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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 10-29-2010, 08:38 PM   #426
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Default B-47 Segments

The three segments or sections of our B-47 are aligned with carbon fiber tube with phenolic sleeves, and joined with hardwood wing
truss-in-truss, c/f vail laminated bias laid-up balsa lined diamond and triangle shaped internal hot wired cavities, & c/f laminated fore
and aft triangle joiners. Below are the fuselage sections which will fill in with former shapes as each is audited and corrected if required.
Click underlined text to copy paste original images from server...

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...sRedatFrnt.gif

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...ntWFormers.gif

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...edatMiddle.gif

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...sRedatRear.gif

From here on to the end of this thead there should be many more smiles on the faces as we continue building the tools for all who are building along.







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Old 10-30-2010, 05:30 PM   #427
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Default

Mean while our other brain half is working on...legs. Click underlined text for full size. Yes, that's the Robart 160 tailwheel retract we are
using for our pair of mains. http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...inMaxUpDwn.gif

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Old 11-01-2010, 10:02 PM   #429
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Default

Ed - You mentioned on the first page of this thread that Joe Martin was your motivater to do this project. I have some video from the 1963 Nats showing Joe holding the B-47 which he flew later that day.

As an Air Force Pilot flying the F-94C I got to see the B-47 several times from several angles when we ran practice intercepts on them at 40,000 ft. Probably to most memorable time was a head on pass caused by an error by my radar observer during an intercept.
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:21 PM   #430
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Default Video of Martin B-47 Model

Sid:

If you could post the video of Joe Martin's model, I'm sure all of us who are following this sooper build thread would really appreciate it.

Regards,

Dave P. (USAF Class 56-0/328th Bm. Sqdn)
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:46 PM   #431
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Default Validation & Confirmation....

Originally Posted by SidGates View Post
Ed - You mentioned on the first page of this thread that Joe Martin was your motivater to do this project. I
have some video from the 1963 Nats showing Joe holding the B-47 which he flew later that day.

As an Air Force Pilot flying the F-94C I got to see the B-47 several times from several angles when we ran practice intercepts on them
at 40,000 ft. Probably to most memorable time was a head on pass caused by an error by my radar observer during an intercept.
Sid,

It was only after George Maiorana's TU-95 presented no real issues that I decided to move forward with my construction of the B-47.
When I began rounding up previousl modeling attempts I found Joe's and the smaller B-47D turbo prop models powered with tractor props.
LookiNG closely at Joe's wing~fuselage intersect discloses the "many" rubber bands holding the wing on... :^)


A long conversation with Joe yielded a great deal of landing approach data that turns out to be identical to the 1:1 B-47. Joe forgot to force
his touchdown to be level...and it resulted in a bucking bronco landing. I anticipate a 300 foot landing approach. If you have converted 8mm
or super 8mm to video I would like to see it. Is there flight footage on the reel? I am sure Joe would like to see it as well I can convert the
reel to digital video DVD or CD.

By the way, F-94's and their Mighty Mouse 2.75" FFR's ROCK ! ! !





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Old 11-02-2010, 12:09 AM   #432
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Default Joe Martin film

Ed & Dave - As you suspected the originl film is 8mm and I had it converted to digital about 2 yrs ago. I have not taken the time to learn how to post on You Tube but will do so soon.

Dave, I was class 56-N, primary at Malden, MO and then basic at Greenville, MS. I didn't mention it earlier but I am scratch building the F-94C for turbine. You can see my build at http://www.sidgates.us.

I will let you know when I post the film.
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:49 AM   #433
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Default Between D'front & D'rear

Middle formers...we move forward. Click to download your cut and paste copy of original image:
http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...Comp117450.gif


Yo...listen up...this is the revised fuselage side middle former image...as of 11/4/2010

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Old 11-02-2010, 06:30 PM   #434
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Default D' Midform Crisis...

Click underlined links to copy paste enlarged formers. Formers appear here in less than actual size.



http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/STA316.5.gif

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/STA425.gif

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/STA515.gif

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/STA591.gif

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/STA742.gif

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/STA801.5.gif

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/STA861.gif




Yo, these images are the edited/cleaned up and aligned forward rear formers!
I now return to do the same for the front formers...


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Old 11-03-2010, 01:07 AM   #435
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Default

Below is link to video of 1963 Nats. Short clip of Joe Martin and his B-47.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj4bznfqgQ4
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Old 11-03-2010, 02:29 AM   #436
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Default Excellent Video

Originally Posted by SidGates View Post
Below is link to video of 1963 Nats. Short clip of Joe Martin and his B-47. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj4bznfqgQ4
Sid Gates
I am sure Joe will enjoy the clip. Thanks for posting it ;^) Note, Joe's 80" w/s B-47D turbo prop version of the B-47 is 58% of our B-47E IV's size.


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Old 11-08-2010, 02:17 AM   #437
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Default

Yo, the edited and aligned formers are shown for the front and middle fuselage sections. Next is the rear...


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Old 11-09-2010, 05:21 PM   #438
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Default

Rear portion of the drawing must be compared to each former drawing, individually as was done for the previous front and middle fuselage sections.
To expose you to the process and how consequence of "discoveries" is worked... Note the rear turrent former STA 1279.25 is shown overlayed to
itself 180 degrees out to permit audit of forward radar "tube" symetry.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...InlineVert.gif


Below is with the turrent sheath shown in its proper position.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...SheathVert.gif


I present top~down overlay shown over rear section of side view along fuselage station STA 1279.25. Note top~down illustration forward edge of
horiz. stab too far forward...yet STA1279.25 is at proper location (turret sheeth top down and side views are aligned). Sheath is portion of the rear
which contains the rear turret ball.

Bottom line, fore to aft position of horiz stab will have to be placed in its proper position...not what is shown in either the side or the top down on
Boeing 100th drawing perspective
. I suspect one of the two is accurate to the B-47E IV. This is not a surprise in as much drawing was created as
the guide to the desk ashtray manufacturer who made awards for Boeing management when the IV contract was acquired.

Other issues will be disclosed and corrected as we move forward. Note, at the root of much of this evil is a fillet above and below the horiz stab... ;^)
It seems it somewhat confused the individual lofting the Boeing 100th drawing.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...urretOvrLa.gif



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Old 11-10-2010, 02:52 AM   #439
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Default Filling In The Fillets...

This is prelim until the vertical fin is introduced then all fillets all come into question. At least they are not full length of the horiz stab.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...osite11910.gif



http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/atta...1&d=1289508694







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Old 11-11-2010, 01:55 AM   #440
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Default Rearward Most Composite With Individual Sections

Its been a heck of a lot of work to get to these images.... Three graphics editors to produce more clearly defined perimeters with corrected
sections that conform to airframe former transitions. Click underlined texts to view enlarged images.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...site111010.gif





Note how the next to last former abruptly changes the overall shape for transition from the round radome and 20mm turret to that of the
fillets above and beneath the horiz stab to blend into the vertical fin.

These sections have been altered in vertical spacing of various components and each oval section was edited to match fuselage shape at
each station position to correct errors found on original 1/100th B-47E IV drawn and supplied by Boeing. "Every" multiple view drawing has
errors, however the Boeing drawn 1/100th B-47E IV drawing has severe error in the rear of the airframe. These required meaning to other
B-47 drawings then compared to photo documentation.

As is the accepted protocol for competitive flying scale modeling..."If it looks right, it must be"... :^) Yes, that is the way ties are broken...

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B47Lines/STA1279.25Composite.gif




http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...5Composite.gif



Well, what do ya thunk? The silence is deaf'n!

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/atta...1&d=1289528238




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Old 11-13-2010, 05:01 PM   #441
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Default Its All About Tri-Diamonds Inside...

After the intensity of realigning the rear, I moved to cleaning up the Tri-Diamond in the rough to relax a bit. Note the center datum line is edited...
I'll post this opaque .jpg on my server as a transparent .gif then the link back here after I get more done. Yes, I'll link to the 3200 x's image for
those building along. Remember this is final development where TONS of editing is going on.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...use111310A.jpg








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Old 11-13-2010, 06:39 PM   #442
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Default Boeing Incidence Declarations...

Earlier I and Dave both referenced the Boeing B-47E general layout drawing containing wing sweep reverse angle, 25% of MAC, as a top down
image. In my copy of a T.O. this is a companion illustration with a sideview.

Of merit in this drawing are the declarations for thrust CL and individual incidence of inboard and outboard engines. 25% of MAC is restated.
Note wing tip style BuNo differential guide for the two wing tip types. Chronilogical declaration will permit you to mate BuNo photo images in
documentation as an accuracy parting point.

NO....not all airframes had tips based on this "intention" by BuNo. You could have photos with opposite style tip so don't go ballistic if you
find this is the case in your photo docs. In my wing tip doc section I observed differentials on "various" BuNo in contradiction to this.

Thought those building along would like a copy of this large enough to enable enlargement to use as a template during construction. The .gif
is shown (Watt will probably flip it to a .jpg) The 1:1 page image can be downloaded by clicking underlined text.

Remember you must audit these and all line art in your defense against accumulative error and assumption. To audit incidence declarations
on the B-47E IV extend all incidence lines forward to convergence where you will measure differential to B-47E's "backbone" which is parallal
to the fuselage C/L (when C/L is at "0" angle).

For those using MS Image Composer as your editor, create a line paralleling the C/L and the B-47E's back bone (should be parallel). Place the
center point of this line at the point of convergence for each incidence declared for each airframe component in the drawing. After placing
the "created line" over convergence with its center exactly over intersect...

Use MIC to change the (angle) incidence of the "created line" to match that of the line extended "from" Boeing drawing incidence declaration
for each airframe component. Be sure to sum individual change amounts of the rotation to audit incidence declared by Boeing. Unless you are
one of the people who thinks Boeing never ever made a mistake in its declarations... ;^)

I thought about this after reading Dave's focus on nacelle/pylon composition and mounting.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...0Incidence.gif



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Old 11-15-2010, 12:44 AM   #443
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Default Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds (On The Bias)

Spider "surfboard" foam is utilized in construction of our fuselage. There is an interior cavity hot wired in a diamond shape in the center (middle
fuselage section) of our B-47.

Front and rear sections of our B-47 have 1/2 diamond (triangle) shaped sections. The front triangle points down and the aft triangle points up.
Each is hot wired from the foam interior.

I designed these cavities to provide T & C (tension and compression) engineered sections to form the backbone of the model. Each cavity is
laminated with bias grain balsa sheet.

This is to say...balsa sheet is cut on the bias to its grain then CA glued on the bias, end to end, to form a plank. See sheet bias below.
Click to see a larger rough illustration (Yes, actual lay up is trim and neat) of the bias sheet.

Bias lay-up is cut to fit each interior T & C hot wired surface.,,fore and aft triangle and diamond central cavity. Interior surface of each plank
is laminated with carbon fiber vail/tissue. C/F veil/tissue is a random fiber mesh which can be resin or CA lainated to a flat surface and invoke
GREAT sheer strength.



With the balsa grain glued on the bias then laminated with C/F veil...you have the makings of a stiff back bone with very little weight.

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...11410biasA.jpg




Ed

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Old 11-15-2010, 01:15 AM   #444
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Default what an effort

Never seen so much intricate and extensive attention to detail in a model plane. I'm afraid you lost me amongst the technicalities somewhere back there. Just looking forward to seeing it fly now. Hope all this dedication is successful
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Old 11-15-2010, 01:46 PM   #445
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Default Simple Process

Pattern14,

Welcome to scale scratch building... It only looks intricate because it is a step by step process.

Its really simple!

(1). Gather documentation photos and drawings of a given aircraft. Mean out differential in each perspective (head on, side, bottom up, top down,
and rear view drawing. As was pointed out multiple view drawings are not, I repeat...NOT typically a technical or engineered drawing. They
typically have errors in scale (sizing) between each perspective...yes, within the same drawing set/page.

(2). After meaning out differential, either select each perspective individually...or if lucky, the single most accurate multiple view set which most
accurately matches photographic documentation.

(3). When completed, establish dims across entire drawing as your project "baseline"...aka "beginning point". Note, that isn't the end of the initial
work up process... It is the beginning...You will note the title of this entire thread is "In The Beginning".

(4). Establishing an initial target w/s, you begin the process of determing an estimate of AUW (based on parities). This then turns into a long You
Tube search, (like where else would you expect to find jets video taped during their entire flight... for an airframe of X weight at Y w/s
"flying" with consistant flight parity. For example, this project began with my intention to use kero burners.

(5). After identifying a power management system, delineate into total weight...which must include fuel required for length of time you must have
for flight. In my case, I sought a solid 11 minutes of flight including loiter.

Simply sum the parity weight and power management system to determine estimated AUW. In my specific case, there is a 33# weight limit in
FAI, sans batteries. If the estimated AUW is over your target, whittle away on physical dims and power system to achieve less than the weight
"limit".

All the whittling has to take into account the materials "your" project utilizes for its construction...compared to performance of parity airframes
you determined were prototypical to what you witnessed on YouTube.

(6). After you work your way through this, you "start" your design process... :^) Select a design "style" you feel comfortable and confident with. I
have made it a point to witness the fact you DO NOT HAVE TO USE C.A.D. to scratch build a scale model. CAD is a tool, exactly as a Zona saw
is a tool.

At a point when I complete my work up, I determine if it is best to mill components or utilizing hot wire in construction phase. Nothing is difficult
about any of this...you can do it all with MS Paint© and MS Office Picture Manager©...both of which are 90% of the computers used in reading
this post... ;^) The only other software I am relying on for my design process is MS Image Composer© and Adobe Photo Shop© 7.XXX (7.XXX
is being used because opsys in the notebook I am using is Win XP).

Actually this process is doumenting a swept wing EDF stick... Nothing more, nothing less. Have you ever flown a Scat Cat or Scooter II fun
fly planes? The only thing more complex about this is...neither a Scat Cat or Scooter II has retracts...




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Old 11-15-2010, 11:50 PM   #446
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Default different perspectives

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Ed. My scratchbuilds are all near scale/ semi scale, all from drawings and sketches, and all from the
luft 46 website. They are also all full contact combat planes. The amount of work involved in buiding a totally scale piece of art would be a little academic when it's ultimate intended use is ramming or being rammed. But that is where my interest lies though. Still, I have really followed this thread with interest, and learned a lot about design and perspective. Flying in the constant 30 knot winds and landing in cow paddocks also is a factor in my choice of planes and building materials and techniques. The only plane that even comes close to scale flying is my Me 262, and it is light years apart from you level of detail. Best of luck with your project
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:48 AM   #447
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Default

The reason this build thread is where it is...is expressed in both your posts. Scale, the word...is perceived on a wide bandwidth between kinda
sorta scale to precision replication. The majority of people enter at the kinda-sorta-scale level then never move forward for lack of confidence,
not a lack of building skill. After all, the list of skills required will fit on seven or eight lines of a Big Chief pad.

The issue is a lack of mentoring in the United States and Canada. Those who do Scale for the most part don't share their knowledge base with
anyone for fear of a loss of control over what they perceive as their place within the Scale community.



Harry Higley and his son say it best...."There Are No Secrets" and "Master Modeling". Harry's books are an excellent investment in a trek into scale
modeling. I recommend it as "the" reference book for "all" scale modelers. Don't expect to find a magic CRS manual sitting in a book store. The
stores will all go out of business before someone composes their observations.



The third book I consider very helpful in getting your head on straight...with respect to scratch building is "Scratch Building R/C Airplanes" by
Rich Uravitch.

"There Are No Secrets","Master Modeling" and "Scratch Building R/C Airplanes" can be found online and sure beat wasting $ if a modeler is one
of those who "has to experience things for themselves to learn". Thse are investments in "answers" and "how-to's". There are safer hobbies
people who dive into scale modeling without resources like these books...give me a moment I'll think of one...just a moment...I know there has
to be one...mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm NO ! !

A good practice is to ask questions of the person who's scale model you like. Don't be bashful...ask them how they did X, Y, & Z...then pay close
attention to the answer(s). By the way, there are no real mistakes...they are "the" learning curve. Join forces with a flying buddy interested in
scale and build something...together....after gathering documentation for the whatever...


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Old 11-16-2010, 04:05 PM   #448
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Default Trussing It Up...

To celebrate Thanksgiving, I thought it appropriate we get the fuselage all trussed up like a turkey...well this, I am sure, is considered a turkey
by many...already.. ;^) By the way, if building along...save this file... http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...seHdOnWing.gif
That will undoubtedly come in handy.
You're gonna want to include this one as well... http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...diaLineDat.jpg





You will need the new fore and aft hotwire triangle as well. http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...200BlueTri.gif


And this point of reference: http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...HeadOnWing.jpg





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Old 11-17-2010, 02:34 AM   #449
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Ed, I thought that it was some kind of demented pumpkin, not a trussed turkey...

Take care and thanks for posting at WattFlyer!!

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Old 11-17-2010, 02:49 AM   #450
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Don,

Instead of demented...its either Pumpkin D'mint or Crème Brulée... I've already had my pumpkin cheese cake ice cream from Marble Slab
Creamry followed the next day with a half pimpkin and half pecan pie from Kroger... I seem to be gaining on the B-47... :^)


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