Wattflyer RC Network: RC Universe :: RCU Magazine :: RCU Forums :: RCU Classifieds :: RCU User Reviews :: RCU YouTube
Home Who's Online Calendar Today's Posts RealTime Post Spy Mark Forums Read
Go Back   WattFlyer RC Electric Flight Forums - Discuss radio control eflight > R/C Electric Power - Batteries, Chargers, ESCs and More > Power Systems
Register Members List Wattflyer Extras Articles Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Social Groups

Power Systems Talk about motors, ESC speed controllers, gear drives, propellers, power system simulators and all power system related topics

Thank you for your support (hide ads)
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2018, 02:39 AM   #1
rixonm
rixonm
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default Power/Batteries/ESC's

Hello electric bro's. I need to discuss a few points, not sure which forum to go to, so will start here . Have been flying electric now for a few years, my only other exposure to model planes was control line, some 40 years ago !
My current flyer is a 1540mm MSX-R, 1300w motor on 6S 5A battery, which goes well !

Recently I bought a Rimfire 1.60 motor and CC 80A HV ESC, both rated at max 12S.
Looking at other users with this motor, they have used 10S and a 18x8 prop, which should not exceed the motors continuous rating of 2500W.

Q - As I have a series of 6S batteries, I was hoping to use 2 of these in series, and then 'travel adjust' the throttle channel down to limit the max W's pulled with this same prop.
Is there any real problem with this idea ?

Q - Can you get more usable energy out of a higher C rated battery ?? Meaning if you have one 25C and another 50C of the same cell count and current capacity, will the higher C battery give better flight times on the same motor load ?
Does this all come down to the energy wasted as heat on the lower C rated battery ? The higher C rated batteries are heavier, so a disadvantage there !

Q - Series or parallel batteries on higher power models.
Parallel will pull more current, but high current ESC's are still cheaper than high voltage ESC's. One problem being with the same prop size, you would need a motor with twice the KV rating for the lower voltage, which don't exist.
I assume a motor designed to run on higher V would not be as efficient on the lower V. The prop would need to be 1.414 x larger than that used on higher V ?

Any advice would be appreciated !
rixonm is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 03:50 AM   #2
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 11,525
View solentlife's Gallery47
Thanked 532 Times in 524 Posts
Club: Founder Member Ventspils RC Club. Ex Waltham Chase and Meon Valley Soaring.
Awards Showcase

Scratchbuilders Award  Scratchbuilders Award  Outstanding Contributor Award  125mph Speed Demon 
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (19)
Default

Originally Posted by rixonm View Post
Hello electric bro's. I need to discuss a few points, not sure which forum to go to, so will start here . Have been flying electric now for a few years, my only other exposure to model planes was control line, some 40 years ago !
My current flyer is a 1540mm MSX-R, 1300w motor on 6S 5A battery, which goes well !
Nice one.

Recently I bought a Rimfire 1.60 motor and CC 80A HV ESC, both rated at max 12S.
Looking at other users with this motor, they have used 10S and a 18x8 prop, which should not exceed the motors continuous rating of 2500W.

Q - As I have a series of 6S batteries, I was hoping to use 2 of these in series, and then 'travel adjust' the throttle channel down to limit the max W's pulled with this same prop.
Is there any real problem with this idea ?
Two batterys of same size and rating are fine in series to create your 12S 'pack' ... if you check out LiPo - you will see they are in effrect just that inside the packaging.
Adjusting throttle channel is generally not a good idea - but yes it works. To be honest - I used to do this but now don't bother ... I just learnt to play throttle more. What you can do to help is to use a Throttle Curve so most of the stick travel is spread out to give more fine control in the lower rpm ranges, leaving max as full ..

Q - Can you get more usable energy out of a higher C rated battery ?? Meaning if you have one 25C and another 50C of the same cell count and current capacity, will the higher C battery give better flight times on the same motor load ?
Does this all come down to the energy wasted as heat on the lower C rated battery ? The higher C rated batteries are heavier, so a disadvantage there !
If you are getting hot batterys - then you are using too low a C rating ..
so the answer is actually no. You should be using two packs of similar rating suitable for the setup.

Q - Series or parallel batteries on higher power models.
Parallel will pull more current, but high current ESC's are still cheaper than high voltage ESC's. One problem being with the same prop size, you would need a motor with twice the KV rating for the lower voltage, which don't exist.
I assume a motor designed to run on higher V would not be as efficient on the lower V. The prop would need to be 1.414 x larger than that used on higher V ?

Any advice would be appreciated !
Doesn't really make any difference overall as you will be flying to speed and lift requirement to complete action. That will determine prop / motor combo etc.
My view is to stick with the recc'd or usual setup shown to work ... re-inventing the wheel though does tend be a modellers trait !!

Two things though :

1. I assume you have a Wattmeter ? If not please get one and all your power questions are easily answered then.
2. For just a couple of $ ... register something like "www.ecalc" so you can enter power data to see results before committing money on bits ...

Cheers
Nigel

222kph PKJ,EDF Concorde, Mini4,Mig3,T45,PKJ twin,ME109,Edge540,Cessna182,Skymaster Biplane,F15,F16,Badius,Ultimate,SE5,Qbee10,450 Heli,V911,J3 Cub Founder 9x forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flysky_RC_radio/
- Subscribe my Youtube: "solentlifeuk"
solentlife is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 05:07 AM   #3
gyrocptr
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Neenah Wisconsin
Posts: 242
Thanked 43 Times in 40 Posts
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

CC 80A HV ESC, ....6S batteries, I was hoping to use 2 of these in series, and then 'travel adjust' the throttle channel down to limit the max W's pulled with this same prop...

Careful here: If wide-open throttle (peak amperage) with this prop/setup draws more than 80A, the ESC can burn up. Limiting the throttle does not reduce peak amperage thru the ESC; just changes the time-length of the peak-amperage-pulses thru the ESC.
Checking peak amps with Watt-meter is essential.
If you insist on using 12S, you should change to smaller prop to keep peak amps below the rated amps of the ESC.
gyrocptr is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 05:16 AM   #4
rixonm
rixonm
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

Thanks Nigel.

Yes I understand putting batteries together like this, all use the same C rating.
I was actually adjusting the throttle curve, which works, just wondered if it made the ESC work harder.
The C rating point still confuses me, I don't get hot batteries as I take care of them. I have the little 3 digit voltmeter from HK in each plane. Lets you ensure you battery is charged before flying, and you don't take too much out during. So high C rating batteries are for the EDF guys who pull lots of power over a short flight ??

Yes I have a Wattmeter, my RX has telemetry, and yes I subscribe to ecalc !

I have just done some test using 2 x 4S 3A 45C Graphene's ( so 8S ), with the 18x8 prop. My older 5S 5A 20C batteries just dont cut it anymore under high load.
Telemetry from Castle Creation ESC, via Spektrum AR8010T RX says 1350W, my HK MegaMultimeter says 1289W, and eCalc says 1158W.
Too much variation here !!! 1150 to 1350 = ~ 20%

So this is a problem as I can not test on 12S, without having a reliable W measurement. On 12S with this prop, eCalc say 3450W, which is way over the max 'burst' rating of 3200W. Using the HK meter, I got to 3200W at 1/2 throttle.Telemetry says 3900W on that test. I was using 2 new 6S 5A 65C Graphene's.
rixonm is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 05:33 AM   #5
rixonm
rixonm
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

Thanks gyrocptr.

Looking at the telemetry file I could see the FET temperatures at there highest when I had the throttle limited. I keep an eye on the current, the meter shows max A, and W.
When trying smaller props, they start to cavitate, this can be seen on the telemetry, as the RPM increases out of synch with the power curve.
I may have to buy some matching 4S batteries, so I can make up 10S packs, to get the right V for this motors KV.

Working with what I have currently ( pun ? ) if I put a 4S 3A 45C and a 6S 5A 65C in series, I will have a 10S 3A 45C pack I assume ? Maybe use this to test 10S at least.
rixonm is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 03:48 PM   #6
gyrocptr
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Neenah Wisconsin
Posts: 242
Thanked 43 Times in 40 Posts
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

Another caution: Watt-meter only displays average current. Displays peak amperage only at full throttle. If your setup draws 80A (average) before you reach full throttle you may be burning out the ESC (a little bit at a time, damage is cumulative). ESC throttle-control is achieved by pulsing (on-off) the peak amperage.
It's possible to over-amp the ESC without exceeding wattage limit.

Keep in mind: with electric motor, current (power) draw always drops as rpm increases (smaller prop). Max current draw (max-wattage =>motor burn-out) occurs when motor is stalled (full stop).
gyrocptr is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 05:29 PM   #7
ron_van_sommeren
homo ludens modelisticus
 
ron_van_sommeren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: near Nijmegen, Nederland
Posts: 960
Thanked 184 Times in 163 Posts
Club: www.rmvc-cumulus.nl
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

/* Oops. Wrong planet. */

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
• Without a watt-meter you are in the dark, until something starts to glow •
• e-flight calculators • watt-meters • diy motor tips • Cumulus MFC •
ron_van_sommeren is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 05:35 PM   #8
ron_van_sommeren
homo ludens modelisticus
 
ron_van_sommeren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: near Nijmegen, Nederland
Posts: 960
Thanked 184 Times in 163 Posts
Club: www.rmvc-cumulus.nl
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

Originally Posted by rixonm View Post
... which should not exceed the motors continuous rating of 2500W. ...
Max.current is more important than max.power.

It is a good practice to have some headroom built in.
About derating motors, controllers, batteries, electronics in general:
Originally Posted by rixonm View Post
... As I have a series of 6S batteries, I was hoping to use 2 of these in series ...
Same make, type, capacity, C-value and history. Use/charge them as one pack.

Originally Posted by rixonm View Post
...and then 'travel adjust' the throttle channel down to limit the max W's pulled with this same prop. ...
This will reduce battery current, but motor current will not decrease as much.

Also ...
If current at wide open throttle is too high for the controller then reducing throttle to get current below ESC max.current is not a good idea. It is even harder on ESC than to keep overamping at full throttle. Better to prop down a bit to reduce current.
See:
Originally Posted by rixonm View Post
... Can you get more usable energy out of a higher C rated battery ?? ...
A little bit, because their internal resistance is lower.
C-ratings are fairly useless without an life/cycle indication.

Originally Posted by rixonm View Post
... you would need a motor with twice the Kv rating for the lower voltage, which don't exist. ...
Kv (in rpm/volt) is only about matching voltage and prop rpm.
It is not a rating, not a figure of merit. More turns in the motorcoils gives lower Kv, less turns gives higher Kv.

From
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=27290157#post27290157
Originally Posted by scirocco View Post
While an absolutely critical part of the system ...
... Kv is actually the item one should choose last.
  1. Decide your peak power requirement based on the weight of the model and how you want to fly it.
  2. Pick a preferred cell count (voltage) and pack capacity for how to deliver the power.
  3. Pick a prop that will a) fit on the model and b) fly the model how you want - often as big as will fit is a good choice, but if high speed is the goal, a smaller diameter higher pitch prop will be more appropriate.
  4. Look for a size class of motors that will handle the peak power - a very conservative guide is to allow 1 gram motor weight for every 3 watts peak power.
  5. Then, look for a motor in that weight range that has the Kv to achieve the power desired with the props you can use - a calculator such as eCalc allows very quick trial and error zooming in on a decent choice. For a desired power and prop, you'd need higher Kv if using a 3 cell pack compared to a 4 cell pack. Or for a desired power and cell count, you'd need higher Kv if driving a smaller diameter high speed prop compared to a larger prop for a slow model.

The reason I suggest picking Kv last is that prop choices have bounds - the diameter that will physically fit and the minimum size that can absorb the power you want. OTOH, combinations of voltage and Kv are much less constrained - at least before you purchase the components.

So Kv is not a figure of merit, in that higher or lower is better, it is simply a motor characteristic that you exploit to make your power system do what you want, within the constraints you have, e.g. limited prop diameter, if it's a pusher configuration, or if you already have a bunch of 3S packs and don't want to buy more, and so on.

Minor lay-out changes by RvS

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
• Without a watt-meter you are in the dark, until something starts to glow •
• e-flight calculators • watt-meters • diy motor tips • Cumulus MFC •
ron_van_sommeren is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 01:40 AM   #9
rixonm
rixonm
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

Thanks Ron.

I purchased this motor and ESC at a great price, so that's where I am starting. I have 10 x 6S batteries of varying age/C rating, and had assumed I would be able to use a pair of these as per the motors specs.
I have just gone back to the motors spec sheet, and recommended props range from 16x8 to 18x8, V from 9S to 12S. Obviously the 18x8 on 12S will pull too much power.
Looking at eCalc 16x8 on 12S will give 2418W max, 16x10 gives 2871W max with a higher speed.
I had in my mind that the 18x8 was the right prop, but will go smaller dia and not add a curve to the throttle to limit things.
I will do some tests with my new 12S 5A 65C Graphene set and put the data here for anyone who is interested.

I knew that the higher C batteries just let you pull the power quicker, and did not in reality have a higher effective energy volume. I think that they last longer, as they are made to a higher spec which will make them better value over time.

Thanks for you interest and the references to the other data !
rixonm is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 04:35 AM   #10
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 11,525
View solentlife's Gallery47
Thanked 532 Times in 524 Posts
Club: Founder Member Ventspils RC Club. Ex Waltham Chase and Meon Valley Soaring.
Awards Showcase

Scratchbuilders Award  Scratchbuilders Award  Outstanding Contributor Award  125mph Speed Demon 
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (19)
Default

"not add a curve to the throttle to limit things" ....

A throttle curve does not limit things ... END LIMIT does ... which are two different Tx functions.

Using a curve allows you finer throttle control where you need it but still allows full power. Its similar in a way to Expo but with greater flexibility to adjust throttle response where you have greatest effect.

Nigel

222kph PKJ,EDF Concorde, Mini4,Mig3,T45,PKJ twin,ME109,Edge540,Cessna182,Skymaster Biplane,F15,F16,Badius,Ultimate,SE5,Qbee10,450 Heli,V911,J3 Cub Founder 9x forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flysky_RC_radio/
- Subscribe my Youtube: "solentlifeuk"
solentlife is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 05:25 AM   #11
rixonm
rixonm
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

Hi Nigel.

On my Spektrum TX, in the throttle curve adjustments, you can reduce the throttle value for max stick position. I adjusted it to = 40% as a test, it gave 2216W, then to 43% which gave 2448W.
I realise that this is not the thing to do, so will go to a smaller prop instead.
Next problem I have is that the smaller props I have tested -APC- style, seem to cavitate. The 18x8 prop initially tested is a nice Xoar wood type, which has so much more mass than the thin plastic APC ones. The eCalc tool considers this ( prop pitch speed ) and does not show a warning on these smaller prop values, so I am unsure as to what the problem is .
rixonm is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 01:46 PM   #12
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 11,525
View solentlife's Gallery47
Thanked 532 Times in 524 Posts
Club: Founder Member Ventspils RC Club. Ex Waltham Chase and Meon Valley Soaring.
Awards Showcase

Scratchbuilders Award  Scratchbuilders Award  Outstanding Contributor Award  125mph Speed Demon 
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (19)
Default

Originally Posted by rixonm View Post
Hi Nigel.

On my Spektrum TX, in the throttle curve adjustments, you can reduce the throttle value for max stick position. I adjusted it to = 40% as a test, it gave 2216W, then to 43% which gave 2448W.
I realise that this is not the thing to do, so will go to a smaller prop instead.
Next problem I have is that the smaller props I have tested -APC- style, seem to cavitate. The 18x8 prop initially tested is a nice Xoar wood type, which has so much more mass than the thin plastic APC ones. The eCalc tool considers this ( prop pitch speed ) and does not show a warning on these smaller prop values, so I am unsure as to what the problem is .
All Curve settings have ability to bring max value down ... min value up etc.

But limiting servo / throttle travel usually is done by End Limit Function or other name End Point Adjustment.

The curve is a great tool where you need fine precision of throttle especially with Helicopters. Often with a Heli the throttle stick is controlling pitch of blades as well as the motor rpm. So you set a curve that brings throttle up quickly when pitch is zero and then have a flat or fine section where heli really works - where the pitch is being used along with collective ..

Adapting curve for a fixed wing ... you can set any variation of fine control / quick increase etc. in any part of the stick movement to suit your needs. For example you could have very quick increase to 10% throttle and then a very gradual increase over a lot of stick movement to 60% where you cruise fly ... and then a quick up to max ... It basically gives you better control of motor rpm in the working range you use.

As to cavitation - yes you will have that ... BUT its at static run ... ALL props cavitate to a point when static..... just some more than others. But if you let the model move forward as speed increases - the prop bites more. Trick is if cavitation is serious ... is a stepped increase in throttle at launch or take-off.

Nigel

222kph PKJ,EDF Concorde, Mini4,Mig3,T45,PKJ twin,ME109,Edge540,Cessna182,Skymaster Biplane,F15,F16,Badius,Ultimate,SE5,Qbee10,450 Heli,V911,J3 Cub Founder 9x forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flysky_RC_radio/
- Subscribe my Youtube: "solentlifeuk"
solentlife is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 10:26 PM   #13
ron_van_sommeren
homo ludens modelisticus
 
ron_van_sommeren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: near Nijmegen, Nederland
Posts: 960
Thanked 184 Times in 163 Posts
Club: www.rmvc-cumulus.nl
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

Originally Posted by rixonm View Post
... that the smaller props I have tested -APC- style, seem to cavitate ...
It would stall: thrust (lift) decreases whereas drag increases.
Cavitation can only occur in liquids, and is a different process.
Video of cavitation in a gear-pump
Cavitation_in_a_gear_pump.ogv.480p.webm (wikipedia)

Originally Posted by wikipedia
... Cavitation is the formation of vapour cavities in a liquid, small liquid-free zones ("bubbles" or "voids"), that are the consequence of forces acting upon the liquid. It usually occurs when a liquid is subjected to rapid changes of pressure that cause the formation of cavities in the liquid where the pressure is relatively low. When subjected to higher pressure, the voids implode and can generate an intense shock wave.

Cavitation is a significant cause of wear in some engineering contexts. Collapsing voids that implode near to a metal surface cause cyclic stress through repeated implosion. This results in surface fatigue of the metal causing a type of wear also called "cavitation". The most common examples of this kind of wear are to pump impellers, and bends where a sudden change in the direction of liquid occurs. ...

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
• Without a watt-meter you are in the dark, until something starts to glow •
• e-flight calculators • watt-meters • diy motor tips • Cumulus MFC •
ron_van_sommeren is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 10:31 PM   #14
ron_van_sommeren
homo ludens modelisticus
 
ron_van_sommeren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: near Nijmegen, Nederland
Posts: 960
Thanked 184 Times in 163 Posts
Club: www.rmvc-cumulus.nl
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

Originally Posted by rixonm View Post
... The eCalc tool considers this ( prop pitch speed ) and does not show a warning on these smaller prop values, so I am unsure as to what the problem is .
Dedicated eCalc Q&A thread, by developer Markus Mόller. Questions will help him improve software, user interface and manual:
eCalc: Q&A for propCalc, fanCalc, heliCalc, xcopterCalc
Include screendumps if possible.

A tutorial on using eCalc

eCalc accurate?
eCalc vs Motocalc vs Reality

Prettig weekend Ron

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
• Without a watt-meter you are in the dark, until something starts to glow •
• e-flight calculators • watt-meters • diy motor tips • Cumulus MFC •
ron_van_sommeren is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2018, 09:18 AM   #15
rixonm
rixonm
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (0)
Default

Hi all, some more measurements !!

8S 4A 45C Graphene batteries, 16x10 prop (17x10 cut down / balanced) @ full stick

HK Megameter 898W 28.78A 6630RPM
eCalc 957W 33.15A 6731RPM 28.7V
CC TLM file 1006W 32.72A 6571RPM 30.8V

100A Shunt resistor 28.8A

If I use the HK meter, I will get the mid W's and RPM values !
rixonm is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 08:26 AM   #16
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 11,525
View solentlife's Gallery47
Thanked 532 Times in 524 Posts
Club: Founder Member Ventspils RC Club. Ex Waltham Chase and Meon Valley Soaring.
Awards Showcase

Scratchbuilders Award  Scratchbuilders Award  Outstanding Contributor Award  125mph Speed Demon 
iTrader: (0)
Friends: (19)
Default

Funny ... I have always found eCalc to be a bit on the pessimistic side ... which has been good. I have always ended up with better.

Wattmeter is the baby though ... all depends on that.

Nigel

222kph PKJ,EDF Concorde, Mini4,Mig3,T45,PKJ twin,ME109,Edge540,Cessna182,Skymaster Biplane,F15,F16,Badius,Ultimate,SE5,Qbee10,450 Heli,V911,J3 Cub Founder 9x forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flysky_RC_radio/
- Subscribe my Youtube: "solentlifeuk"
solentlife is offline  
  Reply With Quote
Reply

  WattFlyer RC Electric Flight Forums - Discuss radio control eflight > R/C Electric Power - Batteries, Chargers, ESCs and More > Power Systems


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:30 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005 WattfFlyer.com
RCU Eflight HQ

Charities we support Select: Yorkie Rescue  ::  Crohn's & Colitis Foundation



Page generated in 0.23333 seconds with 50 queries