Hi-Performance and Sailplanes RC hotliners, electric pylon racers, F5B, F5D, sailplanes and gliders

Whats a entry level WarmLiner?

Old 06-20-2010, 11:53 PM
  #1  
Nuclear
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Default Whats a entry level WarmLiner?

Hi all,
just wanted to know what are some entry Level 2meter WarmLiners out there.
I've flown P51 micro, P51 ParkZone warbird, Radian also.

I want to start out with a 4s Lipo and and eventually move up to 5s down the future, so I'm looking for a Brushless ESC/brushless Motor combo that can
handle those duties as my skills progresses'.

I was looking at the Great Planes Siren, on another forum, someone mentioned
a www.NitroPlanes "KunLun" (spelling) Warmliner, and Multiplex Blizzard?

are there more 2meter WarmLiners of interests.
I basically want a RTF, but I know they dont come in the box like that.
I don't like putting things together,
I want to go to the field ASAP and have fun
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Old 06-21-2010, 12:13 AM
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kenchiroalpha
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Hi
Welcome aboard
Pleased to meet you
Imho heres 2 of the best
They may be of interest to you
http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=1544
http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=4840
Take care
Hank
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Old 06-21-2010, 12:32 AM
  #3  
Nuclear
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thanks for the quick response Hank.....

what is the borderline between WarmLiners vs HotLiners...
is the 3s vs 4s vs 5s Lipos' in consideration?
the speed?
1.5meter wing vs. 2 meter and up wingspan?

is there any vids out there
that show me a
3s Lipo WarmLiner
4s Lipo WarmLiner

to all out HotLiners?
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Old 06-21-2010, 12:39 AM
  #4  
kenchiroalpha
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Originally Posted by Nuclear View Post
thanks for the quick response Hank.....

what is the borderline between WarmLiners vs HotLiners...
is the 3s vs 4s vs 5s Lipos' in consideration?
the speed?
1.5meter wing vs. 2 meter and up wingspan?

is there any vids out there
that show me a
3s Lipo WarmLiner
4s Lipo WarmLiner

to all out HotLiners?
Hi
Your most welcome
This thread may answer some of your questions
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413527
Will post some vids asasp
Take care
Hank
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Old 06-21-2010, 02:15 AM
  #5  
Rockin Robbins
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You might also check out the thread next door right now about the St Blaze. This is a warmliner, not a hotliner, but pilots have been pretty consistent in panning it on first flight ("this is NO hotliner!!!) and then really liking it on second flight. I'll take lasting satisfaction over great first impression any day.

Might be worth a look.
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Old 06-21-2010, 03:07 AM
  #6  
Sky Sharkster
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Default Warmliner?

Hello Nuclear,
"Hotliner" is a nickname for the F.A.I. class of F5b electric powered Sailplanes (or "Motor Glider").
This is a multi-task event, consisting of a "Distance" task, a short powered climb, then power-off laps around a two-pylon course; As many laps as possible in three minutes. The motor may not be used while the model is inside a "Box" which surrounds the pylon course.
Here's a description of the F.A.I. course;
http://f5b.co.uk/?q=node/77
After 3 minutes the model climbs again (under power) and is required to glide as close to ten minutes as possible. Points deducted for every second over or under the time.
Last, a "Spot" landing, points deducted for any distance away from the landing spot.
Points are also deducted for every second of motor use.
Clearly, the most efficient aircraft for all phases is a model which will climb rapidly, glide well (slow and fast!), lose very little altitude or speed while turning, soar in thermals and be controllable enough to land precisely.
The top models have evolved to be fully-composite, very strong and light airframes. They have powerful geared inrunner motors with folding props.
The link to RCG is useful, but dated. Most modern F5-B's are using several LiPo cells, NEU, Hacker, Plettenberg or other expensive racing motors.
Since the model type is popular and distinctive, manufacturers have come up with less-expensive versions, generally called "Warmliners". These are partly-composite airframes, usually balsa sheet-covered foam core wings instead of hollow-molded or vacuum-molded. The fuselage may be plain molded fiberglass (or even plastic) instead of carbon-fiber reinforced or kevlar reinforced.
The tail surfaces on a Hotliner are usually hollow-molded with carbon fiber reinforcement. The hinges are built-in, with virtually no hinge gap. These are called "Living Hinges" and may also have "Wipers", a short moveable flap that covers the hingeline during surface rotation or deflection. A Warmliner usually has built-up balsa tail surfaces with normal hinges.
I have described the two extremes; There are now models that fit somewhere in-between. Partly molded, partly-composite, better performance than a Warmliner but not equal to a true Hotliner.
Here are several Hotliners in the $200.00-$500.00 range. These would be more of an entry-level model.
http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp...S&Category=540
http://www.nesail.com/categories.php?subcatID=21
Here are models that have a bit more performance. Price range $500.00-$1,300.00; http://www.soaringusa.com/products/s...ategory_id=262
http://www.icare-rc.com/power_glider.htm
http://www.f3x.com/
You can see from these links that the higher prices reflect the materials used, molding process, strength, finish, quality of molds, hinging and weight.
There is sometimes confusion between F5b and F5d. F5d is an electric pylon-racing (only) event, and the models look like small Hotliners. Wingspans are about 30" to 36", where Hotliners are normally 1-1/2 meters (59") up to 72" wingspan.
There are also many 2 meter (79") powered gliders with flat wings and ailerons. These are primarily thermal gliders but look like slightly larger Hotliners.
If you Google "F5b Hotliner" you'll find many more links.
Hope this helps!
Ron

Last edited by Sky Sharkster; 06-26-2010 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 06-21-2010, 04:17 AM
  #7  
Nuclear
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wow, you guys helped me soo much!
thank you for the explanation.....amazing!

I'm not going to race pylon or compete F5b sanction events.
What I want is "WarmLiner" b/c I love the combination of
flying all out, but will be able to float on air whenever I want.
Plus I'm really thinking on leaning
on the "KunLun"
http://www.nitroplanes.com/cmp-kunlun-2000e.html
or the
GreatPlanes "Siren"....at the end of the Video of the KunLun, the guy
says its a mild setup with 400watts?? what is he referring to?

Also, what isthe electronic package of
`400 watts, 350 watts, 600 watts, are confusing me.
My Radian as it came out of the box as 180 Watts (motor/esc/prop)
if I do get the KunLun or Siren WarmLiners,
what is the minimum PowerCombo of Watts should I get?
remember, my only sailPlane I had is a Radian with 180 watts.

do you all think that these are entry level WarmLiners
for a newb like me.....I just dont want to go in over my head with
the speed you guys are craving about..... my Radian is just a tid
bit slow for me when I oper her up, she needs a bit more caffiene
....LOL....hahahaha!

I love the dual (action/ floater) of these planes.
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Old 06-21-2010, 04:34 AM
  #8  
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i recently saw a maiden flight of a nitroplanes glider that made several turns and on a slight dive the wings folded.....the carbon fiber rod holding the 80"ws together was only a 1/4" round. the resulting crash destroyed the fuse that looked like molded plastic........best way to describe this bird is the same discription of its price....cheap!very very cheap. i will say this though,it looked really cool before the crash,looked like it should have cost $300 or more. i researched it online....$99 price tag. you'll get what you pay for.
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Old 06-21-2010, 04:43 AM
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Nuclear
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stuart, can you modify the 1/4" carbon fiber rod, or is there a
long piece to cover that wingspan of the Kunlun?

I just read about the RipMax St. Blaze,
fits my bill, but I wanted 2meters, the St.Blaze only has 61" wingspan.
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Old 06-21-2010, 04:57 AM
  #10  
Nuclear
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Rockin Robbins,
thanks for the info on the RipMax "St.Blaze"
exactly what I was looking for,
a highly sugar energize version of the ParkZone Radian.

I just wished that the St.Blaze came in 2meter wingSpan though.
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:53 AM
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anyone.......?
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:47 AM
  #12  
Sky Sharkster
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Default 2 Meter Hotliner?

Hello Nuclear,
I don't believe you're going to find a true Hotliner or perhaps even a "Warmliner" in the 2 meter span. Here's why;
http://www.f5b.co.uk/?q=node/5
Notice the two model design rules.
Minimum surface area 26.66 dm2
Maximum surface loading 75g/dm2
Translated into square inches, 26.66 dm2 = 414 square inches of "lifting" area or projected area. That equals a wing of about 350 square inches and a stab/elevator of roughly 64 square inches. That is the MINIMUM size of the lifting surfaces. It can be larger, but not smaller.
To climb rapidly and present the least profile, the model should be as small (and aerodynamically sleek) as possible. Yes, it might glide better if it were larger, but the climbing and pylon tasks are important, too.
The maximum loading (75g/dm2) is roughly 24.5 ounces per square foot. 414 square inches is slightly less than 3 square feet (432 square inches = 3 square feet). So the model can't be heavier (RTF) than roughly 70 ounces.
Apparently the designers who have been at this for more than a decade have determined the best compromise is a model as small as allowed, with a RTF weight around 60-70 ounces, depending upon exact battery and motor size. Lighter may be better, but considering the airframe stresses, it may not be possible.
It is also possible that the additional weight may help the energy retention during the pylon lap phase, while sacrificing some glide sink rate.
The aspect ratio of the wing (given a specified wing area) should be as high as possible for a good glide, but again, airframe strength is a large factor. So, most competitive models are about 60" to 70" wingspan. This seems to be the "Sweet Spot" for wing strength, aspect ratio, airfoil selection, and quite possibly, Rn.
You may find a powered glider with a two meter span that can be made into a Warmliner, or a lightweight Hotliner that performs well as a glider, but I doubt you'll find both in the same airframe.
It might be time to re-think your ideal model. The 2 meter span you insist upon, may not be available currently.
Ron
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:04 AM
  #13  
Nuclear
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Sky Sharker, thanks for responding. I thought this forum was slow....j/k.

interesting concept about HotLiners.
what I'm looking for is a 2m Glider thats strong enough to withstand
basic acrobatics (loops, rolls, fast rate of climb, something to get me thinking)
I like the 2meter wings b/c I can see it better.
I checked into the Siren, but the Wings are One Piece,
(wont fit in my car)....I also checked the Sprinter,
(on the NEsail website it says its a One Piece wing,
but on the EspritModel website, its say its a Two Piece wing? )
??

I think my best options is the Mefisto,
or Variant 3,
its 2Meters and the wings breakdown to a 2 pieces'.
Its also a entry level WarmLiner, where the Wings are strong and
made sufficiently without folding. I think this will
do, compared to the Kunlun and Alps on the
NitroPlanes website.
....and one more thing, I will not be racing in a F5b event,
am a sport flyer.....
thanks....

....what do you think about the Mefisto and Variant 3 ?

Last edited by Nuclear; 06-28-2010 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:06 PM
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Sky Sharkster
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Default Choices?

Hello Nuclear,
Yes, the F.A.I. events are interesting, they usually have a strict set of rules regarding size, weight, wing area and loading. So, it may appear the models are very similar, but there are subtle differences and refinements. Wing airfoils, planform and structural materials seem to be the areas of most development.
I have seen 2 Sprinters and they both had 1-piece wings. There may be a newer version.
I believe the Mefisto + Variant 3 are the 2 models that come fairly close to your needs. They both have sheet-covered foam core wings, so will be heavier than hollow-molded wings. It appears they both have built-up balsa horizontal tails, which aren't as strong as fully-molded frames. They should be strong enough for "Sport" and thermal flying, it is the fast powered climb and high-speed gliding or "G" force turns that really test the airframe.
Of the two, I like the Variant 3 best.
Most gliders (with the exception of slope gliders) aren't made for full aerobatics, the occasional slow roll or inside loop would be the normal limit. So, if you intend to do more vigorous flying, we're back to a fully-molded Hotliner, but it won't be 2-meter span.
There are fully composite + molded slope gliders in the size you want, that are built to take these forces. But they are limited production, special order models and range from $500.00 to over $1,000.00 each.
http://ecsvr.com/RC-Direct/shopexd.asp?id=1197
http://www.f3x.com/ Click on "Slope" then scroll to Voltij and Speed 2.0.
The Speed 2.0 also comes with an "E" fuselage option. This model seems to be closest to everything you want.
I understand that you are not looking for high-speed models, but my point is that both speed and full aerobatics put the same type of stresses on the airframe. If a Hotliner is too small and a 2m thermal glider won't take the forces of aerobatics, a molded Sloper could be the answer.
Good Luck!
Ron
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:01 AM
  #15  
xlr8rr
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Default Variant 111

Originally Posted by Nuclear View Post
Sky Sharker, thanks for responding. I thought this forum was slow....j/k.

interesting concept about HotLiners.
what I'm looking for is a 2m Glider thats strong enough to withstand
basic acrobatics (loops, rolls, fast rate of climb, something to get me thinking)
I like the 2meter wings b/c I can see it better.
I checked into the Siren, but the Wings are One Piece,
(wont fit in my car)....I also checked the Sprinter,
(on the NEsail website it says its a One Piece wing,
but on the EspritModel website, its say its a Two Piece wing? )
??

I think my best options is the Mefisto,
or Variant 3,
its 2Meters and the wings breakdown to a 2 pieces'.
Its also a entry level WarmLiner, where the Wings are strong and
made sufficiently without folding. I think this will
do, compared to the Kunlun and Alps on the
NitroPlanes website.
....and one more thing, I will not be racing in a F5b event,
am a sport flyer.....
thanks....

....what do you think about the Mefisto and Variant 3 ?
I have a Variant 3 and love it. I have had over 20 hours on my Variant 3 and fly it hard and fast. It hasnt broken yet. Though I recently upgraded to a larger motor...1400 watt and the wings fluttered in a power dive with this setup. For a good priced 2 meter ship with reasonable speed retention and airobatic abilities. I recommend it.
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:44 AM
  #16  
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Default Variant 3

Here is a couple of my Variant pics for anyone interested.
Im working on a video as well.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

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ID:	132256   Click image for larger version

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ID:	132257  

Last edited by xlr8rr; 07-20-2010 at 09:45 AM. Reason: add to
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:55 PM
  #17  
Nuclear
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nice Variant......we want Vids
how would compare that to the Mephisto?
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:12 AM
  #18  
xlr8rr
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Default mefisto or variant

I havnt owned a mefisto but seems the difference is in the size of the tail plane and the different wing sections MH30 for variant and a S3021 for the mefisto. Having said that my choice was the variant. I have no regrets as I love it. Fast and agile with some thermal ability. It isnt a true hotliner but I would call it a warmliner.

Last edited by xlr8rr; 07-28-2010 at 03:15 AM. Reason: add to
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