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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 07-25-2010, 03:46 AM   #301
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Default Thread Closure

Hi Ed!

Can't you leave the thread open so all of us will have a chance to look thru all your work?

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 07-25-2010, 03:58 AM   #302
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Dave,

I have not asked...but I assume there is a limit to the number of entries each thread will tolerate. I envisioned moving from "In The Beginning"
to the next phase in a new thread. I would like to keep it all together if possible...however I don't want to take anything for granted with
respect to WattFlyer's server config...this thread has 302 posts.

The other issue is my intended step by step is diluted by people leap froging across inportant data and not following the entire process. My
intent is to share a degree of scratch building...not as a know-it-all but to share the process by which projects are managed in an orderly
fashion...step by step to completion. This more or less to illustrate the consequences of not managing a project step by step... I would
hope that is obvious.

Viewers need to look across their projects before purchasing a pile of wood or a "kit". Managing the mechanics of the structure is simple once
you take the time to "see" what stares you in the face. No rocket science in play...only observation and simple learning. After all, if this were
difficult I could not do it. Rest assured, I intend this thread to be a resource after all the time I have put into it... ;^)

XPS, Extruded Polystyrene foam is an under utilized resource for scale modeling. XPS presents a safe to work with medium with tremendous
strength to weight/mass ratio. The more people who come to understand how to work with this resource, the better scale modeling will be
because cost of a project is extremely low.

Vested hot wired foam laminated (male molded) with .6/.7 ounce to the sq yard fiber glass cloth and carbon fiber vail yields a perfect pallet
from which to model a scale replica.


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Old 07-25-2010, 03:09 PM   #303
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Not to be intrusive, but as far as post limits go, there are threads in the "foamies" sections with 2000+ entries. I am only assuming, and we know what that leads to, that you don't have to worry yet about the number of entries.

I have read this from the first post and find your techniques and designs quite intriguing.

Bob
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Old 07-25-2010, 04:13 PM   #304
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Bob,

You are not intruding... Thanks for the heads up on the server overhead. Dave, there you have it.... I'll leave it here and
simply edit the leading title of post one to reflect how many stages there are as I progress.

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Old 07-25-2010, 04:15 PM   #305
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Don't let post count be a deterrent Ed, if you want to separate threads for creative and organizational purposes that's totally up to you.

Like many other lurkers, I'm enjoying the thread plus the nuggets of aviation history and first hand accounts coming out in it.

Take care and thanks for posting at WattFlyer!!

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Old 07-25-2010, 04:21 PM   #306
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Don,

Thanks...I'm glad to see the lurkers coming to the surface and contributing to the project with real world experiences as well as
additional documentation for those interested in building a B-47. Its growing into what I envisioned as a B-47 community. The
same happened with the building of George Maiorana's Tu-95. His thread followers reached into Russia...

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Old 07-25-2010, 06:05 PM   #307
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Ed, I have really enjoyed your B-47 thread. The detail and contributions of other posters make it very enjoyable reading. Unfortunately, you are correct about posts can make it difficult to follow the technical and/or building aspects of the thread. I don't know if the community moderator may have some proposition on providing a redacted version when you are finished and then locking that one. That might be a solution.

Bob

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Old 07-25-2010, 07:20 PM   #308
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Default Herding George Jetson's Cats

Bob,
Everytime I see your handle I am reminded of one I used to use relative to project management...


I'm going to leave thread open to future inquiries after the B-47's ROG.


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Old 07-25-2010, 08:32 PM   #309
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Ed, too funny! LOL. The cat herding commercial is hysterical. Incidentally, my younger brother works for EDS.

Bob

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Old 07-29-2010, 08:55 PM   #310
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Flite,

If you are concerned about Dutch roll then far and away the easiest and best solution is to fit a yaw damper. A simple heli gyro on the rudder is all that's needed.

Also going back to post #280
First, when a wing with positive dihedral (tips higher or lower than roots) is yawed the forward wing is at a higher angle of attack than the trailing wing
I take it the 'or lower' edit in blue is yours? I'm sure it would not have been in the original text because it's incorrect.
Tips lower than the root is negative dihedral (anhedral). With tips lower than root the effect is opposite to that described. When an anhedral wing is yawed the forward wing is at a lower angle of attack.. Not higher.

This explains why anhedral is very often used on swept wing jets. Anhedral offsets the 'dihedral like' effect of the wing sweep and so prevents excessive lateral stability (and thus reducing Dutch roll).

The B-47 had lots of anhedral when on the ground but most or maybe all of this disappeared as the wings flexed in flight.
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Old 07-29-2010, 09:48 PM   #311
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Default Dutch Rock 'n "Roll"

JetPlaneFlyer,

"higher or lower than" was my insert because just "before" ROG each wing from the inboard edge of the aileron out to the tip lifts
to a positive angle. This is easily seen in the Tu-95's takeoff roll before ROG. It was surprising to see the wing tips rise within the
first 150 ft. I will post the video here shortly.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/FliteM...d%20Flight.wmv

The minimum amount of rudder throw and cross section available is suspect to minimum effectiveness period, much less with a gyro.
I need to check F4C guidelines to confirm a gyro can be used. I suspect not. George's Tu-95 had more rudder area than this B-47
and a gyro somewhat tamed that animal. You can see below the difference in rudder between the two at comparable scale. Prop
wash helped the Tu-95 as well.



You can see the size differences comparing the red Tu-95 rudder leading edge to the Blue B-47 rudder leading edge.



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Old 07-30-2010, 08:56 PM   #312
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Yaw dampers generally work with tiny movements of the rudder because they arrest the yaw before it develops. I'd bet on the Tu-95 you cant even see the yaw damping rudder working in flight.

So rudder size really shouldnt be an issue.

Steve
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:39 PM   #313
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Default Yaw.....nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn ;)

Steve,

Dutch Roll concern is only during my protracted approach to level touch down with the bicycle mains. Normal flight is of
no concern. The Tu-95 Dutch Roll issue was only a concern during final approach as well. Dave Pinegar did not drive the
Tu-95 onto the runway. He typically chopped to little more than an idle during the last eight feet.

The 1:1 B-47 Dutch Roll is exaggerated. Boeing integrated an internal air operated yaw dampener on ailerons, elevator,
and rudder. Aileron differential is virtually 80% up and 20% down.

Back in 1962~1964 Joe Martin flew the largest r/c B-47 built to date.


Joe's XD was prop powered. He had major issues due to a lack of effective aileron (check out the size of his ailerons
and relied on his undisclosed amount of rudder throw.... The majority of his landing description can be observed in the
image below... Gotta love it when its the top one.


Joe nearly distroyed his XD on several occassions.


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Old 07-30-2010, 10:13 PM   #314
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Threads on Dutch Roll and yaw dampers has jarred a memory.....do you know the B-47 had a yaw string?

Yup, 24 inches of parachute cord mounted in front of the windshield....simple but affective....another item we installed in 1958 was the "last resort bomb sight". Not much written material on that item.

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Old 07-30-2010, 10:26 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Hircflyer View Post
another item we installed in 1958 was the "last resort bomb sight". Not much written material on that item.
Blob of gum on the windshield?
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:30 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Aileron differential is virtually 80% down and 20% up.
Interesting.. I bet the full size B-47 was high workload to fly.. But wouldnt the aileron differential be the other way? i.e. more up travel than down to prevent adverse yaw?

That's the way it's done on every other plane anyway.. Could explain the lack of aileron authority on the model if he did have it set that way
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:12 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Blob of gum on the windshield?
Not a bad guess, actually it was a a post made of bronze that was shaped like a Christmas tree, hard to do on keyboard..mounted just forward of where the the yaw string was attached on the nose, and a 3 inch diameter red circle painted on the inside of the windshield with a red dot in center....and it was called..." the last resort bomb sight" and that was the official name...it was put in during that time when someone figured out that if they had to go do their thing there won't be nothing to come to home to anyway...and then we had the Cuban missile thing..

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Old 07-31-2010, 04:01 AM   #318
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Default Differential Aileron %

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Interesting.. I bet the full size B-47 was high workload to fly.. But wouldnt the aileron differential be
the other way? i.e. more up travel than down to prevent adverse yaw? That's the way it's done on every other plane anyway.. Could
explain the lack of aileron authority on the model if he did have it set that way
Actually, I reversed the %. I should have stated 80% up with 20% down. Joe failed to place turbulators ahead of ailerons to break up
flow so ailerons would be more effective. I will use Plastistrut right angle styrene ahead of the aileron in the pattern indicated on Boeing's
drawings.


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Old 07-31-2010, 04:45 AM   #319
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I remember Jimmie Stewart in Strategic Air Command sitting in the pilot seat of a B-47 getting ready for engine start. Just as the canopy starts moving forward, he calls out something like "Canopy coming forward" to warn the crew to duck their heads (pilot included).
. I just remembered this last night while I was watching a DVD about modern jet fighter aces, and while mugging for the camera, an Israeli pilot had the rim of his Mirage canopy catch the top of his helmet and push his head down between his shoulders.
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Old 07-31-2010, 01:29 PM   #320
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The other evening I was watching "Top 10 Bombers" I have seen it before but after reading this thread I had a bit more interest. They talked about the B-29, #6 or 7) then the TU-95, The curly headed English sounding "historian" proclaimed that the USSR had used captured B-29s as a design basis. The next Bomber was a B-47, it sure looked a whole lot more like the design of the TU-95 than the B-29 ever did. Just makes you wonder what his field of history is or if he only reads the cue cards.

Just some useless trivia to pass the time.

Later,
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Old 07-31-2010, 05:43 PM   #321
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Default Swept Wing Knowledge Base

Bob,

There is a foo-pa in that documentary's time-line...typical talking head production... B-29's forced to land in the Eastern most USSR
were reverse engineered to create Tupelov's Tu-4 "Bull". German research and researchers relative to swept wings found themselves
herded into Mikoyan-Gurevich and Tupelov's works while Allies with greater resouces corraled others in Huntsville, AL focused on the
non-reuse technologies.

The Tu-95 and B-47 are mirrored results of German swept wing research. Boeing fought the use of swept wings for many of the reasons
being discussed in this thread recently. Lack of power to overcome consequences accompanying a super clean airframe with swept wings.
Earlier in this thread I covered all the issues with Boeing illustrations and photos taken as they addressed all these issues in wind tunnel tests.

This video does a decent job of explaining how Boeing made best use of the "information" as did Tupelov. Remember the overall lack of
thurst in a jet engine at the time was "the" issue.


Here is an excellent animation of the perfect B-47 protracted approach. Though it is an animated video it follows the 1:1 landing protocol
in all but the parachute release. This would have been an "empty" approach. Note there is virtually no flare.




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Old 07-31-2010, 06:35 PM   #322
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Default Two Canopy Opening Methods

Previously I referenced the two canopy motion methods. The canopy moved as an attempt to vent the interior with its vacuum
tube technology which rapidly raised the temperatures to extreme. This video clip shows a clear view of the minimum canopy
config.


In the Jimmy Stewart Strategic Air Command film there are two segments showing the canopy's rear most point on the minimum
movement version. The canopy literally moved rearward only about a foot or so and the was front tilted by an arm attached to the
canopy track and airframe just behind the pilot.

As the canopy track reached maximum rearward limit it caught an arm which lifted it the height of the arm and swung rearward
to a rearward lock point. Access to the cockpit by a ground crew from outside the aircraft was minimum at best.

The modified clamshell canopy provided the most rearward motion and it sat at a higher angle. The "sliding canopy" stayed attacned
to the rains and slid rearward with an overhang. In either case there was minimum opening.


As you can see there was barely room for ground crews to access anything in the cockpit. Service access was the same as that for
flight crews...climb an access door ladder. The non-clam shell canopy had even less clearance.

For a brief period just before the B-47E the ejection seats were "removed". What a confidence stretch it must have presented
the crew at that time.




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Old 07-31-2010, 07:11 PM   #323
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Before we get too far downstream from the discussion of the Tu-4 and Tu-4AEW... Is anyone interested in purchasing either or
both of George's Tu-4's? This to include all support items required for charging. If interested, Click here to view specificcations.
http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/George/for_sale.htm

Either or both championship models can be either delivered to you or George will meet you part way to save on shipping cost...
obviously he will only do this for a domestic sale...

Tu-4 (Russian)




Tu-4AEW (Chinese)


Obviously this won more than its fair share of booty...this is just one Scale Masters Final...






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Old 07-31-2010, 07:44 PM   #324
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Default Yaw/Pitch/Crab Tell-Tail

Originally Posted by Hircflyer View Post
Threads on Dutch Roll and yaw dampers has jarred a memory.....do you know the B-47 had a yaw string?
Yup, 24 inches of parachute cord mounted in front of the windshield....simple but affective....
Here is a good photo of the "Yaw String" seen from about 30 degrees over the forward fuselage of a B-47E with the canopy removed.


Yaw Tell-Tail is seen ahead of fuselage centerline painted reference. Note chute cord has a frayed trailing end. I assume fray permitted
cord to trail in a more stable manner instead of flipping about. Fray would function like the tail on a kite.

Looking ahead of the cord attachment ring, there is a recessed plane that I suspect was created for the navigator sextent periscope.
Low pressure area immediately behind the "ridge" formed by rear of the flat plane would make for a more stable low pressure air stream
amidst the blast ahead of it...aka a perfect location for the Tell-Tail.
Last but definately not least is to repost the canopy paper doll...


The paper doll template for the canopy is on our B-47E CD and it can be resized to whatever you need because its a .pdf in high rez.



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Old 08-02-2010, 06:59 AM   #325
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Default B-47 Yaw String

Hi there!

I guess the co-pilot didn't need the yaw string??? What ever happened to the needle and ball - no time for a cross check; or didn't the B-47 pilot and co-pilot use 'em?

Cheers,

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