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Power for non-rc free flight models

Old 12-27-2008, 12:32 AM
  #1  
RG WILLIAMS
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Default Power for non-rc free flight models

I was wondering what the best power choice is for a Guillow Arrow and a Piper Super Cub, also by Guillow. These would be non-rc models. I guess a way to cut the power after several minutes would also be needed so the ac would not fly too far away. Most projects are rc . I don't know if this is a bad idea, just thought I would ask for some expert advice.
Thanks for your thoughts.
rg
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Old 12-27-2008, 12:48 AM
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cyclops2
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Default fLYING POWER

It is the same if RC....non-RC......UC ....or anything else.

Bill G. is a good......excellent..... small plane man. Send him a PM. He is usually on some section.

Rich
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Old 12-27-2008, 01:32 AM
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Bub Steve
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Originally Posted by RG WILLIAMS View Post
I was wondering what the best power choice is for a Guillow Arrow and a Piper Super Cub, also by Guillow. These would be non-rc models. I guess a way to cut the power after several minutes would also be needed so the ac would not fly too far away. Most projects are rc . I don't know if this is a bad idea, just thought I would ask for some expert advice.
Thanks for your thoughts.
rg
RG::Free flights' great! make'in a plane fly well on it;s own is MUCH harder that RC Flight by far, I love them old timer's to ! it's gett'in to be a lost art,and Bill's your man!! he's a Pip!! bub, steve
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Old 12-28-2008, 01:16 AM
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Most of the powered free-flyers I've seen in the Mag's are rubber driven (rubber bands). This would make sence to me since there is no way I know of to turn off an electric or gas motor in a non-controlled model. Ergo, you would want something that "cuts off automatically".

It would certainly beat watching your beloved build cruise off into oblivion!
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Old 12-28-2008, 03:19 AM
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cyclops2
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Thumbs up Length of flight ?

Is controlled by a SMALL ballon fuel tank and a EYE DROPPER. You can get damm good at 5 minute flights with a eye dropper.

Rich

OOPPS. Forgot we are electric.
RC GROUPS.....RC UNIVERSE ......& others have electronic design sections. Piece of cake for a fixed flying timer. Many circuits can do the job. @ 71 years I have slipped on IC chips of lately.
Still. Piece of cake to buy a IC to do the job.

Post a PM for me if you strike out. I will get a timer for you.

Rich
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Old 12-28-2008, 12:10 PM
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slipstick
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I and my flying buddies have made dozens and dozens of electric powered free flight models of all shapes and sizes from 8" span to about 48" span. It is very easy and cheap to make (and you can even buy) a timer which will run a motor for a time then switch it off. For brushed motors a timer only needs 3 components.

Probably the best places for such information are:

SFA http://www.smallflyingarts.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl
RCGroups http://www.rcgroups.com/free-flight-64/

SFA has a forum dedicated to electric free flight and the RCG FF forum also covers loads of electrics.

Steve
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Old 12-28-2008, 01:11 PM
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Sky Sharkster
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Default Free Flight Power?

Hello RG, Welcome to Wattflyer!
Steve is right, Small Flying Arts is a great source for information.
Here's another one, a site dedicated to E-FF;
http://www.electricfreeflight.com/
Also, on the "Builders Links" I have other links for FF suplies, including timers;
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14117
Last, if you scroll to "Micro + Indoor" on the Builders Links, you will find many suppliers of small motors + kits.
Here's photos of my 23" wingspan Corben Super Ace R/C model with an Ele E10 motor from BP Hobbies. About 25 watts on 2s LiPos, model weight 3-1/2 ounces. Motor weight about 10 grams.
Good Luck!
Ron
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Old 12-30-2008, 05:07 AM
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50+AirYears
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This summer, I saw a demo of a timer system aavailable at least through Shorty's Basement. One can set the timer, place the FF model on the runway, and after a programmable delay, the motor soft starts, ramps up to full power for a predetermined time for TO, then climbout. After a programmed time delay, the motor drops to a cruise speed for another programmed interval, then powers off. Sweet!!!
Also, I think timers for electric are available through Texas Timers and BMJR models. Flying Models Magazine has also run several circuits for build-your-own timers.
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:46 PM
  #9  
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Default Cost.

$ 50 + s & h.
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:11 AM
  #10  
RG WILLIAMS
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Thanks for the information. That could be a very interesting model if set up correctly. The Guillow Cub , built lightly, or the Guillow Arrow,also built as lightly as possible are the two AC models I now have. I thought I would build one with rubber power and the other as electric . The Arrow also has instructions for using a 0.02 gas engine.
Any ideas are appreciated. I will post the build(s) when I start the project.

Last edited by RG WILLIAMS; 12-31-2008 at 05:12 AM. Reason: spelling error
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Old 12-31-2008, 06:19 AM
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I think the fuse on the Arrow is going to be too narrow. (sorry for the sick sounding rhyme.)

The Cub would be a better bet IMHO. That sounds like a terrific project. Please post photos and a build journal here if you decide to try it.

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Old 12-31-2008, 03:31 PM
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cyclops2
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Default Stop stop !!!



Go with rubber. .........IF IF.......You remember to REINFORCE the wood work at each end of the rubber band.!!!!!!!!!!......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! High pulling together forces.
A left over carbon fiber tube from a GWS kit is perfect. Ask some one for one.
It should be close to the rubber band without interfering with the knots on the rubber when wound up tightly. a carbon on each side prevent bowing and breaking....Thinest rods are OK.

Rubber is the lightest. Cheapest. Needs no timer. You can angle the motor for a climbing circle & a straight ahead glide or any other combination.

When you fly rubber, you are back to our " roots. "

Enjoy

I have a 2 dollar wind up for relaxation.

Rich
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:00 PM
  #13  
RG WILLIAMS
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I think the poetry is great , BTW a flying model is poetry in motion. The Arrow plan does have a build modification for conversion to electric or gas. The original design of the Arrow was for contest rubber. Long fuse with very stable wing construction. The long fuse allows for lots of rubber and rubber winds. I think the Cub could be built lighter than the Arrow. This could be an advantage if I attempt to use the HF motor and battery. I would guess the HF lightning power system is very limited. I could also use the wire,switch,and charging port of the HF system to connect a more powerful battery and motor for the Cub if needed. Lots of questions. Could be fun.
rg
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:44 PM
  #14  
RG WILLIAMS
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Rich,

Good idea for the fuse reinforcement. I have a hollow Aluminum ,very small, rod for the tail and extra balsa for the nose.I also have a very light,small plastic sleeve for the prop hook. The carbon fiber rods sound like a good idea , if they would not add too much weight to the final product. I think the Arrow is the best choice for rubber power.
Now Rich, this is the WattFlyer, it is Required by Law, that you build or fly an ac that uses Electrons moving through a wire. As not to break this Unwritten law,I plan to build/fly such an ac.
I have a plan that shows how to build a power system that connects the electric motor and the prop hook via a rubber band link. In this system you are able to adjust the prop angle just like a rubber model.
A timer is not needed because the motor run time is controled by the charge time of the battery. Think of it as adding more or less gas to your car fuel tank. Charge times are quick,usually no more than 2 minutes.They have formulas to figure all this out to achieve the desired run times.
BTW, an "expert" told me I would have fewer trim problems with electric vs rubber. The battery can be mounted on velcro to position as needed for COG adjustment. Better to do this than have to add lead to the nose. Thanks for your input. Any suggestions are much appreciated.
rg
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:45 PM
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cyclops2
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Default Forget the " trim problems ".

Any short nosed plane is a hand full to balance. NOTE.......A rubber band motor DOES NOT have to go to the tail. It can end anywhere you can get enough power to a desired height. Use the HIGHEST pitched props you can find. Probably a GWS for use in a gear reduction. You can cut the diameter down. You WILL NOT overheat rubber motors at full wind & turning 6 rpm. No electric will ever come close to that. Sport planes can run anything.........EXCEPT .......a prop that can cause the plane to be rotated more than 5 to 10 degrees on take off in a straight direction.. Banking into a CLIMBING circle is OK.
So many things.

Can you keep a rubber motor running ?

Enjoy.

Almost forgot. Send Bill G. a PM about the small planes you are into.
He is one of the best available.
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Old 05-05-2009, 02:48 AM
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Hi Folks.
I have just found this site and am into C/L Free Flight and RC.

I have the R/C thing under control but am foraying into F/F and C/L electric.

Has any one used the new
E Flyte C/L controllers


and am wondering how it works and what batterys can be used.

Phil
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:41 AM
  #17  
JetPlaneFlyer
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Originally Posted by RG WILLIAMS View Post
Now Rich, this is the WattFlyer, it is Required by Law, that you build or fly an ac that uses Electrons moving through a wire. As not to break this Unwritten law,I plan to build/fly such an ac.
Rich,
All you need for small electric free flight models including motors, props, batteries and timers/speed controllers can be found here: www.atomicworkshop.co.uk
The guy who runs the site is called Jonathan and he's incredibly helpfull and knowledgable. His brother Richard Crossley is one of the top free flight scale modellers in the UK.

Steve
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Old 05-18-2009, 12:32 PM
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I posted this on this other thread
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2336

I bought one off a guy on ebay and only $10.

Well the E_Watts timer arrived. ( 4 days from the USA to Australia.)


Blew me away!
It is heaps smaller than it looks in the picture.
(about 1.5inches long and weighs just about nought)

I had a play with it last night (the timer you dirty minded people)

I first hooked it up to a brushless motor / controller / lipo, combo / in one of my radio models but it just wasn't happening. (a bit dissapointing)

On thinking about the controller may have programmed itself to the rc?

I tried it on a brushed motor/ controller and NMH battery combo.

"Yes" It works a treat.

The controller is programmable for speed and motor run.
The speed is via an adjustable dial and the motor run is adjustable in 1 minute increments.

An additional feature is the additional servo actuator for an undercarriage.
It activated 15 seconds after the motor starts and reactivates 28 seconds before the motor cuts.

COOL.

I am going to install the Brushed geared 400 motor combo in a free flight model.



.

Last edited by Humphrey; 05-18-2009 at 12:34 PM. Reason: inserting pic
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:19 PM
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JetPlaneFlyer
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Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
motor run is adjustable in 1 minute increments.
Where I fly even a one minute run would probably mean that a freeflight model was lost out of sight Freeflight motor runs are usually measured in seconds rather than minutes if you ever want to see the model again.

Looks to me that this timer is very much tailored to control line use rather than freeflight.. It also looks like it may be a bit heavy for typical small freeflight model where every fraction of a gram counts? (what does it weigh?)

The K P aero timer/speed controller looks like a much better bet for freeflight to me: http://www.kpaero.com/ProductReport....gory1=electric

Steve
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:03 AM
  #20  
Humphrey
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I agree with you on this one in most free flight applications.

I have been building 45 - 50inch old timer type sport models where I trim them to fly in low, slow circles, so the speed control is more important than short run time.

I fit a DT on the tailplane and set it for 1 minute any way.

The timer only weighs 3.5grams so is not much of an issue with the type of models I fly. The battery and speed controller weighs far more.
The other timer that you mention was 49 UK quid as opposed to $10 US.

I guess it is horses for courses.

Are you flying Electric free flight?
What gear are you using?

Phil.
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:31 AM
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The KP timer is only 16.50 (about $25).. not as cheap as the control line job i grant you. The Zombie controller I linked to earlier has a built in brushed speed controller so to be fair would have to be compared to a timer plus an ESC.. The Zombie is tiny and intended for small freeflight models and is limited to 4 amps, so no use for your big models.

For your big stuff then the control line timer will do the job I'm sure and is amazing value. The KP would also be suitable and would give you more adjustability on run time for days when it was windy (every day where i live).. But if you have a big enough site and calm enough day then a minute run wont be a problem.

I've got a couple of freeflight elactric models.. an 18" scale Polikapov I-16 'Rata' powered with the Zombie controller and a 16" Mig 15 powered by a micro EDF (30mm) and Zombie controller. I've got a slightly larger Mig 17 on the drawing board which I intend to power with a brushless version of the same EDF and the KP timer.

Steve
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:02 AM
  #22  
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And I'm still using the 3 component timers which cost maybe a quid (dollar and a half) to make and which work perfectly for the brushed motors I'm also still using.

At some point I may get into brushless motors for FF and then I'll have to bite the bullet and either make or even buy more sophisticated timers that drive ESCs...but for now I'm enjoying my cheap and simple free flight .

Steve
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Old 05-20-2009, 05:04 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by slipstick View Post
And I'm still using the 3 component timers which cost maybe a quid (dollar and a half) to make and which work perfectly for the brushed motors I'm also still using.
Can you get me more info on these? Sounds like they would work for me.

Thanks.
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:46 PM
  #24  
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Here you go. I've used many different MOSFETs and generally use about 1M ohm and 50uF.

Steve
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Old 05-21-2009, 05:52 AM
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Thanks Steve, I will try this little circuit.
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