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Flying Probs with the Firebird Freedom

Old 06-03-2006, 01:02 AM
  #1  
Ejet42
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Thumbs down Flying Probs with the Firebird Freedom

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I would like to begin by stating that historically, until the Firebird Freedom, Horizon Hobby / Hobby Zone has had many strings of winner aircraft, especially for beginners. The Firebird Freedom, unfortunately, does not share its predecessors performance! I have been flying electrics for about five years now, beginning with a Firebird XL - I still begin my flying day with this plane, even though there is not a single part on the airborne unit that is original. Some are 3rd and 4th generation! Only the transmitter is original! My current hangar consists of an Electrajet, FireBat, and several "modified" E-Bay clunkers including the little B-29, modified with LiPo, ailerons and elevator (reasonable (not great) flyer, but looks really cool in the air).

Back to the Freedom: It is billed as a beginner plane - IT IS DEFINITELY NOT!!! I read "Backyard Flyer's" "glowing" commentary .... and believed. Based on the preceding, I recommended this plane to an RC beginner friend. I am afraid I have wasted $140 of his hard earned money.

I can fly the thing! I can get it in the air (hand launches are not the prettiest), but am constantly fighting wing "tip stalls". I think that "ACT" (Anti Crash Technology) is a joke! It definitely doesn't help this plane, except by reducing control surface throw. In fact, it may actually hurt. I have been more successful with it turned off!.

Speed must be maintained! I have had to manually adjust the rudder-vators down to allow the trim on the transmitter to be neutral at the half-throttle detent. Once the plane has stabilized, it looks good "driving around" the sky; but as soon as it stalls, and it will at lower speeds, BEWARE!!!! Stalls are NOT straight ahead "porpoising" as all other of the Horizon Hobby high wings, but totally losing lift from one wing (the other wing is still generating lift) with the ensuing hard (instant, near vertical) wing drop and about a 30ft. - 50ft. loss in altitude if you're watching for it, and ready on the sticks. (Obviously this can get dicey really quickly, especially if you are a beginner, and not several hundred feet up!!)

Landings have similar problems - actually any slow flight can encounter a serious "tip stall" with subsequent wing drop and loss of altitude.

I have contacted Horizon Hobby Customer Support twice, and as unbelievable as it may sound, they have heard nothing of this problem! I have installed a new set of wings just to make sure the problem was with the design (no change in flight characteristics), and have had to purchase a new tail, since the tip stalls on landing generally cause a low altitude "spiral in" which will generally fold one (or both) side(s) of the V-Tail. The problem is inherent in the design!

I DEFINITELY DO NOT RECOMMEND PURCHASING THIS PLANE - ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER - UNTIL HORIZON HOBBY FIXES THEIR PROBLEM.

There, I've said it!! Now, I am pretty certain that I am not the only RC pilot that has had this experience. Have any of you found a solution to the "tip stall"? On a built-up wing, wash-out would be the answer, but I don't know how to make this happen on a preformed styrofoam wing.

I apologize for the length of this dissertation, but wanted all to get the full picture. Help would be appreciated! Potential buyers, you have been warned!

Last edited by Ejet42; 06-04-2006 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 06-03-2006, 03:16 PM
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Is there switches on the back of the tx to adjust/limit control throws? maybe if you release those it will fly better
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Old 06-03-2006, 03:33 PM
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Ejet42
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Darkside,
Thanks for the reply. Actually the ACT on/off does that - among other things, I guess. I really don't think control throws are the problem, but with ACT off, the control throws are larger, and this definitely helps the ability to recover without losing too much altitude. I feel fairly certain that the wing design is the problem. When one wing stops generating lift (stalls) and the other is still generating lift, the Freedom's wings go immediately from horizontal to vertical in the direction of the stalled wing. With nothing generating lift, the obvious happens. Hard opposite rudder with increased throw definitely helps, but for a plane touted as a beginner's aircraft, this situation should never (maybe almost never) occur!

Thanks again for the response,
Ejet42
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Old 06-03-2006, 04:06 PM
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I agree! manufacturers need to produce wings that are less prone to the devastating tip stall....

It might be okay for more advanced flyers, but you only have one chance to make a first impression. If a beginner crashes his first time out he/she will be less likely to pursue the hobby.

I feel it is wrong to market something for "beginners" knowing that there is a tendency for it to fly/crash in a particular manner.

Probably when confronted the manufacturer would say "did you use act" or whatever gizmo they think covers there butt!
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Old 06-08-2006, 06:54 PM
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Default Park fly Freedom

I had a chance to fly a guys Freedom at an e-flyin the other day. He was new and had not had success with this plane "never been in the air more than 5 seconds ). He asked me to fly it so he would know if it was the plane or him:o .

I wont go into detail but did a preflight and found warped wing, tail heavey, and crummy prop. Fixed all and gave it a toss, I had to milk it to altitude as it was very marginal on power. Had to fly full power to keep it in the air, and turns allthough controllable looked like if I anked more the plane would tip stall so kept them shallow. Yes not a good begginers plane. It fairness it does fly.
Not sure cause of the tip stall tendency but I did notice this bird does not have much of a wing cord, I would guess the loading to be pretty heavy.

PS: I did not use ACT just kept it on the highest throw rate anything less would probably be a disaster unless you just kept going straigh and level.
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Old 06-08-2006, 07:11 PM
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Ejet42
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Epoxycup,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have a running commentary with a Joe Chrisman at Horizon (I don't know his title in Customer Service). He is refusing to accept the fact that this is NOT a beginner's plane, and even a little irritated that I logged into this forum and sent a few comments to Backyard Flyer Magazine (glowing flight reports - yeah, right .... more like "glowing advertising" account), but he is willing to "get" the plane back and check it out (did not offer to pay to ship it back, though). The plane has terrible stall characteristics. Keep power on and trimmed down and it will fly - stall it, and beware! It WILL do a "wings vertical" before recovery, altitude permitting. These designers don't seem to realize that the wing needs to be configured such that the root section (next to the fuselage) stalls first, with the stall progressing outward toward the tips. This produces a very gentle, mushing, straight ahead stall, with no abrupt wing drop.

Thanks again,
Ejet42
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Old 06-10-2006, 02:04 AM
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I've had this plane, run through the same problems. It was my first plane and it got me through to my 2nd, that's all I'll say about it. Add ontop of this list of quirks collapsing wings. I collapsed my 2nd wing 3 flights after installing it and it left me with a broken fuse tail, folded wing and torn tail. I retired it in my garage after that. The good thing about this plane is that the gears in the servos are direct fits for the gears in a stryker. That's the best I can say for it.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ejet42 View Post
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I DEFINITELY DO NOT RECOMMEND PURCHASING THIS PLANE - ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER - UNTIL HORIZON HOBBY FIXES THEIR PROBLEM.
Well too bad I didn't read this three days ago! I was in the hobby store looking for something for my son's bday (he turned 8 yesterday). We have a great big park near us that is perfect for model rockets and RC planes. I haven't flown an RC plane for about 20 years so I was leaning more towards the rockets and waiting a couple of years for the plane...but then I talked the the guy at the store...Long story short...I left the store with a shiny new Firebird Freedom and $140 less in my bank account.

I figured I could get the plane to altitude and let him fly it and then I could land it. No problem. Tonight I charged the battery while we ate dinner and then we headed out to the park. Nice day...steady gentle breeze...checked the control surfaces...tested out the controls...adjusted the trim...ACT is on. We're good to go.

Full throttle. Good firm throw into the wind...The thing nosed up, rolled left and dove into the dirt.

Picked it up...no major damage. Pushed the wings back onto the body. Repeat the checks. Full throttle. Adjusted the trim a little to the right and a little down. Good firm throw into the wind...same result.

Third tries a charm right? I adjusted the control rods this time so we've got even more down and right. Full throttle. Good firm throw...This time was different. This time it flew long enough to get enough altitude so it could hit the ground good and hard. It wasn't the nose dive that broke our plane. It was the abrupt stop at the end.

The rod that is the fuselage snapped right where the tail mounts on it. The tail screws are bent and the motor mount is bent a bit. I've applied some gorilla glue and a dow to put the tail back on...hopefully that will return it to "flying" condition.

Two things:

1) Any tips to a complete newb?

2) Any recommendations for another starter plane for my son? I chose this one because it seemed (I assumed) to be a better choice over the other choice for a beginner plane, the FB Commander. It had a more powerful motor and a three channel radio. Obviously I was wrong.

I saw Hobbyzone sells the fuselage (w/o receiver) for $20. I'll probably order that...Is it worth it? Should I just order it with the receiver ($50) and use my busted up one for spare parts? Nothing else is really damaged (badly).

Thanks in advance.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:20 AM
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Boy, I hate to hear that, especially dealing with a kid. here's what I learned on mine. . .

1) to launch it don't toss it, throw it, throw it hard. It just doesn't like to get up in the air

2) the screws at the back, once you get them adjusted like you want (see the manual) drop some CA on them to hold, cuz they'll strip quickly.

3) packing tape on the LE of the wings for the dings. This thing LOVES to drop the left wing.

4) turn off act, it is your enemy. It will prevent crashes, if you are 200-odd feet up and are making long, slow turns, otherwise, It'll just kill power to the engine and frustrate you.

5) always fly it over 1/2 throttle and land a bit hot. It'll drop the left wing if you come in too slow

You do all of that, it flies okay. Mine folded a wing and broke the tail right where yours did. I got it back in the sky after that. You might read up on the challenger or the skyfly(I think) by hobbyico - there's a thread here - it is a challenger clone but lots cheaper
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jcblough View Post
Boy, I hate to hear that, especially dealing with a kid. here's what I learned on mine. . .
Oh...he'll be all right. That's part of being a hobbiest...part of the fun is taking something that doesn't quite work, figuring it out and getting it to do what you want. He doesn't see it yet (I could tell he wanted to cry when he saw it was broken) but he will.

I think I found the problem though. After the glue dried on the tail, I put it all back together and discharged the battery so I could recharge it fully. The engine only ran for about 2 minutes. Clearly it wasn't fully charged. Hence the stalling and dropping the left wing just like you said. I'll get it recharged and we'll try again tomorrow...My only concern at this point is whether or not the engine mount is straight enough. It was bent up pretty badly.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:54 AM
  #11  
Bill G
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I knew ACT was a joke to begin with. They don't reveal what the low tech, 2 dollar gyro technology is, because that's what it porbably is.

A real system, like FMA's Co-Pilot is much more complex, costs as much as the entire Firebird package, is a better value, and still not perfect. It down not fully allow the user to override with the sticks and has some response dampening issues. But, it does work. This is due to high tech 4-direction UV sensors, tied into a computer that compensates with BOTH ailerons and elevator, and does allow reasonable user override, by complex electronics that sense stick movement from center, and then allow those inputs to override the system.

ACT is most likely some low quality gyroscopic device, that takes over the entire plane, and has major issues with response rates, etc.

Solution: Get yourself a $35 GWS gyro, and use it on the elevator, if you want some horizontal stability. At least they work.

Better yet, a decent fling trainer really doesn't need horizontal stability gizmos. There pretty stable in pitch. My GWS Beaver is so stable in pitch that elevator movements are roughly 1/16" or less, and not needed continuously.

Ejet42, like to know about your B-29. How does it fly? I thought it looked pretty cool, for the money.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill G View Post
I knew ACT was a joke to begin with. They don't reveal what the low tech, 2 dollar gyro technology is, because that's what it porbably is.
ACT is like a poor man's FMS copilot. It has a light sensor on top and on the bottom. I was stupid enough to turn on act on my last flight, and the plane wouldn't turn. I was trying to bring it in to land, and I swear it wouldn't turn left and was heading straight for the only car in the parking lot next to the field I was flying in. I was considering nosing it in on purpose when I ran out of airspeed and altitude .

The previous flight I was doing stall turns, and it was fun. I am a little concerned I'm going to fold the wings though, thing looks like a big C flying through the air. I haven't really noticed any ill handling, but I haven't really flown it a lot. I hand launch with as big a throw at 30 degrees as I can muster. It seems to settle in nicely if the trim isn't way off.

Not really disagreeing with the original poster. I'm a newbie, but I've been practicing on sims to the point where I'm comfortable with some fairly responsive airplanes.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:36 AM
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Ejet42
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Default Dear Jeditanker,

I am sorry that you didn't read this thread also. There are 4 parts to this reply:

Beginner Plane:
I highly recommend the Hobby Zone Commander 2. It is $85-$90 now at most hobby shops, especially when you show them the Hobby Zone (Horizon Hobby) web site, with the Commander 2 @ $85! This plane flies extremely well, has no bad habits (like the tip stalls that the Freedom is famous for) and you really don't need to have to worry about too many axes of control (elevator) when beginning. The Commander 2 can be launched, allowed to gain a little altitude and throttled back and "driven" around the sky. As always, avoid sharp, altitude-depleting turns, and be ready with "opposite rudder" should a steep spiral (from too sharp a turn) be entered. This plane is just plain fun to fly.

Recommended action for "Freedom":
  1. Contact Horizon Customer Service with your problem by phone. Ask them if they are having any problems with the Freedom. Dollars to do-nuts they will tell you NO, we haven't heard any negative feedback from the field, at which time you may want to forward a hyperlink to this thread and reference your write-up. You, my friend, are not alone!!!
  2. Send back all of the pieces in the original box, including a hard copy of your write-up. I think they should send you a new one!
  3. When it arrives, put it up until you feel extremely comfortable with the Commander 2 - then fly another 6 mos. before trying the new Freedom again!
  4. Remember, these points:
    • The Freedom has extremely bad tip stall habits that are only avoided by maintaining a brisk air speed - stalls are NOT gentle and straight ahead, but a violent pitch, generally left in my experience and definitely NOT beginner material.
    • Hobby Zone (Horizon Hobby) is a reputable company that has many good products on the market - in fact, I believe that all are excellent except this one! I do not believe HZ designed this plane, but I also don't believe they tested it sufficiently before placing it on the market.
    • The Freedom almost has to be marketed for beginners - its performance is far beneath "intermediate flyer's" expectations and capabilities. Loops and barrel rolls (and not very good ones) are about the limit of the planes aerobatic capabilities.
My saga continues:
  1. Returned Freedom to Horizon Customer Service per their instruction (cost us ~$13 for shipping and insurance) for evaluation. They were going to check it out - I requested that if they found nothing obvious, to please fly it before filling out an appraisal.
  2. Did not get evaluation of the Freedom that we sent back - although we had the customer service tech's name on the address, by some unfortunate stroke of fate, my plane was "disposed of" (nothing broken in the original box, mind you) before it could be evaluated!
  3. Received replacement Freedom from Horizon Customer Service.
  4. Flew the Freedom:
    • This 480 motor does not develop nearly the power as did the returned one;
    • This plane still has the tendency to tip stall, but not quite as bad as did the original.
    • Still NOT a good flying plane, and still not a beginner's aircraft!
Conclusion and Comment:
  1. I personally believe it is irresponsible for Horizon to continue to offer this plane on the market - this is one of those unfortunate instances where the product needs to be removed from the market and the wing design addressed and remedied, even though there will be cost involved.
  2. Farther, I feel that it was absolutely unconscionable for Backyard Flyer Magazine, May 2006, to give such a "glowing" report on the Freedom. This just shows the effect that an advertising budget can have on "unbiased" reporting! I am a long term subscriber to the magazine, and still enjoy the issues, but will forevermore take their product evaluations with the proverbial "grain of salt".
  3. Thanks for taking the time to write.
  4. Thanks to all for taking the time to read.
  5. Please contact Horizon Hobby with your problems with the Firebird Freedom. This is the only way consumers have to fight back regarding an inferior product.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:56 AM
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Ejet42
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Originally Posted by Bill G View Post

Ejet42, like to know about your B-29. How does it fly? I thought it looked pretty cool, for the money.
Looks is all it has - However, it does fliy 1000+++% better than the original. Loops, barrels and low level strafing runs are the only aerobatics it is semi capable of.
  • 4.3g servos (2) taped under wings for ailerons
  • 9g servo (1) driving the split elevator.
  • 11.1v 800mAh LiPo mounted in Ejet hatch in fuselage in front of wing - top access.
  • Castle Creations 4L MicroStamp Receiver
  • Carbon fiber rod stiffeners taped to underside of wing
  • Pulls ~7A wide open throttle (WOT) - only used in loops - taking it easy on motors and wing load at bottom (exit) of loop. (wings still flex upward).
  • Novelty - Nice to have one of the few "improved" B-29 toys on the planet!
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Old 06-29-2006, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I was trying to bring it in to land, and I swear it wouldn't turn left and was heading straight for the only car in the parking lot next to the field I was flying in.
They find 'em.
I've heard many stories about the ONLY tree in the square mile flying field.
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Old 06-29-2006, 07:07 PM
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I too had all of the same problems (apparent lack of power, left wing over hard stalls, barely make turns). I was a beginner and became frustrated to the point of quitting but luckily decided to get a G3 sim. After using the sim for a week I put together a mini ultra stick and have not looked back.

I would not waste the money on a new fuse! Move on to something that will fly without a fuss. IF you are really stuck on getting a new fuse, etc. then let me know because I have a brand new fuse, several tails, and two batteries(less than 3 months old) that I need a buyer for.

Based on my mini ultra stick experience I feel that the Freedom is either underpowered or just extremely unforgiving if all wings, tails, control surfaces are not 100% perfect and true. I feel a beginner plane should be able to be flown even if it has a couple of scrapes and bruises I know my MUS does!
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Old 06-29-2006, 08:28 PM
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eJet42:
good post, I agree 100%. I contacted horizon concerning the plane and got the run around. "We've had no complaints" etc, etc. So I just suffered through it - this was my first plane - I guess It made me a better pilot in the end but what a pain.

I collapsed my 2nd wing doing a loop and contacted horizon again. They said it couldn't be done and would not replace the wing. So I contacted the guy that does the runway blog who got in touch wi/ the HZ developers and they gave me about the same response. Now the 2 packs I have from my freedom days (one that came with and 1 picked up seperately) aren't taking a charge at all. I got one guy telling me to send in the packs another guy saying send in the packs if I have the receipt. Frustrating.

On the reviews of the plane, the hobby media industry is just broken. It is in planes, cars, boats you name it. You can spend all week in magazine and websites and I defy you to find one poorly reviewed product. The reviews don't exist. All the publishers that do reviews are in the manufactorers pockets. You have to go to forums and message boards.
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Old 07-01-2006, 09:30 AM
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ejet42,
I've had simular experience as you and others. I wanted to get into rc flying so I looked on the internet and went to a Horizon Hobby store near where I live. Considered a Fly Dragon, but choose the Freedom because of the ACT (what a joke) and the larger size. I too was extremely disappointed in the plane's performance. The first time out it crashed on launch several times. I was able to get in the air and actually fly the thing but found it hard to control with any accuracy. I have replaced both wings and tail, had the tail piece break off, replaced the nose piece and collapsed the motor mount several times. It even landed in the water for about three hours with no ill effects!!! I've had the plane since the end of March and can usually get it in the air after adjusting the trim on the elevons and wing stalling at low altitude a couple of times on my first attempt. Once adjusted it will take off and fly with a good hard throw into the wind. This in NOT a beginners plane and I agree that the $140 could have been better spent. I'm not sure if the skills learned on the Freedom will be helpful when going to another plane since I haven't flown anything else. My advise would to buy a better trainer for a first plane.

Charlie Crum
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Old 07-01-2006, 02:03 PM
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Hey Crum, I found the lightning reflexes I developed keeping the freedom in the air transitioned nicely to a stryker You might give it a try. World of difference. The stryker actually like wants to stay in the air and stuff. It is weird.
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Old 07-01-2006, 02:08 PM
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More on these types of planes:
I've never flown them, but I can't see them being that good of a trainer, with such a HIGH aspect ratio wing. I could teach someone how to fly my Beaver on floats instantly. Probably the same goes for any good high wing Cub type trainer, like the PKZ Cub.

I remember thinking that the elevator function would be so tough to get onto, when I first started. I bought an elevator gyro. It collected dust. I think after maybe 1 more flight with a stable trainer, that I bought at the same time, and I realized the elevator is the least of your concerns. Once you trim the elevator on a stable trainer, it will fly by itself. Maybe a hair's movement every now and then, and on turns. Landing only requires gradual throttle reduction. The point is, that they are blowing smoke with ACT. I would have fallen for it too, after trying to learn on a plane that was beyond me. After getting a decent trainer, I can't see the need.

I think that they are trying to appeal to those extremely WILD types, who think that they need to throw the elevator to the stops, each time they need an input. That said, ACT is not the solution to their problem. The solution would be to limit the elevator travel with low rates or travel adjustment. On a crude unit, maybe glue some stop blocks on the throttle lever .
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Old 07-01-2006, 02:20 PM
  #21  
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ACT shuts down w/ the addition of almost ANY elevator input on turns. My first flight with act on, I was flying in a HUGE field. I mean on that it takes my stryker 20+ seconds to cross wide open on an 8 cell pack. 600 feet easily. I felt like I couldn't keep the freedom in it the turns were so lazy.

I wish I had bought a cub, but all the zone1, zone2 stuff spooked me. I didn't feel I could go straight into the PZ planes. Course now, I want a cub. It would be a "step back" from my stryker but I love the looks of them. I may pick up an ARF cub or beaver after I get my dx6. The freedom is a real disapointment. I could have done alot more w/ that $140.
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Old 07-01-2006, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jcblough View Post
ACT shuts down w/ the addition of almost ANY elevator input on turns. My first flight with act on, I was flying in a HUGE field. I mean on that it takes my stryker 20+ seconds to cross wide open on an 8 cell pack. 600 feet easily. I felt like I couldn't keep the freedom in it the turns were so lazy.

I wish I had bought a cub, but all the zone1, zone2 stuff spooked me. I didn't feel I could go straight into the PZ planes. Course now, I want a cub. It would be a "step back" from my stryker but I love the looks of them. I may pick up an ARF cub or beaver after I get my dx6. The freedom is a real disapointment. I could have done alot more w/ that $140.
140 bucks will build you a heck of a nice brushless Beaver/Cub, with floats to boot. I get asked constanly at the park about starter planes, when I have the Beaver on floats there. Everyone wants the all-in-one package. I try to convince them that once they buy a decent transmitter, that they can put together really nice planes for the same cost of the all-in-one package. Having bl power to do a quick vertical turn, to avoid a tree, is nice. Just can't so that with the standard brushed packages. I try to explain those things.
A couple of guys at the field have Strykers that fly great. I just don't like the look of wings. Other than that, they are pretty cool, since they are somewhat of an airplane, and not just a plain flying wing.
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Old 07-01-2006, 03:40 PM
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Agreed. I think the big stumbling block on the beaver on floats or other kit is it is hard for an entry level guy to drop the money on the radio. I went through that battle w/ my nitro rc trucks - got a good radio like 3 cars later so now I have tons of AM 2 channel radios lying around. I got $110 socked back so far and I'm eyeing a dx6. Course I wante a cub/beaver on floats for the lake here and a mini-ultra stick or dandy sport and and and. I need a 2nd job.

I wasn't/still am not a huge fan of the looks of the stryker, but man I love flying it. I just got back from my morning outting with her. 3 packs, loops, rolls, inverted flight. All on the stock set up. You can crash the heck out of it and it goes back together with some epoxy. I guess to stay current with the thread, it is more durable than the freedom. If it was self correcting, I'd say just get one. It has been a huge confidence builder for me.
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Old 07-01-2006, 07:51 PM
  #24  
jeditanker
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 7
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Well...I tried flying my FB Freedom again last night with pretty much the same results (and the tail broke off again. I'm taking it back this afternoon to the hobby shop and telling them that after four attempts to fly it, it is just not flyable. They can either make it flyable or trade me for a plane that is flyable (eiither the same or different model).

I'll also send a letter to Hobbyzone to indicate our frustration with this plane. I don't know if it will do any good or not.

Thanks for your help and comments all...
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Old 07-01-2006, 08:04 PM
  #25  
jcblough
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 469
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Originally Posted by jeditanker View Post
Well...I tried flying my FB Freedom again last night with pretty much the same results (and the tail broke off again. I'm taking it back this afternoon to the hobby shop and telling them that after four attempts to fly it, it is just not flyable. They can either make it flyable or trade me for a plane that is flyable (eiither the same or different model).

I'll also send a letter to Hobbyzone to indicate our frustration with this plane. I don't know if it will do any good or not.

Thanks for your help and comments all...
Best of luck on the swap out. I know my LHS did trade one guy out a freedom for another freedom, but I don't know what that will buy you. My experience with horizon is mostly good. I've hit a few snags now and then with them. But as it goes they are good to deal with. Alot of it depends on who you get on the phone.

Be sure to let them know your feelings on the plane, if enough of us do, surely they'll do something. My freedom is toast. It is in parts in my garage. I've just called it a total loss.

Sorry that one more person got this intro to planes. Hey at worst, I'll just make you more stubborn and bent on succeeding.
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