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Converting PZ Spitfire to brushless

Old 08-19-2008, 05:08 AM
  #126  
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I use a standard 4 mm prop adapter and a APC9x9E prop. I experimented with 4 different props and this is what worked the best with smooth running and acceptable amp draw. I just got some Zippy 2200 to try and got in initial burst of 425 watts on a fresh pack.

Oh almost forgot to mention... The Align motor is substantially lighter than the brushed can. I had to put some stick on weights in the cowl to offset. I can't remember what the CG is(I'll take a look and PM it you). Don't trust the one PZ gives. If memory serves me correct it was way to aft.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:18 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by barmonkey View Post
The Wattmeter is a very handy device indeed! Touching the motor to determine if it hot is a good idea...except when the motor isn't manufactured correctly, or built wrong...I actually got a burn from a cheapo Chinese motor!

groundrushesup, what is the kv of your motor?
Well, this one is a whopping 3550Kv, but it doesn't really behave like a motor rated as such. It is an "outrunner in a can" setup. I dunno, after I do some tests I'll post my results.

I'm eager to see the difference between this motor and my Eflite 6 series, rated at 2700Kv.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:27 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by groundrushesup View Post
Yeah it did cavitate like crazy.



On the weak side, right? So the GB was more straight on, or did you make the thrust angle more asymmetrical?
I stand corrected. I placed a single 4mm washer on the top 2 mounting screws between the gb and the firewall. I also measured the CG at 65mm on mine.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:28 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by groundrushesup View Post
Well, this one is a whopping 3550Kv, but it doesn't really behave like a motor rated as such. It is an "outrunner in a can" setup. I dunno, after I do some tests I'll post my results.

I'm eager to see the difference between this motor and my Eflite 6 series, rated at 2700Kv.

mmm alot... I had that same setup in my PZ Mustang.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:34 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by AETCBoom4 View Post
I stand corrected. I placed a single 4mm washer on the top 2 mounting screws between the gb and the firewall. I also measured the CG at 65mm on mine.

Nice, thanks for the info. And you are the man with the Mustang manifolds, what a great idea. I'd never noticed them until I took the airfram eout of the box today: the stock ones are shoite.

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Old 08-19-2008, 05:44 AM
  #131  
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Ground: your gonna love this plane on this setup. It can be real graceful or a speed demon. It's all only a push of the throttle away. In the second pic you can see how I laid my cf in. I used 3 pieces. One for each wing and a joiner piece under the belly pan. Secured with Gorilla glue and clear packing tape.

Yeah the Mustang manifolds look much better. MMM left overs from a retired(crashed experiment) Mustang:o
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:46 AM
  #132  
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Interesting What MotoCalc has to say about my setup, first with the APC 9x9E prop:

Originally Posted by MotoCalc
Motor: Align 430L; 3550rpm/V; 0.5A no-load; 0.017 Ohms.
Battery: Thunder Power Extreme Series (25C); 3 cells; 2070mAh @ 3.7V; 0.0114 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Mystery 40a ESC; 0.006 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: APC 9x9 Prop w/3:1 Gearbox; 9x9 (Pconst=1.17; Tconst=1) geared 3:1 (Eff=95%).
Airframe: Parkzone Spitfire; 230sq.in; 23.7oz RTF; 14.8oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.038; Cl=0.22; Clopt=0.47; Clmax=0.89.
Stats: 238 W/lb in; 207 W/lb out; 21mph stall; 29mph opt @ 33% (73:17, 59F); 43mph level @ 45% (34:32, 61F); 3657ft/min @ 90; -298ft/min @ -6.6.

Power System Notes:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (38.2A) falls approximately between the motor's maximum efficiency current (16.8A) and its current at theoretical maximum output (281.5A), thus making effective use of the motor.

Possible Aerodynamic Problems:

The static pitch speed (90mph) is much greater than 3 times the stall speed (21mph), which might make take-off or hand launching very difficult, and is inefficient in flight unless very high speeds are intended.
Pitch speed can be decreased by using a lower pitched and/or larger diameter propeller, a higher gear ratio, a lower cell count, or some combination of these methods.
The diameter (9.0in) to pitch (9.0in) ratio is less than 1.5:1, which will result in reduced propeller efficiency at low speeds (the propeller is stalled). Although this is not likely to affect flying characteristics, it may make take-off or hand launching difficult.

Aerodynamic Notes:

Due to some of the potential problems listed above, this model may require an experienced pilot.
The static thrust (38.3oz) to weight (23.7oz) ratio is 1.62:1, which will result in extremely short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and vertical climb-outs. This model will probably be able to perform a hover or torque roll.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (31.4oz) to weight (23.7oz) ratio is 1.33:1, which will give very steep climbs and incredible acceleration. This model can easily do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for any aerobatic maneuver.
And with the 10x6 MAS (not exact, can't get Pconst details on the MAS E series)

Originally Posted by MotoCalc
MotOpinion - Parkzone Spitfire Brushless Upgrade
1300ft above Sea Level, 29.92inHg, 54F

Motor: Align 430L; 3550rpm/V; 0.5A no-load; 0.017 Ohms.
Battery: Thunder Power Extreme Series (25C); 3 cells; 2070mAh @ 3.7V; 0.0114 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Mystery 40a ESC; 0.006 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: MAS 10x6 Prop w/3:1 Gearbox; 10x6 (Pconst=1.31; Tconst=0.936) geared 3:1 (Eff=93%).
Airframe: Parkzone Spitfire; 230sq.in; 23.5oz RTF; 14.7oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.038; Cl=0.22; Clopt=0.47; Clmax=0.89.
Stats: 259 W/lb in; 218 W/lb out; 21mph stall; 29mph opt @ 52% (48:19, 61F); 43mph level @ 74% (25:23, 64F); 3764ft/min @ 90; -297ft/min @ -6.6.

Possible Power System Problems:

The static full-throttle current (40.2A) exceeds the capability of the specified speed control (40A), which will most likely damage it.
Current can be decreased by using fewer cells, a smaller diameter or lower pitched propeller, a higher gear ratio, or some combination of these methods.

Power System Notes:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (38A) falls approximately between the motor's maximum efficiency current (16.8A) and its current at theoretical maximum output (281.8A), thus making effective use of the motor.

Aerodynamic Notes:

The static pitch speed (58mph) is within the range of approximately 2.5 to 3 times the model's stall speed (21mph), which is considered ideal for good performance.
With a wing loading of 14.7oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have flying characteristics suited to the intermediate pilot, for use in calm to moderate wind conditions.
The static thrust (48oz) to weight (23.5oz) ratio is 2.04:1, which will result in extremely short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and vertical climb-outs. This model will probably be able to perform a hover or torque roll.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (31.9oz) to weight (23.5oz) ratio is 1.35:1, which will give very steep climbs and incredible acceleration. This model can easily do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for any aerobatic maneuver.
Interesting. I think the 10x6 might work for this setup, too, and it would also allow me to fly with some of my lower C TP batteries, with proper throttle management.

Thoughts?
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:00 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by DetroitHawk View Post
You want the 2200 mah battery, and here is why

take 2200mah x 25C = 55amps of power you can draw safely.
The C rating of a Lipo battery is rule of thumb and definitely not a guarantee, I have some 2200Mah cells I only use in my Stryker now because they have a higher internal resistance so it's acually impossible to get the higher rates of discharge. All I am saying is a higher mah rating doesnt always guarantee more power.

You have to be mindful of the All Up Weight, those wings can only generate so much lift and adding weight ultimately raises your stall speed, puts more stress on the airframe and has the potential to do much more damage on a hard landing.

These are my experiences in modifying my Spitfire, I chose a heavy Eflite motor so had to add weight to the tail, I'm not comfortable with the AUW now and I'm going to have to add a carbon spar to the wing which is more weight lol.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:29 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by DetroitHawk View Post
That bag is not a bad idea depending on where you live i guess.

ok, i agree it always seems dangerous, and you never really know. These packs hold amazing amounts of energy. I am always at home where i can tend to them as they charge. If you live in a flat or a townhouse this could endanger others, so i'am alway am around.

I have never had an issue ever with charging in fact:





This happened over two years ago and the battery still works today.

just remember to be safe with them, and know when they aqre damaged they can react poorly. I however STILL have this battery as the black sheep and nothing has happened. I retired it, and now its only for my bench testing.

Thanks DH and Radweld.I think I might get the bag as Ive got kids living in the house so better to be safe than sorry.Im going to order the carbon rods can u tell me what ones I need please from this link (theres 2 pages of rods) http://www.rcmdirect.co.uk/store/ind...ort=20a&page=1
Im going to order the battery and charger later today too so not long now until I get started.Im curious to how many complete mess ups Im going to make lol.
Im looking at loads of chargers and I havnt seen any with a normal plug so I can charge the batteries in my house,they all seem to just have crocodile clips ? they must sell some with a normal plug dont they ?
would this charger be good ? http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop...ditem&item=190

Last edited by joeted; 08-19-2008 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:21 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by radweld View Post
The C rating of a Lipo battery is rule of thumb and definitely not a guarantee, I have some 2200Mah cells I only use in my Stryker now because they have a higher internal resistance so it's acually impossible to get the higher rates of discharge. All I am saying is a higher mah rating doesnt always guarantee more power.
remember with that motor and ESC combo he has you are looking at about 350watts of power at WOT, it is better to be safe with a higher C rating knowing the battery can discharge as a safe level for a longer period of time.

As far as the weight goes, i predict he will weigh just about the same weight as the stock plane. I know even after i added a rudder mod i was still under the stock RTF weight on my spitfire.
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:32 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by AETCBoom4 View Post
I use a standard 4 mm prop adapter and a APC9x9E prop. I experimented with 4 different props and this is what worked the best with smooth running and acceptable amp draw. I just got some Zippy 2200 to try and got in initial burst of 425 watts on a fresh pack.

Oh almost forgot to mention... The Align motor is substantially lighter than the brushed can. I had to put some stick on weights in the cowl to offset. I can't remember what the CG is(I'll take a look and PM it you). Don't trust the one PZ gives. If memory serves me correct it was way to aft.

Are these your batteries?
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:42 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by DetroitHawk View Post
remember with that motor and ESC combo he has you are looking at about 350watts of power at WOT, it is better to be safe with a higher C rating knowing the battery can discharge as a safe level for a longer period of time.

As far as the weight goes, i predict he will weigh just about the same weight as the stock plane. I know even after i added a rudder mod i was still under the stock RTF weight on my spitfire.
I think were both aiming for the right target, I would suggest a lower Mah but at least 25C rather than a battery with higher Mah and a lower C rating, my experience has shown me that the higher C rating will provide greater discharge rates. Kinda obvious I know but the 2200 20C cells I have should be able to cope with a 44A discharge and the 25C 1800mah should be able to cope with a 45A dischage. Now one battery is a 20C and one is a 25C, the 2200 20C battery sags when you give it a 30A load tripping my Lipo alert and the 25C battery keeps going not tripping the Lipo monitor. Personally, I would go with the higher C rated battery to guarantee the discharge rate at the expense of flight duration.
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:03 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by radweld View Post
I think were both aiming for the right target, I would suggest a lower Mah but at least 25C rather than a battery with higher Mah and a lower C rating, my experience has shown me that the higher C rating will provide greater discharge rates. Kinda obvious I know but the 2200 20C cells I have should be able to cope with a 44A discharge and the 25C 1800mah should be able to cope with a 45A dischage. Now one battery is a 20C and one is a 25C, the 2200 20C battery sags when you give it a 30A load tripping my Lipo alert and the 25C battery keeps going not tripping the Lipo monitor. Personally, I would go with the higher C rated battery to guarantee the discharge rate at the expense of flight duration.
Wouldnt one of these be perfect as its got a high mah and a high c rating ? http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop...ditem&item=598
Bit expensive but I just wanna know if Im starting to get it lol.
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:10 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by joeted View Post
Wouldnt one of these be perfect as its got a high mah and a high c rating ? http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop...ditem&item=598
Bit expensive but I just wanna know if Im starting to get it lol.
That battery is more then enough, you will be under 30 amps the majority of your flying, you just want to have the power to take off and to shoot you at insaneo speeds. That battery looks great, might be a little on the expensive side.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:19 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by joeted View Post
Wouldnt one of these be perfect as its got a high mah and a high c rating ? http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop...ditem&item=598
Bit expensive but I just wanna know if Im starting to get it lol.
Yep, this is more than capable however it won't fit into the battery tray in the Spitfire as its 112mm long, you can comfortably fit a 105mm Battery in there. It's also quite heavy a 176grams.

http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop...ditem&item=596 Is better, it's only slight down on duration but it will fit into the airframe and is 30 grams lighter. Unfortunately it seams it's out of stock though. Seriously have a look at those Loong Max batteries from GiantCod, 18 for a 25C battery, they are great value. Just don't buy any of the motors because they junk and a waste of money.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:23 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by radweld View Post
Yep, this is more than capable however it won't fit into the battery tray in the Spitfire as its 112mm long, you can comfortably fit a 105mm Battery in there. It's also quite heavy a 176grams.

http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop...ditem&item=596 Is better, it's only slight down on duration but it will fit into the airframe and is 30 grams lighter. Unfortunately it seams it's out of stock though. Seriously have a look at those Loong Max batteries from GiantCod, 18 for a 25C battery, they are great value. Just don't buy any of the motors because they junk and a waste of money.
ok thanks Radweld and DH, Ive just found this one which is heavier but its not too long so will fit by the looks of the dimensions it says in the listing plus its big on mah and c rating and its cheap, but is it too cheap that I should worry about it being crap ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-LIPO-BATTE...d=p3286.c0.m14
I was wondering could either of you guys pick me out a charger/balancer for a good price coz I dont really know what im looking at and if its any good,That would be very much appreciated and I will dedicate my maiden flight on youtube to the 1 who picks it out lol.
Is there any charger/balancers that you can plug into normal house sockets or do they all have to be used with the crocodile clips ?
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:53 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by groundrushesup View Post
Are these your batteries?

Yes, they are. I haven't tried them in-flight, so I don't know how they will hold up.
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:12 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by joeted View Post
ok thanks Radweld and DH, Ive just found this one which is heavier but its not too long so will fit by the looks of the dimensions it says in the listing plus its big on mah and c rating and its cheap, but is it too cheap that I should worry about it being crap ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-LIPO-BATTE...d=p3286.c0.m14
I was wondering could either of you guys pick me out a charger/balancer for a good price coz I dont really know what im looking at and if its any good,That would be very much appreciated and I will dedicate my maiden flight on youtube to the 1 who picks it out lol.
Is there any charger/balancers that you can plug into normal house sockets or do they all have to be used with the crocodile clips ?
That is a 30C "burst" i would find out what the C rating is first.


lipo battteries are not something very simple to make, so while there are many different brands the majority are probally made from the same few places with just different packaging.
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:20 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by DetroitHawk View Post
That is a 30C "burst" i would find out what the C rating is first.


lipo battteries are not something very simple to make, so while there are many different brands the majority are probally made from the same few places with just different packaging.
Oh right ok buddy, is the C rating the continuous discharge rate then ?
Also what CF rods would you choose from these http://www.rcmdirect.co.uk/store/ind...ort=20a&page=1
And I desperately need to order the charger so Ive found these 2 http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop...ditem&item=190 and http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop...dditem&item=79 are they good for me and would they go together safely ?
By the way DH my set up is looking like this now
Motor : Wasp C3536 (2814) 1450Kv 350W Brushless
ESC : Top Gun 'Etronix 40A' (3A BEC) Brushless
Radio : DX6i
Batt : LM Loong max 1800 3S1P 25C-35C (i went with this coz its cheap and will do for my first ever lipo)
I just need some props and the rods then Im away so thanks for all ya help so far
Thanks to everyone else whos helped too

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Old 08-20-2008, 11:38 PM
  #145  
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What I did was to use some 4mm Carbon tubing and some 5mm Brass tubing, I bent the brass to the dihedral and placed the rods in either end. I then cut the channel in the wing and glued it in.

For the charger, I would get this http://www.brchobbies.com/?page=shop...ditem&item=157
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:19 AM
  #146  
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i agree, 4mm tube. Make sure it is a tube and not a rod, the tube seems to work better IMO.

When i added the CF rods i tried to stay as close to the balance point as possiable. If i were you i would wait till the motor and everything else is ready THEN do the CF rods when you could take advantage of moving them forward or back to fine tune your COG.

I am rather excited for you with that motor selection, you are going to have a real rocketship on your hands. I am predicting 130KMH should be rather easy to obtain. you should take some video of your maiden flight!

In my sig the dates are links to my maiden flight with each plane. This is an actual timeline of how i learned to fly and what planes i bought and what order i bought them in. I always recorded the maiden flight, because if something is going to go wrong THAT is when it usally happens. HOWEVER i have never had a maiden flight go bad, but have seen many others go down in flames. If you watch the FW190 video you will see the 45degree launch, this was my second plane and i had only been flying for less then 8 weeks. You will have about the same amount of power, BUT you motor will be rated to better deal with it.
i had a motor that said it maxed out @ 250watts with the same Kv and prop you will have (master airscrew 8x6). I pushed that motor to over 330watts LOL where you will have no problem dealing with that demand, you will have a better rated battery then i had (mine was [email protected]), your motor will have about an ounce in weight more then the one i have, however the spitfire will still weigh less then my FW190 (28.5oz) you should come in at about 24-26oz if i had to guess which the spitfire can handle with no problems at all.
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:23 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by DetroitHawk View Post
i agree, 4mm tube. Make sure it is a tube and not a rod, the tube seems to work better IMO.

When i added the CF rods i tried to stay as close to the balance point as possiable. If i were you i would wait till the motor and everything else is ready THEN do the CF rods when you could take advantage of moving them forward or back to fine tune your COG.

I am rather excited for you with that motor selection, you are going to have a real rocketship on your hands. I am predicting 130KMH should be rather easy to obtain. you should take some video of your maiden flight!

In my sig the dates are links to my maiden flight with each plane. This is an actual timeline of how i learned to fly and what planes i bought and what order i bought them in. I always recorded the maiden flight, because if something is going to go wrong THAT is when it usally happens. HOWEVER i have never had a maiden flight go bad, but have seen many others go down in flames. If you watch the FW190 video you will see the 45degree launch, this was my second plane and i had only been flying for less then 8 weeks. You will have about the same amount of power, BUT you motor will be rated to better deal with it.
i had a motor that said it maxed out @ 250watts with the same Kv and prop you will have (master airscrew 8x6). I pushed that motor to over 330watts LOL where you will have no problem dealing with that demand, you will have a better rated battery then i had (mine was [email protected]), your motor will have about an ounce in weight more then the one i have, however the spitfire will still weigh less then my FW190 (28.5oz) you should come in at about 24-26oz if i had to guess which the spitfire can handle with no problems at all.
Ok thanks alot DH and Radweld i'll follow them instructions and get the cf tube instead of rods.I must admit im getting pretty excited now myself lol.I just hope I can put her together ok.Ive actually taken a picture of my motor,esc and the connectors coz I need your help on what bits to connect to what .so heres my questions if thats ok ?
1.The samller gold connectors just above the motor came with the motor,I take it I slot them onto the motor wire ends ? as they seem to fit pretty snug and clip in nicely ?
2.do i then solder the esc wire ends into the other ends of the gold connectors that are attached to the motor wire ends ?
3.and what are the bigger gold connectors for that are above the esc in the pic ?
4.in the pic you can see red,black and yellow wires from the motor,have i placed them opposite the correct esc wires ?
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:11 PM
  #148  
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Joe

Correct, solder the female connectors to your esc.
The bigger gold connectors to the right are a spare set. They are male and female already connected together, just pull apart.

When you come to connect the motor to the esc just connect up so the wires do not cross, if the motor turns in the correct direction all is good and the wires look nice and neat. If the motor is turning the wrong way then swap over any two wires.
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:42 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by SCC View Post
Joe

Correct, solder the female connectors to your esc.
The bigger gold connectors to the right are a spare set. They are male and female already connected together, just pull apart.

When you come to connect the motor to the esc just connect up so the wires do not cross, if the motor turns in the correct direction all is good and the wires look nice and neat. If the motor is turning the wrong way then swap over any two wires.
Thanks alot SCC i'll get to work on that tomorrow .so the male is the 1 that you actually plug "in" and the female is the one that you plug "into" right ? sorry for being a dumb dumb lol
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Old 08-22-2008, 03:29 AM
  #150  
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Posts: 2,338
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Originally Posted by joeted View Post
Thanks alot SCC i'll get to work on that tomorrow .so the male is the 1 that you actually plug "in" and the female is the one that you plug "into" right ? sorry for being a dumb dumb lol
Umm, struggling to avoid the massive potential for humor here, but yeah.

Your motor already has the males connected and shrinkwrapped. Now you need to solder the three females onto the speed controller.
These terminals are pretty easy to solder really, best thing to do is to pinch the end not-to-be-soldered in a clamp or a pair of pliers (I use needle-nose with a rubber band to keep tension) with the little hole in the side facing up, slide the wire into place (you can even bend a U in it if the tinned (part of the exposed wire already lightly coated in solder) bit is too long or of a higher gauge) and then apply the solder right to that little hole. it will fill up the body of the connector and hold the wire fast. Don't pull away too soon, as there is a lot of solder there and it can take a good 15 seconds to set.


The provided shrinkwrap looks a little big, but it will probably do. Do a check before you solder to see if the tubing will slide over the connector without difficulty. If it is tight, slide those onto the wires BEFORE you solder the females on, and wait for the terminals to cool down before sliding the shrink over them. If they are too tight (un-shrunk, of course) you can add a spritz of Windex to help slide it in place, then nuke it with the heat gun or a lighter.

Make sure the shrink covers ALL of the gold and the exposed wire as well. If there is any gold exposed, you risk a dead short.

Then put a Dean's on the battery side
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