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Ultrafly P40 Build

Old 02-09-2007, 03:12 PM
  #76  
alienx
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Originally Posted by K CLOSE View Post
On the hinge topic, heres two tips I've gotten which have worked well for me. On CA'd hinges (like GWS kits have) a bit of kids crayon in the closest color to the model drawn in the center/middle of the hinge. Does two things- marks where to "split the diffrence" and keeps the CA away from the flex point. Done this way it's easy to have a free moving close 'n tight gap--paint and touch up free if your so inclined. The other is Dubro micro hinges have small holes (for glue I would imagine) molded in them. Two tooth picks pushed through the foam on both sides ( picture + ) and then glued locks them in place really well for fast ones. Also requires little or no touch up.
Those are good tips too. Thanks. I have a GWS Spitfire in the box on the floor. Looking forward to trying some of these tips on that one.
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Old 02-10-2007, 03:55 AM
  #77  
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She's done I guess. I have some detail and balancing work to do, but the build is done.

I put the wing servos in tonight and trimmed the wing and tail. I used some light packing tape to cover the servos and wires. I'm sure I'll paint that (even though it isn't bothering me the way it is). I just don't have any maiden weather in sight, so why not right!?

The gear covers worked out really well. I had been envisioning the foam inserts I wanted to put under them before I glued them on, but they are pretty robust as-is, so I just trimmed them up and glued away. They aren't going to be a first point of contact (hopefully!!:o ), so they should be fine. I learned after the first one was cut that I should have left about 1/16" of the scrap around them. There is a nice shelf of sorts on the wing that is finished nicely by the little overage on the cover. No big deal either way, but this is the first foamy I've built where you didn't have to cut all the extra off to get the part to fit and look nice.

I still have to paint a prop. I am going to test a few before picking one. But something a little less amp-drawing than the E-flite 10x8 I am using on my P47. I have a few other sizes of APC SF and electric props to try, and I have a MAS or two to try as well.

The final AUW, I am happy to report, is 636 grams, or 22.43 ounces! I am happy with this. And it is using the heavier 2200 mah pack instead of the 1350's. Balancing is going to be a little work. I am at about 55mm as far as I could tell with a quick finger test. It is supposed to be between 40 and 45mm. So I will have to carve a little foam out of the nose to push the battery up. Another day for that.

So I have to fix the balance problem, paint the prop, trim the horn screws, add the stickers, and I guess just put it in my radio. Oh, and I have to add my Alfa aileron fairings too.

I would much prefer to fly this plane at 20 oz, using the smaller battery, but I don't think that will be possible with the balance as far off as it is now. I may give it a quick look tomorrow though first. The plane feels heavy. I guess my E-flite P47 always strikes me as heavy too until it is out of my hand and flying. So maybe the 2.5 oz weight savings over that plane will set them about equal for size and so forth. We'll have to wait and see.

Two things I wish I did. I wish I had known that my pilot belonged up behind the gauges. He is floating too far back. And I wish I had painted the inside of the cockpit gray or some other color. The contrast would have set the model off. Oh well. The canopy is glued on too well to mess with it now.

The plane is pretty though.

Andy
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Old 02-11-2007, 05:13 PM
  #78  
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This is probably going to be about the last post on this plane (at least for a long time). I am going to vent a little here, so look away if you like.

I HATE THIS PLANE!

All right, that helped a little. If you happened to be reading this thread, I can sum up the critical parts right here: make room for the battery before you put the halves of the fuse together!!! You simply cannot balance this plane if you don't (without dead weight in the nose)!!

When I looked at the P51 a while back as it was introduced, it struck me as a heavy plane. I shrugged it off to the extra control surfaces and whatnot. That seems now not to tell the story. This plane is just designed poorly. Period! I say this because it is absolutely too small for it's AUW weight. At nearly 23oz, it will have to be flown faster than say a GWS (almost equivalent size. comparible at least.). I use GWS as an example because the one that I own is about the same size yet weighs 16 oz. It flies very very nicely. If this plane could be balanced at 23oz, it would be heavy. But my true AUW is going to be closer to 24.5 or 25 oz with the weight I am likely to have to add to the nose.

I am thinking out loud here, hopefully for the benefit of those that bought this plane but didn't start building yet. I have a Park 450 in mine. It weighs a stout 2.5 oz. No featherweight for sure. But with that motor and a 6 oz lipo, I am about somewhere between 15 and 25mm behind the balance point. I carved some foam from the front of the tray and moved the battery up about 1.25 inches, but that barely made a dent in the unbalance. I also tried a smaller 1350 mah pack. No help. With no weight in the nose, the forward end of the battery in both cases has to be butted up almost touching the back of the firewall that the motor is mounted to. Within 3/4" anyway. To me, this is just a gross design flaw.

OK, I vented a little more I guess. There are a couple options. None of them are very good. You could try to hog out the halves of the fuse before you put them together. This may give you enough forward movement to balance later. You could also cut a new battery hatch in the nose. That doesn't seem very pleasant. Lastly, I guess, you could add whatever weight you need, in the form of lead, to the nose. But like I said, this plane is already fat to begin with. I am pretty sure this plane will fly at 25 oz, but it certainly won't be the type of flight I was building for.

Be warned. Kahlog and I are the only ones writing about this plane, so I don't know if anyone else has had this problem or found a creative solution. I am going to put mine aside now and maybe someday I'll feel like picking it back up and balancing it. I guess I will use lead, because frankly, I really don't have a lot of love for this plane anymore. If it flies once and that's it, I don't think I am going to be too worried.

If you are going to build yours still, look at all the extra foam that is in it, and look at the heavy hardware, and then think about how you may have to balance it later. It will be a challenge. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that a plane seems to have a certain inherent AUW. This is based on the size of the wing to a large extent. As soon as you have to start adding bigger motors or heavier batteries, or lead, you are just degrading your flight experience.

Sorry for the rambling, this plane just seems to have been a dead-end from the start. It's a shame because it looks and builds nicely.

Here are some pics anyway.
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Old 02-11-2007, 05:36 PM
  #79  
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Hey Andy,

Sorry to hear about your dissappointment. I haven't started mine yet but will certainly re read this thread when I do. You may be suprised how it flys at 24 ounces. Most of my warbirds are about the same size as this and they all weigh at least 23 ounces and fly really well. If I remember correctly, my E-Flite P-47 is even heavier and flys great. Maybe you'll be pleasantly suprised when you fly it. I sure hope so.

Tom
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Old 02-11-2007, 05:42 PM
  #80  
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Just to play devils advocate for a second.

I know you say you ďhateĒ this planeÖ. But it has zero <0> hours on it. Perhaps you could rephrase it to Iím disappointed its such a big fat pig and I think it will fly like a pig!

All kidding aside for me itís a for long conclusion that these little models will need the fuse hogged out before the Ĺ are joined to get the battery pack as far forward as possible. Weather itís a GWS brand or even the E-Flite 47 it never hurts to get that pack all the way forward.

By your own account the motor you chose is a tank. I prefer the Axi outrunners but its neither here nor their. After all the weight is pretty much where you want it, in the nose.

My only other observation is that any paint you applied behind the C of G is also hurting your efforts. I try to use as little glue as possible <poly/water mix> and keep the epoxy for larger models.

Honestly I think your model looks excellent. I could make a wise crack and say I bet it will be fast in a diveÖ but Ill save that for someone else! :p

Perhaps you can re-examine the model when you have some time and figure out how to get the pack further forward. It would seem a TP 1320 3S pack could be moved dang near all the way to the entrance of the scoop. It may seem like a long run, but on my E-Flite P-47 I was able to do the same thing and the pack extends to just behind the fake cowl.

Donít give up on her, you have a lot of time and effort invested and I think you can come up with some solutions.

Tommy D
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Old 02-11-2007, 06:12 PM
  #81  
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Thanks fellas! Definitely going to walk away fro this one for a while. I'm going to Florida on Tuesday night (if the snow doesn't get in the way). I'm sure a clear head will be better to debug this thing with.

As far as paint. I painted the bottom of the wing (that's close to the CoG). But I really only dusted it because I was so close on the paint match. I also did the same for the bottom of the horizontal. But it was a 50/50 acrylic mix that I used on my GWS Corsair. (I painted that whole plane at a cost of about .6oz). So maybe it factors in a little, but I also swapped the heavy steel pushrods for the lighter-by-half E-flites. And I sanded the paint. The Ultrafly paint is thick. So I think this is just an inherently tail-heavy manufacturing.

Ah, maybe this is just a little builder's frustration. I did lay it on top of my 25 oz P47, and it is not so much smaller in the wing. Lesson learned on the build/pre-build plan. It will be interesting for me to see what kahlog had to do to get his balanced. His motor was .5oz heavier than mine, but he also had those heavy rods in the tail.

And I don't know if anyone of the wave of group buyers has reported a flight yet. Kahlog and I can't be the only ones out there close to ready to maiden.
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Old 02-11-2007, 08:07 PM
  #82  
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Andy, sorry about the tail heavy plane. I think you have the right idea, sometimes it's better to walk away for awhile.

It's easy to get too close, mabey after a little time you'll come up with an easy fix and the plane might turn out to be the best one yet.

Last week I was finishing a new plane when I slipped and cracked the lower fuselage longeron, and when I removed the tape, a large section of the covering came with it.

It looks a lot easier to fix it this week.

Good luck, have a great time in Florida.
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Old 02-11-2007, 10:19 PM
  #83  
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Thanks Paul.

You guys have talked me in off the ledge for sure.

Well, my Green RC Piper Cub made it safely to its retirement home in Florida (in The Villages no less!). So with a little luck on the storm and some calm weather, I should be able to get some flying in with my Dad. I haven't seen him fly yet, but he sounds like he is doing well with his E-starter. Should be a good time.

I haven't touched the plane, but I am going to revisit the smaller battery at some point. Like Tommy said, maybe right up in the nose is what it needs. And there is certainly enough access from the front with the cowl off to build a little perch of some sort. That would solve two problems, balance and weight.

I welcome any advice from other P40 owners out there. Somebody has to have this thing balanced.

Andy
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Old 02-11-2007, 10:42 PM
  #84  
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Andy, I had a similar problem with my Zero,this is how I solved it.
It's not pretty, but with the cowl on, you can't see the battery.
I had to move the battery to on top of the motor, or add 1/2 pound to the nose.
I even had to move the motor forward 1 inch in order to get the CG close.
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Old 02-11-2007, 11:21 PM
  #85  
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Wow, that thing is legit! Must be cool to see it fly.
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Old 02-12-2007, 03:16 AM
  #86  
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alienx, you have done a very nice job on your P-47. I am sure it will be fine weight-wise. You certainly ought to have enough power with that Park 450 to make it zip around with authority!
I have been a bit concerned about the weight issue myself. I have also compared it to my E-flite P-47 (Park 480 powered). The wing area is pretty close between the two models...I know some people are flying their P-47's around 30 ounces! That should give you some confidence.

Like others have stated before, just let it go for a bit. A simple solution may come out of nowhere. Or, maybe I'll get off my butt and get to building!
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Old 02-12-2007, 03:51 AM
  #87  
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Thanks Barmonkey.

I have some ideas. The up side is that I think it will fly on the smaller pack at around 20.5 oz. I just have to work out a couple kinks in my mind before I start chopping and building again. But she'll fly.

Here are the two batteries I am trying to work with. The smaller pack is about 1/4" further forward than the larger pack.
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Old 02-12-2007, 04:17 AM
  #88  
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FWIW I was one of those guys flying my P-47 at just under 30 ounces. With 300W it had plenty of power and it would track nice in the wind. Putting the model on a diet and relocating the pack got me a better rate of climb and a slightly improved top speed. On the other hand it now suffers in the wind to some degree.

I donít have the wing area in front of me but I would think at 20 ounces the little P-40 would have some float to it. A few MM of up tick on your ailerons might help giving it a little wash out.

The Ultrafly FW-190 has exactly the reverse problem of your P-40, itís nose heavy! Then again it was built around a smaller motor then I used so I should only blame myself.

It is interesting that the FW-190 built to 32 ounces and thatís with the heavier motor and upgrading to HS-81 servos and paint. Built stock I bet it would come in at the advertised 29 ounces, barely heavier then the P-40!

Have fun in FLA and I canít wait to hear your maiden report.

Tommy D

Oh, you know how sometimes you remember things after you type. Well if you guys recall a few people purchased P-40s before the group buy. Savageone on RC groups detailed he build in the thread and his AUW was <get ready>

UNDER 16 OUNCES!

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6320842&postcount=78

http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/7/4/3/4/6/a1057129-65-Im000962.jpg


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Old 02-12-2007, 04:36 AM
  #89  
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That's good insight. I think I have some ideas that are reasonable now. I'm sure it will be pretty simple when I get back.

The yellow battery fits very nicely in the gap between the sides of the fuse in the nose, right up under the motor. I think I can build a really simple tray into the nose to tie the battery to. But this means some type of cowl mod. Taking 4 screws off every flight is not going to work.

The red battery is longer, so it is something that can be shoved in from the cockpit. I think instead of chopping the foam and sliding it straight forward, I may be able to use the angle down into the bottom of the nose. I can also build a simple ply tray here to give the battery a secure home once it is up out of reach.

Just a couple thoughts.

I did swap a couple email's with Savageone tonight. I remembered the maiden pic of him holding the plane. He actually is 16oz without the battery. he said his AUW with the TP2100 is about 21 oz. So even if the tray takes up another half ounce, I am still coming in around 23 oz. Like you guys said, this is probably going to be a floater in spite of my fears to the contrary.

That old familiar feeling is creeping back in ...build it and fly it. Don't over-think it. I guess you have to just get it in the air!

Thanks for the feedback guys.
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Old 02-12-2007, 03:51 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by alienx View Post
Thanks Barmonkey.

I have some ideas. The up side is that I think it will fly on the smaller pack at around 20.5 oz. I just have to work out a couple kinks in my mind before I start chopping and building again. But she'll fly.

Here are the two batteries I am trying to work with. The smaller pack is about 1/4" further forward than the larger pack.
Other than the drag that looks like it should work just fine.
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Old 02-12-2007, 04:18 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by MacMyers View Post
Other than the drag that looks like it should work just fine.
Do you think I need two rubber bands?
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Old 02-12-2007, 05:18 PM
  #92  
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Duct tape!
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Old 02-12-2007, 06:54 PM
  #93  
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I think you can get olive colored duct tape...it will match nicely with your paint and also add some protection for the cowl and shark-mouth decals!
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Old 02-14-2007, 06:01 AM
  #94  
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Ok....I got mine balanced at 41-42mm(manual says 40 to start out at, but hell 42 is close enough).

I initially had problems getting it balanced as well, but it wasn't too horribly out of balance by just putting the TP 3s 2100 in the cockpit area. So, I did take a knife to the inside area of cockpit forward section and got the battery moved forward about half its length. See pics.
Keep in mind, the spinner Im using is a Dubro 3-blade which is heavier then some 2-blade spinners and Im also using an MAS 9x7x3 prop. It weights a little more then an APC SF or FSK type thin prop.
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Old 02-14-2007, 06:27 AM
  #95  
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im totally agreeing with the duct tape idea "if you cant duct it, f*ck it!"
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Old 02-14-2007, 11:55 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by kahloq View Post
Ok....I got mine balanced at 41-42mm(manual says 40 to start out at, but hell 42 is close enough).

I initially had problems getting it balanced as well, but it wasn't too horribly out of balance by just putting the TP 3s 2100 in the cockpit area. So, I did take a knife to the inside area of cockpit forward section and got the battery moved forward about half its length. See pics.
Keep in mind, the spinner Im using is a Dubro 3-blade which is heavier then some 2-blade spinners and Im also using an MAS 9x7x3 prop. It weights a little more then an APC SF or FSK type thin prop.
You did a good job getting it tucked up in there. I think I have some more room to nibble foam, but I may need another tool to do it. Getting tough to reach withe the Xacto knife.

Looks good. You're ready to go.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:11 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by alienx View Post
You did a good job getting it tucked up in there. I think I have some more room to nibble foam, but I may need another tool to do it. Getting tough to reach withe the Xacto knife.

Looks good. You're ready to go.
Andy, X-Acto makes a razor saw attachment, and there is always number 26 blades.
Even a hacksaw blade,( fine tooth metal blade) can help.

With the will, you'll find a way.
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:32 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by alienx View Post
You did a good job getting it tucked up in there. I think I have some more room to nibble foam, but I may need another tool to do it. Getting tough to reach withe the Xacto knife.

Looks good. You're ready to go.
I've found foam very, very forgiving. At first I tried hogging out areas with various tools to varying degrees of success. Now, with a new razor I just cut off the area I'm working on. Just cut off the whole top of the nose where you need to remove material. Sounds brutal, but you end up with a very small seem lightly CA'd back in place and a much better, neater job. With careful touch up no one will ever see it.
Cheers,
PS. That F2G Super Corsair that's my avitar started as GWS kit, with 2" off each wing tip and it's over 2 lbs. Goes like the hammers of..... With that brushless motor in that P-40 I think that, ultimately, you'll be pleased with how it flys. Just Say'n....
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:12 PM
  #99  
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Ooh, great ideas guys. I think that hacksaw blade is going to be the ticket. It is thin but rigid and doesn't have the extra metal on the top edge like the razor saw (which is an absolute must have).

I thought about chopping the top too, maybe even making a permanent battery hatch, but I think I will try to come from the inside first.

I haven't been able to fly down here in Florida with the wind coming off this nasty cold front. But I got to window shop at a LHS down here. It is a sick place. Fully stocked with every plane I have drooled over in the last year. I was thinking about getting the E-flite cub because I was scared of the bigger Hangar9, but I saw the Hangar 9 and it is very very nice. I could ride it around my apartment if I take the wing off !! The power 46 they have in it is the size of a baseball. Definitely a different scale than I am used to (in every sense of the word!).
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:09 PM
  #100  
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I definitely suggest trying to hog out the foam from the inside first as well. This is what I did. The less outside visible markings the better, IMO.
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