







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Old 06-18-2010, 04:49 AM   #247
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[QUOTE=Flite-Metal;728329]Wow, with all the people watching this thread I am really amazed there are no more inquiries than
have been posted. QUOTE]

ED,
Building that which has not been built before can be a lonely task. You appear to have covered everything so that nothing is left to inquire about.

Keep up the great work!

George

Oh, one thing, what hapened to your Spock avatar on your last two posts?
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:07 PM   #248
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Lonesome George...

You are right, I am trying to show everything along the way. Things have slowed down a bit with my reop of the wings after Sam
reduced the flap footprints. He thinks he'll finish up the tube-in-tube mockup this weekend. Hope to show video of it.

I am digitizing the Boeing engineered drawing this weekend. I have to send Bob and John the new nacelle and nose drawings so
the original work-ups can be edited. At pace everything was moving before...right now it feels like a snail's pace.

How's the C-133 coming along?


Ed Clayman
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:48 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
You are right, I am trying to show everything At pace everything was moving before...right now it feels like a snail's pace.

How's the C-133 coming along?

Hey, there's that avatar I long to see

Just got back on the C-133 after three weeks of interuptions caused by indoor foamy Red Bull Air Races, son's Prom/Graduation and daughters visit from California.
I've finally got the LEs on the wing and hope to have wing mounted to fuse by next week so I can start installing the nacelles.

Sometimes progress is a bunny and then at other times it's a turtle.

George
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:30 PM   #250
Flite-Metal
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Default C-133 Atlas ICBM Hauler


For those unaware, George's latest project (about two years at this point) is a little C-133 Atlas ICBM hauler...

C-133 Prototype
Wing Span 1796
Length 1576
Height 489
Prop 180

C-133 Model (1:16.5)
Wing Span 129.36 10.78 ft
Length 113.4 9.45 ft
Height 35.1 2.92 ft
Prop 180 13.09
Wing Area 1481 sq in 10.28 sq ft

Below photo is a 1:1 model print of the C-133 sitting proped up on George's work bench.
Hanging above and behind is a portion of the Tu-95 Bear fuselage resting for the winter.


After plugs were hot-wired from foam fiber glass fuselage components were molded.





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