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Old 08-25-2012, 04:49 PM   #526
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Default We're Back.... :)

Looking Back...



We took a short break before beginning our CNC milling and hot wiring. Thread is anticipated to start again
in the 1:8.7669 aka 1:9 section in September...opps, its a week before September...

This resumed with audit of CAD resources...Dick's extensive measurement of the 1:1 surface, along with Sam's
photo vault proved to be a great resource pool. There was a flat observed during the physical measurements
that rarely showed up in photos due to the shape's high waterline location that is oblique to points of view in
photos.

There is a flat, yes...flat aka vertically aligned section along the front third of the fuselage waterline. This was
an itch Dick found difficult to ignore because during his information gathering treks he had measured explicit
location which while reviewing the B-47 microfilm with Michael in Washington, DC served to show the former
of origin.

The drawing below shows a white polygon section which represents the flat fuselage fore to aft section shape.
This will definately be seen on our 1:8.7669 fuselage when covered with Flite-Metal.

Originally I had assumed there was simply a line along the fuselage side which followed the intersect between
top and bottom forward ellypse. I assumed it to be like that of the Globe Master, however the drawing I have
showing the ellypse intersect is the forward point of origin and waterline of the intersect. I failed to account
for it widening to a flat vertical surface between its two waterline points.


(Above image is a "final" fuselage shape at the close of the "In The Middle" B-47 thread)

Due dilegence will always reward you with results. Whether it be liability issues or modeling projects.
In tracking down the shape differential from the simple line art drawings found else where, we enjoy
a more accurate fuselage shape.

Reviewing the Hasaguawa detailed plastic kit...when held at a severe angle permitting light from a
florescent lamp to reflect across surface you can clearly see the above appears accurately on plastic
kit...

Here are our parting points with individual cross section identities measured from the nose of the B-47
and vertically from fuselage "backbone". Two years of validation resulted in confirmation of accuracy.



B-47 1:8.7669th/1/9th Scale, Boeing Stratojet...In The Middle


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Old 06-22-2013, 03:43 PM   #527
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Default Where Are We 6/22/2013



If you have reached this post from the beginning congrats! Continue on to the end so you
will understand our scratch building processes. If you are simply reviewing, I need to let you
know where we are today.

I tracked down Chris Davey in England. For those unfamiliar with Chris. Chris is the key Osprey
Publishing illustrator. ChrisHe drew the most accurate multiple view drawings of the B-47 by
comparison to the eight we collected. Remember, during the in-service period, Cold War, all
measured drawings...with the exception of one...we have... were Top Secret! Aka not to be
Found.

Chris drew a 1:48th multiple view for Aviation New's large format...18 x 28 centerfold. Each
Month this now extinct news print scale aviation rag focused on a family of aircraft, looking at
The subjects from their point of origin. In this case swept wing jet bombers.

Chris's 1:48th original drawing was reproduced @ 1:72nd and portions overlapped to permit
them to fit the front and back of the single folded centerfold sheet. This is obviously not what
I was in need of, so...

I searched the net coming up empty. Yes, went through Osprey's UK offices via email but no
one forwarded my email to Chris. No one, until I contacted their NY offices. Finally someone
took this project seriously!

After two months, bingo! I found someone who championed the USA F4C effort I am making.
Two days after inquiring... I had my email forwarded to Chris. 10 days later after thinking
I had failed again. Then late one Sunday evening, Chris replied to my inquiry saying he had
both 1 copy of Sept 12th, 1980 issue Vol. 9 Number 8 Aviation News and the original inked
multiple view B-47 drawings.

Chris had both, and was at a point where he was ready to down size. I have both now... I'll
eventually have these available.


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Old 07-14-2013, 04:49 PM   #528
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Default Exercise Caution and Follow Safety Instructions:

Every electrical component utilized in an EDF powered model clearly states the capacity
and voltage capabilitiy rating for that item. Commercial items are typically marked with
an international electric association logo from EU, Canadian, US, or PacRim standards.



Home made or DYI electrical components are discouraged. Integration of these items is
common in scale modeling. Consult an EE when in doubt!!!


Project Preamble: Please read and determine for yourself how the following applies to you, the reader:

Any and all persons reading this discussion must come to their own determination of the safety and wisdom of
emulating or replicating any and all aspects of what is described within this discussion.

This includes, but is not limited to your own decision on the safety of and whether you should be involved in this
or these activities and any processes or use of equipment related to recreating what is, or has been discussed
here-in by topic author and subscribers to WattFlyer, the host of this discussion.

Neither the author of this topic nor WattFlyer.com are responsible for proper or improper use of, nor the correct
or incorrectness of any process activity undertaken by any one or all readers of this construction thread.

*As in all modeling activities, reader beware of the personal skills to either properly or improperly apply the
principals described here-in. It is impossible to declare whether this activity is or is not proper for readers of
this discussion. The reader is solely responsible for their utilization of this information.

For your safety, consult an electrical engineer to explain the dangers associated with a model powered with
voltages equal or greater to those utilized in this EDF Boeing B-47 project.



*Ref.From a Candle Power Systems forum discussion


When does DC voltage become dangerous?:
The problem with such a question is that the answer is so complicated. It's mostly the amount of current
flowing into a vital organ that causes death.
If you run a current between two fingers on the same hand, only a small percent of the current will flow through,
for instance, your heart. If you run the current from your left hand to your right hand, a larger percentage of the
current will flow through the heart. A medical patient with, for instance electrodes for a heart monitor could
have a much lower current threshold if there's some sort of electrical problem because .

Even though we say current is the problem, what we see most of the time is voltage. We are usually dealing with
what we consider to be "constant voltage" sources. This would be something like a battery. It produces 1.5 Volts
most of the time. If you have 0.01 mA flowing, it's 1.5 Volts. If you pull 500 mA out of it, it's still close to 1.5V.

Now, assume you have an exposed voltage of 50 V somewhere. If you walk up and touch it and have on shoes
with rubber or plastic soles, the electrical resistance of your shoes is so high that you might only get a few micro
amps. Change to leather soles, you still probably don't get much current. Now, assume you're touching a metal
piece of furniture with one hand and touch the 50V circuit with the other. You get considerably more current.

Now, consider if you have sweaty hands and are making really good contact with a grounded metal table. Now,
assume you're standing in a decorative fountain with wet hands working on the water pump and you don't realize
that the 50V DC power supply isn't turned off.

The threshold of "safe" voltage varies widely in these different situations because the electrical resistance varies
so widely.

In the electrical engineer safety discussions, a "nightmare" scenario was something like "A technician is working
on a piece of low voltage electronic equipment. The equipment has energized components with sharp edges, for
instance voltage test pins. The technician slips and manages to spear a finger on each hand with a pin and pierce
the skin. What's a safe voltage level here?" The answer was that there probably was no safe level.

With all that said, you mostly worry about voltages above 50V. You understand that lower voltages can still be dangerous
in certain conditions. You become more concerned in wet conditions, or any kind of medical situation. Me, I start getting
nervous above 12V, and ratchet up the nervousness as voltage gets higher.

You also understand that a lower voltage high current situation can cause thermal burn problems. For instance, shorting
out a car battery with your class ring can cause a really nasty burn.

By the way, telephone wiring is around 48 Volts when the phone is on the hook, and we normally don't worry about that
too much. However, if you're messing with some phone line connection and thoughtlessly decide to hold the connector
in your mouth to free both hands, it can be an unpleasant or even fatal surprise. Especially if the phone rings, when the
voltage jumps to around 90V.

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Old 10-29-2014, 04:37 PM   #529
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Default Bernie's Vegas Bomber Crashes

A lot to be learned from this footage...Feed back from everyone welcomed



Bernie's B-47 flite provides a lot of valuable witnessing, especially how little
drag exists though there are tons of hung on drag inducers.

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Old 10-29-2014, 10:51 PM   #530
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EEK !
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Old 10-29-2014, 11:14 PM   #531
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Default

And just what was it, we learned from this video?

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Old 11-08-2014, 07:14 PM   #532
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First. I'm always extremely sorry to see any project end in a disaster like this. Sorry to see this happen to Bernie"s beautiful bird !
What can we learn from this video?
Well, I have just begun work on a new project which is taking be from propeller aircraft to a swept wing jet using EDFs. I'm no aeronautical engineer but I've read that highly swept jets can stall easily in a steep aileron/rudder turn. Looking at this video it appears to me that the tight turn caused the left wing to stall and the stall was aggravated by the drag of the left aileron having a lot of down (assuming full right aileron was applied to correct the roll). Flight testing before the flight showed an extreme amount of aileron travel without any aileron differential.

That's my 2 cents for what it's worth.
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Old 11-08-2014, 09:44 PM   #533
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Default

They didn't appreciate my analysis when I stated angle of attack was rather severe for a swept
wing. The ailerons were rendered useless when the left wing rose out of its shoulder position.

Only with one exception, pilots of every other (3) B-47's warned that they began to loose traction
when the angle of attack brought either wing parallel with the ground.

After all, I have not yet flown my B-47 so I was considered stupid and a lowly FOD finder...

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Old 11-08-2014, 10:18 PM   #534
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Yes, after watching the video several more times, it appears that the left wing did fold a bit. So the disaster was more of a structual failure?
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Old 11-09-2014, 03:40 AM   #535
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Default B-47 Crash Angle Of Attack Or Structural Failure?

Look at the beginning of the video during the assembly process. The model does not have any, I repeat, any wing cantilever
except a carbon fiber rod about the diameter of a wood pencil. There is no spar pocket and blade third member.



When assembled the fuselage is picked up with a resulting gap between end of wing and the fuselage side against which the
end sits flush against. There is somewhat of a third member in what appears to be a wooden dowel back near the trailing edge
of the wing root.

The wings are held together under minimum tension with rubber bands. Each rubber band is strung between each wing ends.
They were not double stretched. Rubber is virtually without tension.



There is "0" anhedral in a B-47's wing. There is mirage anhedral due to wing incidence and its angle of attack when standing
static. The scale airfoil is a reflex with a long flat bottom for virtually four fifths of the chord. This is designed to provide high
lift at relatively low speed. I believe the wing chosen by Bernie is/was a Clark Y.


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Old 11-09-2014, 03:30 PM   #536
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Default Wing Loads

For a B-47 wing, the vertical shear load at the aft spar attachment (58% chord, 45 inch BL) is approximately 2X the lift. The vertical shear load at the fwd spar attachment (17% chord, 45 inch BL) is approximately -1X the lift, i.e., down. The wing drag loads, the thrust loads and the weight loads must also be considered. And then there is the bending moment, . . . In a 60 degree bank, the gravity loads double. It's not a pretty picture.

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Old 11-09-2014, 04:50 PM   #537
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Default Severe AOT & Its Effect On Bernie's Crash

I hesitated to be too critical as Bernie has had successful flight with a pair of B-52
and now his B-47 project. Bernie is not the pilot, I am not sure if he used the same
pilot for all three airframes.

Between the wing attachment, aka pre-tensioning, or lack there of...and airframe's
severe angle of attack in its final turn anything could be considered problematic. I
am sorry to see Bernie's effort fly for so short a time. It shocked me to see a high
angle of attack with no more air time on the model...rushing things a mite?

One thing for sure, I believe Bernie will continue his rebuild. I am almost as sure that
the rebuild will be exactly that, a rebuild of the original airframe construction, without
the benefit of structural analysis...or in this case, destructive analysis.

We already know this wing planform works well as there have been three previous in
air witnesses to a mild behavior with the swept wing at 36+ degrees. For me the one
challenge is reducing the minimum air speed to sustain proper flight behavior, aka w/o
Dutch Roll while retaining aileron deflection adequate for a proper flight plan.

Do not discount BAC's accumulated deflection data posted in a B-47B's Flight Manual.
Outboard flap is a flaperon with 50% deflection loss below 160 knots indicated. That's
not going to change witnessed in this most recent of takeoff images.

Lets be honest, flaps that increase wing area are a given, however a serious effort in
creating a progressive flap angle while retaining aileron functionality was mandated by
BAC. I have dedicated a great % of this design, construction, and flight thread showing
exactly how this is achieved.


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Old 11-09-2014, 06:04 PM   #538
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Default Flaps Require Deflection Angle Differential To Work ! !

So what makes the above mandate work on the model? Previously posted images will
reappear here since we are on the point of concern for Bernie's reason for falling out
of the sky, literally.



Inboard flap control.



Outboard flaperon, note bottom hingepoint permiting only "down" aileron through the fore and
aft travel of the entire flap mechanism.

Note: The CAM carrige arms are what is seen on the flap topside leading edges.





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Old 02-07-2015, 07:34 PM   #539
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CNC mill testing today. Pix when time permits.

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Old 08-01-2015, 05:17 PM   #540
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Default Need for authoritative CG data...

Originally Posted by GGRN View Post
HI guys ! Happy new year to all !
As for me, Just have some uncertainity about the CoG location...
Where would you locate it ? Greetings from Paris Philippe
Sorry, I may have overlooked this question. At the time we were
very much over our head with respect to resolved data. However
I can answer your question because it is an explicit provided by
Boeing.

All you need is the drawing to go with it. Overlaying of the 25%
MAC declaration will provide you a safe CG location down backbone
of the fuselage.

CG is just behind the rear apex of the wing trailing edges. I will post
the image which actually appears downstream a ways but its one
of those questions I would have expected way before now...

The T.O. below should enable you to finish your B-47... The only
exception will be to the RB with its longer nose. Simply rerun all the
CG numbers to correct. Don't know that will really matter since the
length change is in an area of low mass, ahead of CG .

http://004edc4.netsolhost.com/B47/B4...0Incidence.gif (full size)


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Old 09-04-2015, 05:33 PM   #541
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Hi Guys,

Just noticed there were 11 of you reading the thread as I was gathering up the last
of the analog drawings before we combine with CAD double auditing (AKA as double
doubting ourselves then we're into CNC cutting balance of fuselage w/cutouts for
airfoil and internal truss.

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Old 04-26-2016, 09:17 PM   #542
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Old 04-26-2016, 11:47 PM   #543
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Just love the B-47. Really was the inspiration for the B-707 with the swept wing design. Of course, the straight wing DH Comet was failing mainly due the square windows. So along comes Boeing with the swept wing airliner designed from lessons learned during the B-47 program.

Keep working !

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Old 05-28-2016, 05:22 PM   #544
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Default Don't Stop Viewing....There Are Two More Thrilling Sections ;^)

Hawk,

Don't stop reviewing at this point...there are two more thrill filled chapters left in this epic project. For
example, ripping through printing of the cockpit at this time, along with Sam completing the CNC hot
wire.

Back to the hangar...

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