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HK Guan li "Harrier"

Old 01-28-2012, 11:46 PM
  #1  
pattern14
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Default HK Guan li "Harrier"

About the middle of last year, I took a step sideways and bought 3 inexpensive ARF edf's, instead of scratchbuilding one. For such low prices, I could experiment with different applications without using up my much more expensive EPP stock. Having settled on the HET 6904 and w3 typhoon motor combo, I just needed an internal fuse mounted set up, as opposed to my usual external nacelle system. For $40.00 AUD, plus postage, the Guan li "Harrier" looked like the ticket. It doesn't have VTOL though; it would cost a LOT more than $40.00 for that You can spend more and get the one equipped with servo's and hardware etc, but like most of the ARF stuff out there, it is pretty much bottom end in quality. So the bare airframe arrived, in a big, big box, and the plane itself is much larger than anticipated. It also came with one of those awful 70mm fans that sell for about $5.00 on ebay, but maybe I'll find a use for it someday. The plane itself is surprisingly scale, and would actually make a nice static model with some creative artwork and attention to detail. As it is, the pieces all fitted together quite well, and seemed to sit quite sqare, with no obvious gaps or other misalignment One of the reasons I chose the Harrier was because of the enormous twin air intakes, which negates having a plane that has that fish -mouth appearence. The quality of the foam is similar to the Starmax He 162 that I bought at the same time; barely above beer cooler crap, worse than elapor, but easily sanded and glued or taped. The control surfaces are attached the same as the Starmax product as well, and looks like they could do with some reinforcement. It is very light though, but appears quite fragile and easily damaged; a decent crash would total it. So far, I have put a metal geared central servo for the ailerons, and am using two seperate servo's for the elevators. The original tail servo set up looked too flimsy for my liking, and it won't have any under carriage, so the nose wheel servo won't be needed. Hand launching this one will be interesting, as the fuse is quite wide, and there is not much to grip onto to. Hope to have it done in a couple of days, once I figure out the little mods that need doing....cheers
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:56 AM
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baz49exe
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Lovely looking model Michael and no packaging tape or cloroplast sheet in sight
Seriously though, I'm really looking forward to see how this project works out for you and how the lack of the above mentioned enables it to survive your flying conditions. Will it be for quiet days or are you just going to go for it anyway
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:13 PM
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Default just amazing

Hey Barry, didn't realise you read the EDF forum; I usually only post here to talk about something that didn't work Not this time though After only afew hours work, this one was good to go. I decided early on that, even though I don't gamble, that I would risk $40.00, as my time is far more valuable. So, apart from the tail servo mod, edf upgrade and placing electrics in various parts of the fuse to achieve correct COG, I did not really change much. Adding spars and impact proof covering is very time consuming, and I wanted to see how it would fly first. The tail servos were mounted externally, underneath the horizontal stabs, and connected by very short pushrods. I tried making a "Y" connection and one central servo, but the Harriers unusual anhedral tail section did not allow for it. I hot glued a square of balsa to the servo, then hot glued that to the foam surface, a method I have used with success on some combat planes. If a servo fails, you just cut through the balsa layer without damaging servo or foam. The whole underside of the stab was then carefully covered in bi directional tape for added security. The ESC was located in the port air intake, to aid in cooling, help with the COG ( the Harrier is actually nose heavy) and be protected. The directions show it in the cockpit, but no air would reach it there, and the HET 6904 set up really generates some ESC heat. I "soldered" a hole through the cockpit wall and passed the battery lead and deans plug through it into where the battery sits. The air intakes are big enough that the slight obstruction caused by the ESC won't make any difference. The battery is supposedly held in with a velco strap, but would not reach around the 2200mah 4s lipo, so I packed the cockpit with buuble wrap and it held the battery perfectly ( another combat trick). You cant even see it through the canopy, which is held in place by ingenious magnets. The wing securing screw would not take up, so the wings were taped onto the fuse, just for something different......... The weather here is unusually hot, and surprisingly calm, with only a 10 knot breeze, so ideal conditions for the maiden. With some trepidation, i.e, styro type foam, EDF, big fuse , little wings, anhedral etc, I checked everything again, then handlaunched into the breeze on full power. It simply left my hand like on a guidewire, and flew in a shallow climb into the blue. No time to be amazed, I turned and flew back over my head, the screaming of the Edf mixed with the "Whoosh" of the airframe. I climbed a little higher and backed off the power in increments. At half throttle, she flew like a slow flier, very stable, and quite realistic in the air. It does not fly like a $40.00 plane Tight turns, no hint of stalls, not at all twitchy or squirrely, just amazing for a maiden flight. The Harrier is not very steamlined, but flies out of all proportion to it shape. It is almost trainer like in it's stability. Anhedral is a new concept to me, and a somewhat scary one, but no longer Cutting power while fairly high showed quite a remarkable glide, and keeping the weight down with this one has seemingly paid off. No draggy undercarriage, added ballast weight or nose wheel servo must surely help. She came in very gracefully, and landed in the oats with no damage to the brittle foam, although bits of paint were chipped away from the wings LE from contact wiyh the oat stalks. It will probably need some protective strips along there and on the under belly as well. All in all though, just a brilliant first flight, and the next two subsequent ones were just as impressive. Really good value from an unlikely contender. more later, cheers
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:57 PM
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Hi Micheal, luckily I picked up your thread on "Today's Posts". That sounds a great maiden and first few flights. Just shows just what can be done with a stock airframe doesn't it. Funnily enough you have again come up with an idea that I can use straight away. I need to mount a servo under the tail of the Hampden and the way you fitted the elevator servos into the Harrier is just perfect for the job. I was going to go with closed loop but tail mounted would be far better.
When are you going to fit vectored thrust nozzles ??? ( I bet you're thinking of a way!)
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Old 01-30-2012, 01:30 AM
  #5  
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Default vectored thrust?.......

Glad to hear this thread gave you an idea for your Hampden build I've lost count of the innovations I've picked up from your threads ( making canopies comes to mind though). Vectored thrust.....hmmmm, for VTOL perhaps.....I'd need 4 times the thrust, lots of linkages and an enormous battery, but it COULD be done The exhaust nozzles are a bifurcation that exits both sides of the fuse at an angle of about @30 degrees ( I haven't measured it ), which means no direct thrust; the front two are just cosmetic, and blanked off. I was quite surprised at the thrust produced considering that it can't be all that efficient. A twin motor set up is a possibility, but would take a fair bit of cutting and refabricating, plus the weight gain. I would need to buy another one perhaps as a project. This one flies far better than expected, so I don't intend to do a huge amount to it, apart from doing my best to avoid crashing it.. Not sure how she'll go in the wind, but I'm sure to find out soon enoughIt may just turn out to be a fair weather flier, similar to the He 162. Speaking of which, the Harrier is definitely the better of the two, which considering how well the Heinkel flew, is quite a compliment. So apart from mild crash -proofing, the only thing I'll do to this one is making it a bit more visible, as the battleship grey is difficult to see against the evening sky. Maybe a red tail fin, or yellow LE stips for orientation. Who knows, I might end up with an Argentinian Mirage for comparison purposes.........
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:19 AM
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Hi .... interested in this model .... as Baz knows - I love unusual and all for 'own' ideas - especially when it disproves the 'experts' !!

I was hoping though that the set-up would reflect nearer stock - as I would love to know its real ability stock.

As to $5 EDF's ... so far I've had good out of the cheap EDF's and only upgrade motors / LiPo's so far.

The Harrier would be more for my scale ideas than performance ........ again as Baz knows - that's an area that I am working seriously in - SPEED and MORE speed !

I think a model Co. to brave the Harrier is a real feat ... not the easiest to power.
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:12 AM
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Yes you guessed,I was joking Michael The practicality of an actual vectored conversion is so far out of my comfort and experience zone it's just not true. However I will bet that the actual weight gain incurred as a result of the process will produce a flying beast instead of the beauty you have at present.
IMHO Solent life is spot on with his comments regarding experimentation. It must be great to achieve things which "experts" say can't be done.
Barnes Wallis encountered this frequently and I believe he said something like:-
" Ex:- means out of date or irrelevant "
" SPURT:- a drip under pressure"

Last edited by baz49exe; 02-09-2012 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:17 AM
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Barnes Wallis ...... 5 tons of bomb bouncing on water ! First sketches of an idea that led to supersonic airliner .....

Dare I say - da Vinci of the 20th Century ?
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:20 AM
  #9  
pattern14
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Default some more thoughts on the Harrier

Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Hi .... interested in this model .... as Baz knows - I love unusual and all for 'own' ideas - especially when it disproves the 'experts' !!

I was hoping though that the set-up would reflect nearer stock - as I would love to know its real ability stock.

As to $5 EDF's ... so far I've had good out of the cheap EDF's and only upgrade motors / LiPo's so far.

The Harrier would be more for my scale ideas than performance ........ again as Baz knows - that's an area that I am working seriously in - SPEED and MORE speed !

I think a model Co. to brave the Harrier is a real feat ... not the easiest to power.
Hi Solentlife, just to make it fair, I put in the stock system as supplied from the factory just for comparison. Yes, it does fly, but needs full throttle to keep airborne, and nothing in reserve. Flight times were quite short, and the whole set up sounded seriously stressed. Putting in the HET 6904 and W3 typhoon was an immediate improvement, and I would not go back to the stock set up. Much smoother, much longer flight times, and a noticeable increase in thrust. For 4 times the price you'd expect better anyway I'll post again soon with some more feedback; cheers
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:40 AM
  #10  
solentlife
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Many thanks ... honest you didn't have to go that far .....

But it's answered all questions now ..... as I suspected.

What LiPo ... S / mAh / C ?
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:43 AM
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Default some more info...

Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Many thanks ... honest you didn't have to go that far .....

But it's answered all questions now ..... as I suspected.

What LiPo ... S / mAh / C ?
No problem Solentlife, I had intended to do it anyway, as I am always curious about these ARF's and their stock set up. Most of these types of aircraft have unrealised potential. The standard battery for this one is a 4s1p 1800 mah, probably a 20-25 "c' rating. The One I used is a 2200mah 4s1p 40 "c" rating, as EDF's tend to be pretty hard on lipo's compared to prop planes. As stated in my previous post, I get noticeably better performance in all aspects. The only thing to watch is ESC cooling, and I always use a minimum 40 amp ESC for EDF's regardless. The one for this is mounted inside the starboard air intake, and recieves a continous blast of cold air from the induction, regardless of external conditions. It is barely warm when touched even after a full throttle workout. The big bilateral air intakes of the Harrier are great for this, and it hides the ESC really well. You don't even know its there unless you look inside the air intake. You have to secure it well though, as having it sucked into the impellor would not be pretty. Been flying her a couple of times a day for the last two weeks now, and am really pleased with it. The direct link elevator servos make for nice tidy loops as well, as the standard set up was apparently a bit flimsy. She barrel rolls very neatly; almost as crisp as my combat planes. Speaking of which........I tried her in a mock dog fight with my youngest son, and she held her own aerobatically in close quarters, but could not compete speed wise. Any collision would have vapourised it as well. One thing it does not like is flying inverted- very unhappy although achievable. Wind wise, she does better than most parkflyers, although gusts tend to make for the wobbles. Trying to tip stall is pretty difficult too; try as I might she won't fall out of the sky regardless of how slow the turn is. The quality of the foam however is the only real let down. She already looks very battle scarred, just from landing, and any kind of abrasion results in chunks being torn out from the belly and wing LE. The grey camo is also hard to orientate on cloudy days, so maybe a more visible colour coding may help. Either way, I'm having lots of fun with this one, and it really has restored my faith in EDF, which has been sorely tested over the years. More later, cheers
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:12 AM
  #12  
kenchiroalpha
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Cool

Hi
Lovely looking Harrier
Heres one of mine
A Profile frame and quad powered
Do enjoy
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BGlh7s6Xi4[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsAiw1tj3rQ[/media]
Take care dear friend
Yours Hank
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:41 AM
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pattern14
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Default bound to happen....

Hi Frank; thats a pretty wild looking Harrier you have there. The VTOL thing is quite an eyecatcher.... Well, it was only a matter of time before I made a mistake Flying at the edge of vision with a camo plane low in the cloudy sky, I mistook up for down and planted here in the potato patch.. It was a low speed nose in, but totally destroyed the cockpit area. As could be expected, I was a little annoyed for being so careless, but it was inevitable when you start pushing boundaries. Undeterred, I made a makeshift coreflute nose, and took to the skies again Disaster struck about 50 metres up, when the fan exploded and she fell out of the sky for about 20 metres before recovering into a shallow glide and landing amongst the oats. Closer examination revealed that some debris was stuck inside the air intakes, from the initial crash, and had been sucked into the fan, which was at max revs during take off. I should have known to check, as this has happened before. Not to worry, I'll replace the broken bits and build a proper replacement nose, and try again. Why don't I sound surprised.... more later cheers
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Old 08-09-2012, 07:09 AM
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Default some more experimenting......

Some time has past since last post, and so far so good. I replaced the exploding fan, and have flown numerous times without incident since then...... If you exclude nearly drowning in the dam trying to retrieve it that is. I forgot to secure the canopy, which promptly blew off, and the bubble wrap protecting the battery started to come out in the wind. Not wanting it sucked into the fan as well, I cut power, and glided gracefully into the reed covered dam at the bottom of the property. It was a freezing cold day, the icy water really took my breath swimming out to it, and I got my feet tangled in old fencing wire trying to swim back. I struggled back to the bank, and ended up gasping for breath climbing out through the mud. Still, I got the Harrier back undamaged.....just a taste of the Falklands I told myself After she was all dried out, I totally covered it in clear packing tape, and then reinforced the high impact bits with bi-directional tape. All up, there was negligable weight gain, and no change in performance. The covering really helped, as the foam is no longer ripped away from landing and foliage abrasion. Next was to mod the exhaust ducts so the thrust was directly back, and not at an angle. After much thought, I made some clear plastic thrust tubes which redirects the exhaust back under the tail, and is not overly obvious. The outlet diameter is slightly smaller as well, but this can be easily changed. Now I have to wait untill the latest blizzard is over to see if the performance has actually improved, before attempting any thing else...more later...
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:21 AM
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baz49exe
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Michael, good to know that with your usual appliance of science you have the Harrier back into the air.
Are you developing a new aspect of our hobby on the lines of endurance RC flying??
Fighting weeds and wire in freezing water is some serious activity old friend.

I'm on a downer. Had an opp on my thumb and now the dammed thing's infected. If it doesn't improve I might have to change my flying style and swap over stick functions. That would be fun wouldn't it???
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:59 AM
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Default arrester hook

Hey Barry; what a hassle. All going well you'll get some decent antibiotics and be back in the air in no time. If it helps, do you remember the time a couple of years back when the Me 262 chewed my thumb on handlaunch? It was pretty hacked about, and i could not fly very well at all with it all taped up. Eventually it healed, with some impressive scars, but it was a definite bummer not being able to use the sticks. I still managed to use my 3 channel single stick futaba with slide throttle, but it was pretty clumsy. As for the Harrier with the new thrust angled nozzles, it was a big non event. If anything, performance was actually worse, so I guess redirecting thrust reduces efficiency, and a straight through system with appropriate inlet and outlet sizes is still the best way. So, I went back to standard thrust outlets again, and she flies well enough for now. The much better HET unit and esc provides a good enough improvement over stock anyway. On that note, the wind had dropped enough for the test flights, and I did some good comparison flights with varying outlet configuration. When the power suddenly dropped, I had to land fairly quickly, as the Harrier is no long distance glider. No choice but to come in with a tail wind, as there was not enough power or height to attempt another circuit, so she came in pretty quick. With the recently graded paddock, and the first new covering of soft oats, she had a nice slippery surface to grace. With the high landing speed, she slid past really quickly, and the high tail caught the lowest wire strand on the fence. The little projection on the tailfin acted like an arrester hook, and stopped it dead before ploughing into the cattle yard Sometimes, it just comes together. I can see myself having some great flights for some time to come with this one, on those all too rare calm days. More later.......cheers.
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:10 AM
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Michael, I had completely forgotten about your 262 prob "bite" but I'm really glad it healed up so well in the end.
In the back of my mind I knew why I didn't like throwing the BV 215 though
I'll bet that you are glad that you gave the vectored thrust a go on the Harrier. If it had been successful it would have been great from a scale point of view but not at the cost of degrading the flying performance.
I think it was a great call to remove it and return to the original configuration after all the effort you must have put in.
Glad you were rewarded with a good test flight.
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Old 08-11-2012, 04:11 PM
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I'm pretty happy with mine, but I built it to be as light as possible.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO55rEnIu34[/media]
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe 1320 View Post
I'm pretty happy with mine, but I built it to be as light as possible.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO55rEnIu34[/media]
Good to hear that Joe. I'm surprised that has not been more interest in this plane, as it is quite a decent flier, and for $40.00, it's pretty good value for money. There are lots of other edf's out there that cost more and do less. Happy flying
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