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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 07-19-2010, 07:53 PM   #276
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Default Tank Drop Documentation Needed...

Hircflyer,

I am considering dropping tanks with parachute during a down and dirty pass. I have no point of reference for drop tank parachute
aside from confirmation text on tank pix stating the chute presence.

I am permitted a written first person description for type and method of deployment. I can imagine they were full blown chutes
considering the thin wall design of tanks and damage if only drogue style were used. I have seen video of tank broken down and
reinstalled during maintenance by four crewmen.

Would you be willing to create a text visual description of the deployment with the style of chute within it so I can replicate? This
to define approximate diameter and number/length of lines.


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Old 07-19-2010, 09:10 PM   #277
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Default

Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Hircflyer,

I am considering dropping tanks with parachute during a down and dirty pass. I have no point of reference for drop tank parachute aside from confirmation text on tank pix stating the chute presence.

I am permitted a written first person description for type and method of deployment. I can imagine they were full blown chutes considering the thin wall design of tanks and damage if only drogue style were used. I have seen video of tank broken down and reinstalled during maintenance by four crewmen.

Would you be willing to create a text visual description of the deployment with the style of chute within it so I can replicate? This to define approximate diameter and number/length of lines.
sure I will work on it tonite...

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Old 07-19-2010, 09:39 PM   #278
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I know the main braking chute was 32' in diameter and was a ribbon chute to permit high pass-thru of air to prevent it being ripped. The
drogue chute was 16' diameter and assumed to be a high pass-thru chute as well to permit the nose to stay pointed where intended vs.
effect of cross wind.

I have not found any definition for chute structure...was it a full canopy chute or vented top?

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Old 07-20-2010, 12:03 AM   #279
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The drogue chute was called there approach chute and it was deployed on landing approach for the sole purpose of allowing the aircraft to maintain approach speed with high power setting on the engines.

The J47 was such a slow engine to accelerate that it was necessary to have the approach chute out to slow the aircraft with the chute while keeping the engines at a higher power setting....because if it became necessary to go around the aircraft would impact before the engines would spool up...on a missed approach the chute would be dumped and the aircraft would be able to accelerate.

The chute on the external tanks as I recall was only about 6 feet in diameter its only purpose was after the tail cone explosive bolts fired the chute was spring loaded to pop out and when inflated pulled on the lanyards which were attached to the locking dogs , they released and tank fell away. The wing had a probe which hung down which had a notch in it which fitted into the tank lock mechanism
The chute was not designed to save the tank just release it from the wing, tanks were expendable. After all it was expected that it was going to be a one way ride. Just like the ATO rack which was dumped in the ocean.

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Old 07-20-2010, 12:40 AM   #280
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Default Translating The Dutch Roll

With respect to piloting my B-47 the drogue chute offsets effect of yaw during a protracted approach with throttles at 2/3 to 3/4
to permit a virtual level landing attitute. My approaches are going to be close to 200 feet long in slow decent from 8 feet to touch
down.

Though I have instant thrust with electric vs. using the pair of EvoJets, aka Hammers I was originally going to use, the issue with
the B-47 being too clean carries over to every model that has flown. Joe Martin said his D suffered horribly from it and that was at
80" w/s.

There is not enough rudder throw to offset induced yaw / crab which begins at onset of ground effect. The Tu-95 suffers from the
same Dutch Roll. George's Tu-95 Bear is a virtual parity to my B-47E-IV.

Dave Pinegar said approach transition was plagued by the Dutch Roll...however George said Dave tends to pull throttle back as he
approaches touch down... just the opposite of what I must do with my B-47.


Dutch Roll:
(USAF Edwards Flight Research Definition)

Dutch roll is a combination of yawing and rolling motion that is characteristic of "all" swept wing aircraft. Disturbances about the yaw
axis of an airplane will result in disturbances about the roll axis. This is caused by the dihedral effect of the wings (roll due to yaw).
On a swept wing airplane, this effect is due to two causes.

First, when a wing with positive dihedral (tips higher or lower than roots) is yawed the forward wing is at a higher angle of attack than
the trailing wing. This results in a differential lift situation which causes a rolling moment. If the wing is also swept, the forward wing
will also cause more rolling moment than the other wing due to the greater moment arm of its center of lift as well as the increased lift.

This rolling produces sideslip due to roll only. This sideslip on a wing with dihedral causes a rolling moment tending to lift the down wing.
The net result is a pendulum-like motion similar to the rolling motion of a Dutch ice speed-skater on the frozen canals of Holland, hence
the name "Dutch Roll". Loss of directional control can occur if divergent Dutch roll is not properly damped. This is one of the reasons for
the development of yaw dampers on modern day jets.

I have a brake chute that will deploy at touchdown which will offset the lack of rudder and slow things along with the rear brakes.

The issue is literally in a cross axis attitude with inline landing gear mains deployed and outriggers, one in each inboard nacelle.



Below is the approach and go around pattern from the pilot manual...

What I am interested in is the wing tank release with a description of the parachute style and relative size. I imagine with tanks as
light weight as they were its a 10' to 12' diameter chute with a full canopy and no ribbon slits.

I have another illustration showing the approach training go arounds with constantly deployed approach chutes.




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Old 07-20-2010, 04:33 PM   #281
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Default B-47 Dutch Roll Approach

You should be able to see why I continually say the landing approach and touch down are the most challenging maneuvers for my
project. Maneuver was responsible for the loss of many crews at the far end of the runway until the approach and touch down
sequence of events was fully understood.


The Dutch Roll is clearly visible in this film footage shot from the top of the vertical fin. I extracted and created the animated .gif to
permit me to gain a better "feel" for over coming what has been "the" issue with previous r/c models of the B-47 when the pilots "flared"
instead of landing virtually level.


To offset this consequence the throttle is brought to positive lift and drogue chute deployed pulling nose back to single heading. The
B-47 is flown onto the deck similar to an aircraft carrier landing is performed.


The drogue chute is anticipated to "pop" just before I cross the "X" at the runway threashold. I have a full size airport to practice this
for a long...long time before ever approaching the X on the North end of Bomber Field's 750'...


Your input is welcomed, especially with respect to your experience with a large super clean swept wing landing....aka B-52's have
exactly the same issue except both inline mains are articulated with rudder permitting a crabbed landing with gear aligned in a straight
line regardless of where the nose is pointed.



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Old 07-20-2010, 11:05 PM   #282
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As a side note regarding the approach chute/ slow accelerating J47s, we had incident on a very dark night at Plattsburg.
We had a 11,500 foot runway where at one end the concrete was raised up at about six feet above the surrounding terrain, aircraft came in low and slow and for reasons never made public the aircraft impacted the 6 foot overhang with the aft main gear...the impact was severe enough to shear off the aft main gear and the tail assy, leaving the aircraft on the fwd gear and the two outrigger to roll on.
The Aircraft Commander not realizing he had left half the aircraft on the over run pushed the throttles foreword and attempted to take off.
The aircraft started to accelerate but then it lost directional control and started to spin and from this point it was all over. It was unknown how many revolutions the aircraft made as it continued down the runway, but every time it spun a piece or two would fly off. The aircraft spun the complete length of the runway and finally stopped in a snow bank at the opposite end....all that was left was the forward fuselage (cockpit) it lay at about a 45 degree angle, it wasn't even dented... and no fire. Amazing was the fact the 3 man crew opened the canopy and jumped down with out a scratch, dizzy perhaps but completely unmarked..the run way was closed while we went out and picked all the pieces , engines , wings, all the aircraft except for the cockpit was on the runway! Another interesting fact was after the investigation we went down and picked up the fuselage and moved it over by the A&E squadron maintenance shops where they set it up on railroad ties and plugged in the external power and used it as a trainer. When I left several years later it was still being used by maintenance.

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Old 07-21-2010, 12:14 AM   #283
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Hircflyer, that was a great story (thanks!). I notice the PT-19 in your avatar. Which kit is that? If you made it from scratch I am doubly impressed.

"Dum spiro spero." (While I breathe, I hope).
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:44 AM   #284
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I enjoyed your story...however I don't consider it words of encouragement... :^)

With the full size airport to practice on I'll have ample opportunity to settle in to a routine...hopefully without similar consequence
on "far end"of Bomber Field's runway.


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Old 07-21-2010, 04:09 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Voyager2lcats View Post
Hircflyer, that was a great story (thanks!). I notice the PT-19 in your avatar. Which kit is that? If you made it from scratch I am doubly impressed.
Naa I am not that good a Dynaflight Kit

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Old 07-21-2010, 04:18 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
I enjoyed your story...however I don't consider it words of encouragement... :^)

With the full size airport to practice on I'll have ample opportunity to settle in to a routine...hopefully without similar consequence on "far end"of Bomber Field's runway.

Sorry, didn't intend to rain on your parade...jusr relating what happens when your engines are slow to spool.

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Old 07-21-2010, 04:19 AM   #287
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you should not have that problem with the electrics

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Old 07-21-2010, 03:01 PM   #288
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Default

You are one of the few who understand the issue. While I joke about it all the time, I have had this as my baseline issue to overcome
from the beginning. BB's comment was interesting... he said don't worry about it go ahead and land at 75 mph.

While landing at 75 mph is not my concern...its all about stopping in under 750'. My B-47' has brakes only on its rear strut to make sure
it tracks straight. If the brakes were on front and rear strut it would turn if front was applied with greater resistance than the rear.


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Old 07-21-2010, 10:28 PM   #289
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Scale supersonic landing??? Vvvvvery iiiiiiiiiinteresting. Just work the problem. You will acertain the right power setting that will allow the jet to settle in at the correct aoa and decent rate that you are looking for, and that (what ever it is) will determine the speed you will land at.
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:55 AM   #290
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Default Supersonic ? ? ?

Supersonic? B-47E's touched down between 130~145 kph when depleted of fuel. I anticipate the model to land between 35 to 55
mph. There are issues related to heading which are more of a concern than speed. With full size airport available speed is not as great
a concern as it was in the beginning.

New electric locomotion for my mains are coming to market soon. Actuators will drive most of the Robart familky of retracts. No, these
are not French...;^) I received an email from Horizon advising my electric outrigger retracts will be Stateside next week. In Lloyd's Boeing
B-47 Stratojet on page 223 I found out the outriggers on the 1:1 were in fact operated electrically. Motor was tucked up inside the
rearend bottom fillet of the nacelle.

"Age Of Aquarius" is heard in the background as all B-47E components come into alignment with the stars and Mars. Its been interesting
how all these components have been found and not having to be made from scratch.


Well so much for my 60's recollections...back to reality.

I welcome the contributions of anyone with B-47 wing tank parachute images...


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Old 07-22-2010, 02:55 AM   #291
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Default D'tank...D'tank...D'tank

Hircflyer...or anyone else...

From your collection of service items do you have anything that would contribute documentation of the drop of the wing tanks in
addition to your description of the chute size and style? I do not have any line of seperation data. Did main and stabilizing pylon
remain or was everything released from beneath the wing? I've never seen a wing without the tanks wherein the pylons remained...

I can not imagine pylons and tank being dropped at the same time. Pylons are just too sharp and the light weight of the tank when
empty would mean it would travel rearward when yanked by the parachute when released...those sharp pylons poise a threat to the
wings.


There is a definate forward tank down angle compared to wing incidence and engine nacelles.


The air against the tank in this static position is going to push it down and back when the chute pops. I still don't feel comfortable
with the pylons going with the tank when released. Below is the front view of the tank and pylons






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Old 07-22-2010, 03:45 PM   #292
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I spent hours filtering through 700+ pages of B-47 pilot and crew manuals and never found reference to the wing tanks. It has to
be a supplimental document. I did find the pylons retained without the tank... That photo is all I needed for proof. I know the
1,695 gallon tanks were built by Ryan Aeronautical in San Diego to Boeing specs. They were first installed on B-BW 49-2642 for eval.


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Old 07-22-2010, 08:10 PM   #293
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I was just refering to BB's comment about landing at 75mph: 75 X 10.2 scale = 765mph. You won't be landing at 55 mph either... not with your target wing loading. 55mph should be on the high side of 1/2 throttle clean.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:00 PM   #294
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Default Realistic Expectation Of Speed

At my anticipated AUW of 33# I don't expect to be any slower than that. I can not afford to get below effective rudder control.
Throttle is expected to be at 2/3 to 3/4 before blade pitch brings positive lift back during final approach.

Landing speed, aka minimum controllable airspeed, is more an element of maintaining my heading with "minimum" lateral control at
slow speed. The B-47's swept wing has laminar flow issues. As you move outward beyond the virtual wing fence of outboard pylon
the envelope closes "behind the aileron".

Such was the case with Joe Martin's 80" w/s. Joe agreed with Stu Maxwell in that I should use 25% up and 80% down differential.
I will utilize turbulators to dirty up the air in front of the ailerons as was done on the 1:1. Joe said he used 80% rudder with 20%
aileron until he ran out of air speed for rudder to effect heading.


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Old 07-23-2010, 04:19 PM   #295
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Default Is What You Saw...Not Really Correct? :)





To better understand DSS / Maneuver Realism Speed the graphical expression of 1:1 airframe speed against a % of 1:1 physical
scale is provided in Ken Walter's article within http://www.ScaleAero.com. Ken's full article provides an excellent competitor
resource to remind us our realism-in-flight score is most effected by turn and bank angles...not the actual speed you saw it flown.


Getting your mind wrapped around this often seems to be more like mind warping than otherwise...but you have to take it all in...
to grow. http://www.scaleaero.com/maneuver_realism_speed4.htm

This information is also outlined in the DSS Table for typical maneuvering speeds and model scale factor (K factor). I have also
included typical aircraft class (family) examples for additional general comparisons.





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Old 07-24-2010, 06:29 AM   #296
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Great build description for a challenging project. Always thought the B-47 was the best looking bomber of any type, jet or prop. Growing up, I'd sometimes see them flying fairly low over my home town. Once, even saw one trying to refuel from a KB-50. The 47 was at a fairly high angle of attack, and I had the impession the KB was in a shallow dive. Last year I finally broke down and bought the MAN plans for the XB-47D.

Shortly after starting Basic at Lackland in Jan 1964, I remember a Commander's call having a newsreel film showing the retirement of the last B-47, with I think it's final flight to Wright-Pat. Then in early 67, at my first PCS base, getting picked up for night shift outside the mess hall and being taken to the AGE shop along the coastal road, not the normal service road parallel to the main runway. At the shop, we were briefed on security requirements, and told there was NO RB-47D on runup pad 3 alongside the runway, ALL B-47s were retired, and did not exist on the AF inventory, we would not talk about the non-existant plane with anybody, including each other, we would NOT take any photos, we would be expected to service any equipment located outside the rope circle around the area that was not occupied by the non-plane, and entering the roped area could result in the offender being shot before being questioned. It was also interesting to be driving down the taxiway sometimes and not see the non-existant 20 mm stinger not tracking your vehicle. Or not seeing that beauty climbing out, no rato, at about a 15 degree angle after about a 6000' non-run.

The plane has a very unusual potential operation for the flight demo. The full size B-47s were set up to do the bomb toss. Think of legitimately doing a Immelmann with a 6-engined bomber. When the aviation editor of (Pop Science?) went on a flight for the mag, he got to ride through a practice toss. During it, one of the flight crew told him the fun part was that during the majority of the manuever, the plane was in a condition of aileron reversal because of the flexibility of the wings. If the toss wasn't precisely entered, past a certain point, no control correction before the top of the 1/2 loop was entered, was possible, because about any control input would be wrong. I believe an article on the B-47 in the Smithsonian's Aviation History also mentioned this and that if the entry speed wasn't just right, the wings could experience destructive flutter..
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:41 PM   #297
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Default B-47's Extended Timeline

50+,

Yes the B-47 served as the test bed for many of the B-52 hardware and electronic components as well as its "weather" related
duties collecting radiation samples. There was one which had a huge jet engine attached to its side for evaluation. I believe it was
a GE Canadian engine eval.

I have not disclosed my two flight plans, one of which includes the LABS. Earlier I posted images illustrating the high and low LABS
flight plans. The entire LABS maneuver was a "ride" for the pilot and co-pilot because it was a computer controlled function. The
pilot initiated the maneuver after crossing the I.P. then monitored the airspeed and angles through the maneuver.

While some may scoff thinking computers were not around at the time of the B-47, they have been around in various physical
comfigurations for a long, long time. What do you think the Norden bomb sight was...

Fire control system managing 16" battleship guns...I was fortunate to have sat before the fire control computer in the USS Texas
during a tour of the ship. Its is about 25% the size of a pool table and at the center of a huge communications receiving point high
above deck in the crows nest, companion ships, air and land reporting of fire and effect. One was located in each of the turrets
onboard and I was told in a fire control center deep within the ship.



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Old 07-24-2010, 05:47 PM   #298
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Default Enlarged XB-47 Recommended

Are you going to build the XB-47D? I have documentation which may be of use to you. It would be better to increase the size to
at least 65" w/s.


Mike Potter and his Boeing XB-47D built from M.A.N. plan below.



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Old 07-24-2010, 11:33 PM   #299
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Default

Sorry I missed your post about the LABS. This morning, I guess I just looked at the first couple pages, then skipped to 11.

As far as those computers, it was amazing what we were able to do with basic mechanical analog computers. I believe the Iowa class battleships still used the original WW-II computers for fire control on the 16" guns, and maybe even the 5" guns, in the Gulf war. Adequate accuracy, immune to EMP or power supply problems, and could be taught to an operator in a very short time.

I'm looking forward to seeing this project come together into a flying model.
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Old 07-25-2010, 02:03 AM   #300
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Default B-47 1/10.2th Scale, Boeing Stratojet...Phase II

B-47 1/10.2th Scale, Boeing Stratojet...In The Beginning

This thread will close after the CAD and CNC milling are worked through. The next phase will have an appropriate title...

The next step is design of the diamond truss. The truss supports the three fuselage sections, the wing, and the fore and aft main landing gear.


The top portion of the diamond truss has an inner truss providing a lock for cantilever of the spar blade spanning truss into wing spar pocket.

The laser cut diamond truss is carbon fiber vail laminated. As is stated all along this thread, there will be a DVD available with all the resources
for those who want to build this B-47E-IV.


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