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Newbie; power system for H9 Funtana X 50?

Old 10-12-2008, 02:12 PM
  #26  
HugoW
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The postman came by!! Not only did he bring the carbon gear and ultralight weels, (74 grams total against 214 for the original gear!) he also had the package from China containing the motor, prop and ESC. Looking at the pics of Jason's conversion, I used a bit of plastic drain pipe and some threaded bar to fit the motor, and I put the ESC in the prop-wind:





Now I'm waiting for the batteries to come. And I found a store doing a sale on the old eLogger V2, which does all I want and more so I put it on my birthday wish list (I turn 33 somewhere this month...)

Now for connecting the three motor wires, to get the right direction of rotation, is that just a matter of trail and error?

Cheers,

Hugo
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Old 10-12-2008, 03:35 PM
  #27  
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On the smaller motor installations you can use male/female plugs and just switch any 2 wires if you get the rotation incorrect. Unless your ESC can be programmed with left/right rotation. Otherwise you've got a 50/50 chance of quessing right since most wires on motors and ESC's are not marked. Some people solder one set of wires(and insulate) then clamp the other 2 sets together(again keeping them from touching and just hit the throttle enough to tell rotation. Then once direction is figured out solder away! Looks good otherwise. Have fun on the maiden!
Regrards,
Jason
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:22 PM
  #28  
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OK, thanks, I'll clamp the wires and try.

So far, the fuse weighs 1.302 grams.
The wing weighs 587 grams.
Cowl and canopy weigh 107 grams.
The battery should weigh 590 grams.
Add a BEC and eLogger for 11 + 20 + 31 grams.
So the total fly weight would be 2.617 grams, plus some wire extensions, Dean plugs and a (carbon?) battery tray-like-item. I read some of the other electric X50s fly at 6.5 lbs, which is 2.950 grams. So I should be OK!

Hugo
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:58 PM
  #29  
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If you can keep it around 6lbs or so you should be good to go. Don't forget to try the SFG's, they make it a much better performer although it will tend to float a little more on landings. Seems to help out with wing rock during high alpha manuevers and better KE performance.

Jason
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Old 10-13-2008, 06:32 AM
  #30  
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I've got a Hanger 9 Showtime 50 with following:
6S2P A123 cells
Hacker A50-16S Motor
APC-E 16X12 prop
Castle Creations BEC
Castle Creations ESC

The motor pulls about 48 Amps out of the battery pack. Both the motor and battery pack have less than 12 degrees F temperature rise after a flight of 8-9 minutes.
Model weighs in at 8 pounds even ready to fly. These A123 cells now have 190 AmpHours run through them, and they have lost NO performance! I've built a 6 channel volt meter to show all six voltages simultaneously, all stay balanced within 0.2%, even without balancing.

No, the model will not hover with this setup, it does fly at 75 MPH, and will climb at about 60-70 degrees, and keep on going.

It is a very nice set up.
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Old 10-13-2008, 06:49 AM
  #31  
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My Showtime 50 unfortunately was a big disapointment. Even with lipos and 1450 watts it was a pig @ 6.75lbs. Nice pattern/sport plane but even on a lighter setup at 6lbs it's 3D performance was not great. Too much wing rock(even with SFGs on) and high alpha stuff was terrible at best. Nice rolling harriers though. Tried 14s2p A123's on my 3DHS 87" Extra 300 SHP with almost disasterous results. Cooked my Hacker Spin 99 ESC and almost burned the plane up! Way too heavy a setup for 3D work. Maybe using the Castle Creations 110 SHV(not out yet) and a 20s1p A123 pack it might be feasible but I've come to the conclusion that higher cell counts of M1's are not good for 3D. Seems the only happy medium is the 3DHS 55" Extra using 5s-or 6s1p A123's. It's a much lighter airframe and has a lot of wing area. They are great RX packs though. Too bad they weigh so much and don't seem to put out the power that lipos do. Like the charge times. They are great for sport flying but for 3D work I'd have to conclude that they're not the best choice. Good luck and keep 'em flyin'!
Regards,
Jason
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Old 10-13-2008, 07:45 AM
  #32  
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I've been looking at the A123 cells as well, but there's something I don't understand. The way I calculate:
One A123 cell: 2300mAh, 3,3V, 70 grams. Hence, 108mWh/gram.
My LiPo pack: 4000mAh, 22,2V, 890 grams. So, 150mWh/gram.

Ergo, per gram the LiPo holds 50% more energy. Is'n't that what we want, flying?

Anyway, my budget didn't allow for A123s anyway, we'll see where I get with the LiPos. And I seem to run out of ideas to lighten the plane, but I want to get to 2500 grams take-off weight.

Cheers,

Hugo

Last edited by HugoW; 10-13-2008 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:09 PM
  #33  
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The difference in energy vs. weight between lipos and A123's is also another winning point for lipos. They have a lot more energy per oz. than A123's. Which is why lipos rule for 3D. I already found out the hard way. The charge times are the most tempting part, it's like having 2 or 3 packs instead of 1. With 2 A123 packs you can basically fly all day with the quick charges. But if you're 3D'ing you'll find the added weight kind of ruins the fun. Great for sport flying where weight isn't that critical. I use a 2s1p A123 Rx pack in my 87"er for quick charges at the field. Switched back to lipos for my main power pack and it flies like a 3D plane should now. With A123's it would mush thru manuevers(20oz. overweight) and the vertical was lacking. I'll just wait for the lithium nano wire packs-that will change the face of RC as we know it. Be nice to rib the glow guys-"How much does your plane weigh(without fuel)?-Oh mine weighs less with the packs installed!" Once these cells become commonplace and cheap, glow will not make any sense to use anymore. Unless you want to be in the loser's circle. I do not miss the noise,smell,mess,adjustments or cleanup at all! Slap a pack in and fly...

Jason
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:40 PM
  #34  
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Well, I've just taken another step in the process. The motor in the previous pictures is on the shelf for a less weight-sensitive project, this is it:



This is the new one, it's a Turnigy SK motor:



This motor should be more powerfull, and more efficient in turning amps into thrust. Good combination, since it weighs a lot less, too. So with all parts in the shop, I fitted and wired the lot today:



The clampy thingies (English?) are srewed to the little wood piece, and hold the wires for soldering.



Then the moment of truth, power-up. Everything beeped the way it should (yes, I read the manuals...) so ready for the first try. Damn, prop turns the wrong way. Disconnect everything, power up solder iron again. Then it's time for the second test, and everything works like a charm.

OK, now for some measuring. I bought a Watt's Up meter, since I only need to now upper values, and this meter remembers them. I took of the casing and heat shrink wrapped it, saves a few grams. I migh get an Eagle Tree later, but this Watt's set me back the same amount as the screen of the Eagle Tree alone would, and I prefer to have a screen.

OK, test! Well, this thing has power. I ran a 16x10 prop op, and power peaked at 1.734,7Watt. Yep, that's 1,7kW! Maximum amps was 89,91A, the pack voltage bottomed out at 18,91V. It's a 6S pack, so 3,15V/cell. That's very close to the border of 3,0V. The ESC should be able to cope with 90A peaks for 10 seconds, it's mighty close to that value. The motor is spec'd at 1450W, so I'm way over that. It got warm, too, but I could put my hand on it, but I only ran full power for 3 seconds. The plane weight should be 2600 grams fly-ready, with this power thats 667W/kg. About one and a half times the recommandation for serious 3D. All this was tested static, by the way. I thing I should put on a 15x8 prop and do some more static tests, and use the 15x8 for the first flights.

It was a bit nerveracking, I must say, doing this test with the fuse up side down on the dining table, tail held between two chairs... The dog went berserk, and I held on to the plane thoroughly, despite the fact that is was securely anchored.

I'll post again when I get a hold of a 15x8 prop, but so far, it looks promissing, right?
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:49 PM
  #35  
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Try a 16 x 8 for 3D. Should have thrust but not as much tip speed. Will drop your amps too. 1.7kw is plenty overkill-kewwwl! Seriously though propping down or pitching down might keep the packs a little happier. Good luck with your maiden!
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Old 11-01-2008, 10:21 PM
  #36  
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I'll try both a 16x8 and a 15x8. The motor is 500kV, and the prop recommendations go from 15x8 to 16x10 on 4S to 7S. Here's the motor here. I'll do static tests with all props, and go flying with the smallest to see what in-flight max values I get.

BTW, I was told on a Dutch forum, that APC-E props are a bit floppy above 14" diameter. I really like APCs for my nitro motors, but I have no experiences with their E-series. What would you recommend? I now have this one.

Last edited by HugoW; 11-02-2008 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:19 PM
  #37  
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I would try a Xoar beechwood e-prop. Will pull sligthly less amps than an APC-e. A little quieter due to less cavititation. Try 'em you'll like 'em!
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Old 11-02-2008, 01:30 AM
  #38  
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Old 11-02-2008, 09:27 AM
  #39  
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Yep, I think I'm overpropping. The motor is made for 4-7S packs, so I won't try an 8S, but the biggest prop recommended is 16x10. And I think that would work nicely with 4S, keeping all within bounderies. 6S will make it spin allot faster, so my guess is the 15x8 will be the best. But I ordered the Xoar in both 16*8 and 15*8, so I'll test and see. The packs are 4000mAh 20C, burst to 30C, so they should cope. I'm aiming for about 1,5kW, 20V, so 75A.

BTW, isn't the 3.6V minimum only when not under load? I think I read somewhere 3.0V is the minimum under load. Is this correct?

Thanks,
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Old 11-02-2008, 03:44 PM
  #40  
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Just a pic, nothing interesting about the drive:



Since I'm putting a less blunt nose on the wing, I wrecked the blue striping on that. So I replaced all blue with, yes it's an environmently friendly electric plane, GREEN. And when I say green, it's green. I can probably fly this baby in the pitch black night, and still see it! But I do think it looks good.
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Old 11-02-2008, 04:12 PM
  #41  
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:00 PM
  #42  
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I'm using a UBEC (not in the ESC) to have some extra safety, in case I smoke the ESC. Before the next test, I'll fully charge the pack. This came straight from the supplier, and I read somewhere those are not fully charged.

BTW, I have a nice spark connecting the pack. It's 'only' 6S, but should I put on a spark eliminator anyway? Shouldn't cost / weigh that much.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:38 PM
  #43  
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Most packs are stored or shipped with 1/2 charge in them. Don't worry about the spark. No need for a spark eliminator on 6s. I use 12s and it sparks a little too but my Deans plugs haven't pitted or shown discoloration so I just plug em' in and go no capacitors needed. 'Bout time to get some air under those wings-eh?
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:11 PM
  #44  
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OK, I won't worry about the spark. You're right, it takes a long time to get airborne. I'm still in the process of modding the leading edge of the wing. After that, it's time to balance and permanently locate the LiPo. Then it's time to wait for weather that doesn't turn our flying field into a mudbath... Darn Dutch weather...
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:11 PM
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:16 PM
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:49 PM
  #47  
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I'll post the numbers, I knew I bought el-cheapo lipos to begin with. This is my first try, and they are 2/3 of the price you recommend, should (theoretically) hold up under the load I plan for them, and weight 100 grams less. I wonder about that, though, how come my lipos at 6S 4000mAh weigh 585 grams, and the ones you recommend also are 6S 4000mAh, but weigh 695 grams?

If all goes well, the props should be in Friday. Maybe I'll do a trail tonight at 65 amps, and check the voltage drop.

Thanks for all the input, by the way, I learn a lot and appriciate it.

Hugo
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:00 PM
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:02 PM
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:04 PM
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