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Electric Ducted Fan Jets Discuss electric ducted fan jets here including setup tips, power systems, flying techniques, etc.

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Old 04-11-2010, 10:05 PM   #201
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Default B-47 Docs & 10.2% Design Resources

If I made my documentation and design elements available on a CD... would anyone be interested in a copy? It has grown to be two CD's in volume.
Instead of placing it all on one DVD I thought it best to enable those without a DVD drive to utilize it as well. You should also be aware these can
typically be viewed in a DVD player as well because most play CD's in addition to DVDs. You can request a coy either here in a post or click underlined
text to send an email request: [email protected]



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Old 04-13-2010, 05:57 AM   #202
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Default

I found this thread about the B-47 by accident and I for one salute your efforts to sink the time and energy into this project. I hope that you can come up with a 'short kit' of this baby sometime in the future after you have proven that it works. Bomber Field or Top Gun is in you future with this?

I haven't visit RCScale Builder in awhile, are you posting updates there as well?
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:10 PM   #203
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Default If It Works... ;^)

Shanksow,

Thanks...

I am a Bomber Field member. Top Gun is invitation only after Frankie thinks there is something of exhibition and show value in a
model. Kits, short or full...I don't understand how that could ever be achieved.

Was there something less than cookie-cutter-how-to explained since post #1? WattFlyer is a proper place for my project because
subscribers to WattFlyer tend to think more out-of-the-box than those on other R/C forums.

After I introduced the B-47E card model...I suspect there are several people who started their own B-47 at whatever size. Size is
an element of power capable of sustaining flight with a chosen airfoil and shape.

Electrons are more effecient for "my" B-47. I don't have any place to fly something larger...we only have 750' of paved runway to
land on at Bomber Field. All flight testing will be at a full size airport.

"If it works"...I suppose is the most interesting comment I've read from someone. Project started after the Tu-95's success with
the wing planform. I was closer to the Tu-95 build out than most had an opportunity to be and learned a lot from George's Tu-95.

1.62# x thrust = AUW of a flying ducted fan model. That's been a working formula for over 35 years of D/F use.


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Old 04-13-2010, 05:59 PM   #204
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Default 1/10.2 B-47E-IV Short Kit... ?

Shanksow:

How would you propose a short kit be created for a 1/10.2 B-47E-IV?


Wingspan: 137.19"

Fuselage Length: 120.72"

Maximum Fuselage Width: 11.14"

Nacelle Width: 9.653"

Nacelle Tube Length: 19.742"

Nacelle Total Length: 24.21"

Wing Tank Length: 27.56"

Wing Tank Diameter: 5.37"

Vertical Fin: 21.5"

Horizonal Stab Width: 38.22"


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Old 04-13-2010, 06:26 PM   #205
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Default

I was just asking.

Plans, templates? The only thing I can think off at this moment is the main engine pod and tubes aft of the DF. Maybe the mounting frame to attach the DF unit to, the outrigger Landing gear to. Attachment points for a future fiberglass shell.

Again, just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Your CD-Rom is basically 75-90% of the short kit anyway.
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Old 04-13-2010, 06:55 PM   #206
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Default What You See Is What You Get

Outrigger gear arrived today...Sam is picking his up on his way home. Look forward to pix and maybe a
video file to post.

The latest version of the flap looks promising...screw jack is where we are right now. The same for
the mains... ;^) Nothing is assumed until we beat up something bad enough to know if it will work
or fall apart....hopefully before it gets off the ground.


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Old 04-15-2010, 03:10 AM   #207
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Default Excellent Online B-47 Video

Several questions are answered in this video. One of the best so far...it discloses movement of
fuel door, bomb-sight periscope cover movement, and mission sequence. Loved crab approaches ;^)

http://www.veoh.com/collection/NextP...2959747T8GAqxE

Another group of answers came pouring out of this one. "Early" model canopy motion showing how
far back and up the canopy sat when open. There are two video images...one with Jimmy Stewart
in SAC and the training film showing the cam up and over action of the late model canopy.


Oh those were the days my friend, they'll never end...


I found images of a desk top Boeing Corp. model...however, they were not going to stay up long with
their link. I will post them below. These are not 1/100th, they are smaller.



There are two different or different styles of display models. One promoting smoking, the other with
a plaque style base. These were manufactured by an LA company for Douglas and Boeing.

Dave, there has to be at least a couple of these in antique shops there in Seattle...close to Boeing...
There is an ash tray base as well. The round ash tray base has Lloyd shown as the manufacturer in
LA. These appear to be pot metal with a heavy chrome layer.



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Old 04-15-2010, 05:12 AM   #208
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Default

The video shows the early canopy operation which was operated by hydraulics, from 53 models on the canopy was a clamshell type operated by electrical power...the reason given at the time for the change was when the aircraft was operated from cold bases and sat out in the weather the hyd system leaked also was a safety issue several ground crew men were injured as the hyd. sys. was active during towing operations for brake presure....crew would stand in up through the opening and the lever to close was on the right side under the canopy rail. Several people were injured as they turned while standing and their clothing caught on the knob. They needed to stand to be able to see if the wing tips were clear during a turn during the towing operation.

Lifelong RC Pilot
Still 'passing gas' flying nitro and gas too!
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:32 AM   #209
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Default B-47 Videos/Images

Hi Ed!

Sorry, couldn't view the desk-model images, and never did see the canopy- open shot of the second version of the canopy. The USAF films were interesting; reminded me a bit of my days in the 328th BS at Castle AFB, though all our B-52 refuelings were from KC-135s; long missions (10-12 hrs).

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 04-15-2010, 02:25 PM   #210
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Default Watts Go'n Down...That Comes Back Up

$149.95for the complete system :)

Speed: 3 seconds per cycle
Length: 3.19 in (81.0mm)
Width: 1.75 in (44.5mm) base width, .70 in (18.0mm) unit width
Height: 1.15 in (29.2mm)
Weight: 4.2 oz (118.5g) each
Connector Type: JR
Gear Material: Steel/Brass
Current Draw Idle: 5mA
Current Draw Stall: 900mA
Voltage: 4.8 - 7.2 volts
All aluminum retract unit
Robust landing gear strut and mounting bracket
Integrated electric motor with a micro PCB
Built-in overcurrent protection

Touching down in June....E-Flight's EFLG400 series 60-120 size non rotating retracts in mains as well as a trike set-up for just a
wee more. At some yet to be announced date the EFLG401100R/L 100 degree rotating retract mains and seperate trike system
will be released.




Comes with the "Y" harness to connect both to a single channel to power from either your receiver or use another "Y" and plug a
battery into the circuit. .pdf manual... http://www.horizonhobby.com/ProdInfo...0120lowres.pdf



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Old 04-29-2010, 04:10 AM   #211
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Default impressed

wow, you guys don't play games around here, this far exceeds my first impression of an "r/c" plane......
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:37 AM   #212
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Those retracts are good news.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:50 AM   #213
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IOIcy06, Yes, we tend to be more than our fair share of OCD.

Shanksow, The E-Flite non-rotating mains are available now.


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Old 05-01-2010, 05:53 PM   #214
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Default 3rd Sparing Round...

As we worked our way across the flaps and two methods of driving them, the simpler the mechanism became (telescoptic) and the
easier it was to move which led Sam to revisit original motion method. Its virtually the same as George's Tu-95 I showed earlier...we'll see.

Since receipt of BAC drawings I have refined what you've been shown. Not that much different. Well maybe there are a few changes .
I have time to work this up since my partner in crime is going off to middle earth for a month.

Pix when we've got'em.

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Old 05-10-2010, 04:27 AM   #215
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I'm missing something with your flap setup... As I see it, you have pushrods with ball links to push the flap out, and single point guides at the ends that run in the flap tracks, so except at the end of the extension, the air stream will keep the flap parallel to the air stream until the guides reach the end of their slots, then the push rods can force the flap down. Don't you need a front and aft guide to run in the track to force the desired flap angle
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:32 PM   #216
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Default Flap Path Travel Vs. Observed Angle Of Dangle

Originally Posted by rterhune View Post
I'm missing something with your flap setup... As I see it, you have pushrods with ball links to push the flap out, and
single point guides at the ends that run in the flap tracks, so except at the end of the extension, the air stream will
keep the flap parallel to
the air stream until the guides reach the end of their slots, then the push rods can force the flap down.
Don't you need a front and aft guide
to run in the track to force the desired flap angle
Robert,

I'll share the images again, this time with blue and green highlighting to show the two "different" lines (angles) of travel for the track
and movement rods. I flipped image over so image illustrates track in its normal attitude.


Second image shows flap pivot point and track attachment are "not" in the same travel plane. Travel paths converge at what I will
call midpoint flap setting, as mechanism moves further rearward the ball links attached along embedded pivot point (rod set-back
within flap) permit flap rotation around axis to lower to max down flap. Do these images make it easier to understand?


Understanding the landing requirement for this shape and its lack of drag...is important to survive the "optional" landing maneuver.
I desire to increase wing area while not presenting too severe of a flap deflection which in the case of a B-47 would slow it down
too much forcing me to consume current to maintain proper approach airspeed. Other issues at hand which were explained earlier.


The B-47 has an elongated approach due to inline "bicycle" landing gear config which renders virtually "0" flare as illustrated previously.
Obviously the top landing illustration is the only acceptable one... The approach illustration above was copied from the 1:1 B-47
pilot training manual. Remember, I am going to have to slow down, yet maintain throttle all the way to the rear tire's touch down.



This results in a down wind leg at half flap, increasing to full flap over base leg to final with the fan achieving an appropriate load
point to maintain altitude across the approach to the "outer marker". I will use an artifical outer marker to assure I do not forget...
I am fortunate to have acquired the use of a private airport to practice the only difficult maneuver for a B-47, or a B-52 for
that matter.

Why is it I feel some readers have lost their enthusiasm for building a Statojet...



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Old 05-10-2010, 02:03 PM   #217
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I went back and reviewed the postings of the flap mechanism. I understand it better now. The push rods arn't mearly shoving the flap out, but the ball links act as the 2nd "track" and work in concert with the outter track to produce the angle of attack of the flap. Nice.
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Old 05-10-2010, 02:30 PM   #218
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As long as you are thinking ahead to a flight routine, another procedure unique to the B-47 that you might consider incorporating, though it would take some extra plumbing for the retracts:
(from Wikepedia)
The aircraft was so aerodynamically slick that rapid descent ("penetration") from high cruise altitude to the landing pattern required dragging the deployed rear landing gear.
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Old 05-10-2010, 02:57 PM   #219
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Robert,

I appreciate your observation of our mechanism. Your experience had you addressing the "important issues" all too often overlooked
until someone has either designed or built themselves into a corner from which they can not get out of.

Your experience sent you on a trek guided by the requirement to maintain alignment while relieving bind along flap track cam path,
yet create tension so flap does not "flap in the breeze".

When Sam and I began this B-47 project, research began in October and continues. I turned the flap mechanism over to Sam who
has redesigned it three times. Now it has telescoptic tube & entire fore ~ aft footprint is around 5.6".

None of previously illustrated non-telescoping multiple tube flap mock-ups apply. There is a new wing configuration evolving and the
complexity of the flap mechanism has been reduced a "whole bunch" I mentioned it earlier but it probably didn't mean much at that
time as much as comes home to roost as we build out. Flap outboard section has differentiated travel to function as flaperons.

When inboard flap is between midpoint and 15 degrees, outboard flap is 15 degrees but moves with aileron to provide required aileron
offset. As inboard flap moves further, outboard flap functions only as flap out to full extension.

You knew there had to be a catch didn't you...

Last but no least, the angle of the flap dangle is about 22 to 23 degrees....added to the 5.5 degrees of incidence so the appearance
is proper when the model taxies out and back. When Sam's offshore trip is over we will mount a test bed on the hood of my pickup
and simulate approach at speeds we anticipate encountering...at the airport, not on the freeway...

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Old 05-10-2010, 03:29 PM   #220
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Default Getting Round-2-it Flight Round Credit

Robert,

Prototypical flight was the first resource back in October when I began. Aside from landing approach and eye candy deployment,
it was important to "not" create a subject at this level of complexity and expense that flew with limited maneuver capability as
found in George Maiorana's Tu-4, AEW, Tu-95 and most bombers like the B-29. B-36, and B-52. There's even a YouTube video
on the B-52's limits.

Not only was the B-47 faster than any fighter when deployed, it was flown as a fighter bomber. All control surfaces were pressure
boosted, not merely employing boost tabs. There are internal ballum chambers in fin, stab, and wing to pressurize boost rudder,
aileron, and elevator pilot input.

To achieve this, USAF B-47 training and maintenance manuals were acquired, 1400 pages in only two volumes. After I beat on
resources for another month we had over 150 meg of online data and library numbering eight books, some of which exceeded 200
pages. Virtual documentation is 1,364 files of 572 MB (600,687,234 bytes) computer resident B-47 documentation plus all hardcopy.

Judging is the comparison of competitor provided documentation. Unless a competitor takes time to preface the flight round with a
short description of what will be viewed it is impossible to earn one's deserved reward.

Typical and prototypical differentials are in conflict only with respect to disclosure to the judges. Wheels down along the downwind
leg and deployment of the drag chute midway through the final approach, then at touch down popping the brake chute are explained.

Aside from the above, the LABS maneuver or a flight round with the "RASCAL" Air-To-Ground guided missile launch are the only
maneuvers requiring description and a supporting maneuver illustration as a companion to my score sheet.


Takeoff with "RASCAL" Air-To-Ground guided missile tucked under the right wing on its pylon.


Above is a blurry LABS maneuver (Immelman) illustration, low level delivery of nuclear weapons.

I'll leave it to your imagination as to how I will prototypically perform the two maneuvers with a single airframe... ;^)


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Old 05-10-2010, 05:12 PM   #221
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Ed, while reading your latest posts, I was sitting here wondering how in the world they planned to wind tunnel test their latest wing design. Putting a test bed on the pickup is a great solution!

Take care and thanks for posting at WattFlyer!!

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Old 05-10-2010, 05:36 PM   #222
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Default Testing B-47 Flaps Before Construction

Originally Posted by Don Sims View Post
Ed, while reading your latest posts, I was sitting here wondering how in the world they planned to wind
tunnel test their latest wing design. Putting a test bed on the pickup is a great solution!
Don.

The plan is to mount 2x4 spanning hood, attached to bracket left & right side of hood using under hood fender bolts to secure. 2x4
will hold a hot wired & finished wing section 20% wider than inboard flap suspended above the 2x4.

Wing mount will provide clear air through which flap will operate by servo, receiver and battery. Turn on transmitter and test three
position programed flap at proper speed. I suppose we could call this a wind tunnel test couldn't we...

This brings us to "the" issue with the Boeing B-47 that nearly became their project killer... below is a drawing of the wind tunnel model
suspended within the wind tunnel showing the teather test model attached via minimum retention mount to evaluate yaw, wing flutter,
and lift of the outboard wing sections at ROG.



This side of driving the College Station and the A&M wind tunnel with its Enola Gay prop, I think my Ford F-150 will work well as an
air mover.



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Old 05-10-2010, 08:55 PM   #223
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Default B-47 Landing Pattern/Procedure

Hi Ed!

Wow! you are sure making progress on your Stratojet - looks great!!

Do you plan to 'lob' some sort of projectile in your 'LABS' maneuver? My vague recollection is that this maneuver was only used for a relatively brief period, and was later removed from the 'approved' profiles for the aircraft due to concerns about over-stressing the airframe, etc.

Your landing-pattern/description seems a little at odds with the B-47 flight manual: wouldn't you increase flaps to 'full' just before entering the turn to final? (On the T-33, this was the procedure; and on the B-52, final flaps were set on final approach, as I recall - depended on weight, etc.).

Cheers,

Dave P.

PS: the cockpit on my model has turned into a very vexing problem, and my first two vac-formed canopies didn't turn out too good. I'll add some photos soon.
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:47 AM   #224
Flite-Metal
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[QUOTE=Capt. Midnight;718332]Hi Ed! Wow! , etc. Cheers, Dave P. QUOTE]

Dave,

What are you celebrating? This past week has not been productive at all... Appearances must be better than reality I am
redrawing the wing from two piece to three piece parting outside of pylons.

Flap progress has been excellent...Sam is going offshore for a month so I have to kick it into gear before he returns. This of course
is exactly as my real world comes back to life.

Don't give up on the canopy. Are you using a large PET-G bottle or trying to draw flat sheet? If plug is strong enough mount it on
hardwood then stick it in a bottle and use a heat gun to shrink it down.

I still think you can find a canopy back section from a smaller RV-4 and a windshield from something else.

I'm going away for a while to get the wing squared away.


Ed Clayman
"Flite-Metal For The Look Of The Real Thing"
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:07 PM   #225
rterhune
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Did you notice on Horizonhobby web site that while the pair of mains is ~$144 you can buy individual units for ~$50......
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