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Old 03-24-2009, 05:50 PM
  #51  
MikeJ
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Hi Hoffboy
I have considered using differential, but I was thinking that when the airplane was inverted aileron differential would increase the adverse yaw. What has been your experience. Am I thinking about this wrong?
Mike
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Old 03-24-2009, 06:04 PM
  #52  
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I'm betting this depends on the airfoil, but I'm going to quickly be out of my element as aerodynamics is not my strongest suit. On the EVA, which has a flat bottom, inverted flight is straight and level with hands off the sticks with and without differential, and entering turns appears to be linear with no obvious signs of spinouts or tail wagging. After I finish rebuilding her (don't ask) I'll look more closely at inverted yaw in turns. The great thing about it (at least with the DX7) is that you can put differential into one of the dual rates but not the other, then just flip back and forth for instantaneous comparison. That has been a real eye opener for me on other planes where I've done tail feather mixing, flaperons, etc..

Cheers!

Matt

Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
Hi Hoffboy
I have considered using differential, but I was thinking that when the airplane was inverted aileron differential would increase the adverse yaw. What has been your experience. Am I thinking about this wrong?
Mike
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Old 03-26-2009, 06:40 AM
  #53  
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Your ailerons are very, very far behind the center of pressure and acting more like elevators. You might be best off not using them as flaps at all I'm afraid. With the wing as thick as it is I wouldn't think that slowing down should be much of a problem. I might also be inclined to say that a higher aspect ratio would help that as well.

A longer, higher aspect ratio wing will generally be more efficient than a shorter, lower A/R wing at the expense of rotational inertia long the roll axis. On UrbanKaos I used a NACA0014 (14% thick) with a mean chord of 6" and a span of 38" which gives me a A/R of 6.33. That A/R seems to be a fairly good balance between lift and mass. I took that queue straight off of the full scale Extra 300 and Edge 540. Blake's wing looks like it's probably closer to 3:1 and the ailerons are half way from the center of pressure to the tail. That gives it a pretty long moment and a lot of leverage. Looking at it more closely it makes sense to me why Blake behaved like it did. A higher A/R wing with a shorter chord (and thus less leverage on the tail) or a longer tail would probably resolve it but that would add weight were we'd rather add lightness. Your wing looks to be about 15%-16% thick which could probably be trimmed down to 13%-14% to add lightness without detracting too much from low speed handling. I start to get nervous around 10% but many of the new ARFs look to have wings that thin and even thinner. It might be fun to add slats to the outer 1/3 of the span to further improve low speed handling.

I still think its a beautiful design. Please don't be insulted if my next build borrows several design queues from Blake.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:41 AM
  #54  
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Hi UglyNet
I think you are right on in your description of what is going on with the "flaps". The Blake has a span of 42" and a MAC of 13", giving it a A/R of 3.23. When I designed it I wanted an airplane that would fly slow, and I figured that a low aspect ratio would increase the drag and thus help it fly slower. The airfoil is the same as your UrbanKaos, NACA0014, at least that is what I started with before I did any sanding, who knows what it really is now. The problem that I have been trying to deal with is floating on landing, not really getting the airplane slower. With both the ailerons up acting as spoilers, I can bring it in on a much steeper glide path without adding a lot of additional speed, and then the flair is very controllable. The other nice thing is the increased aileron response at low speed. I was just out flying this morning, and it feels like I am getting the Blake to fly just the way I like it. Now I just need to build a larger rudder, but that will happen later.
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Old 03-27-2009, 07:32 AM
  #55  
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That makes sense. With that much wing area and a low wing you'd have a huge amount of ground effect. It does seem strange to deflect the ailerons *up* to land though! Any build that flies the way you intended it to is a very successful build. Congratulations on a very nice looking and entertaining model!

My problem is that I'm a perpetual tinkerer. The UrbanKaos was conceived with conventional gear, retracts and a double taper wing. I built it with a straight LE and swept TE to simplify construction since this was the second plane I've built in close to 20 years and a first ever scratch built balsa plane. I later learned that a swept LE helps stability, thus the trend in pattern ships to have a swept LE and straight TE. Version 2 of the wing will have this planform. I also learned that the nose is short and the tail is quite long being a direct copy of the .40 powered Bridi Kaos scaled to 65% or so. I don't have a hunk of aluminum (glow engine) in front so I needed 1.5oz of lead on the firewall to get it to balance. I probably overbuilt the wing and then fiberglassed it. The wing took a good whack when I ripped the landing gear off but the only damage was the 1/4" hardwood that I used for the landing gear mount. The all-up weight of it is 20.5oz so it's weight if properly designed would be right at 19oz.

Version 2 will move the wing back about 1" and shorten the tail about 1". Still with conventional gear and retracts but with a swept LE, straight TE and barn door rather than strip ailerons. I'll use two spars to simplify construction and a built up rather than bulkhead and sheet fuse assembly. Who knows, I may add a turtledeck or canopy to it then and call it something like Kaos Cruiser or pay homage to Cannonball Run and call it Captain Kaos.
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Old 03-31-2009, 03:14 AM
  #56  
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Default Spoiler landing video

In post #49 & 54 I mentioned using both ailerons deflected up to act as spoilers, activated by the flap switch. Yesterday I was able to get some video of the Blake 480 flying using the spoilers during approach and landing, and I posted it in you tube today. Hopefully you can see the steeper decent angle the spoilers allow. Ignore most of the audio, while flying I was confusing spoilers up and down. As a side note, my daughter, Bridget Morrison, did the video. She will be having my first grandchild, Blake Morrison any day now. Blake is the inspiration for the name of my airplane.
Mike

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCchN-2p9TEike[/media]
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Old 04-03-2009, 05:44 AM
  #57  
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Mike very very very very cool...oh did I say the video was very cool. My blake is back together and will go again soon as weather lets up me.

So flaps for what..spoiler for what...looks to me to be flying just cheecky clean...not understanding the spoiler thing
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:24 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by LipoPilot View Post
Mike very very very very cool...oh did I say the video was very cool. My blake is back together and will go again soon as weather lets up me.

So flaps for what..spoiler for what...looks to me to be flying just cheecky clean...not understanding the spoiler thing
Hi LipoPilot
One thing this Blake design does well is glide. Most of the time this is a good thing, but I found when trying to land, the darn thing just wouldn't stop flying, it would float down the runway. By using the flap switch on the transmitter to deflect both ailerons up to act as spoilers, I have been able to get this under control. As an added bonus, low speed aileron control seems to be better also. In my video, I should have done a few passes with out the spoilers to show the difference.
Mike
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:53 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
Hi LipoPilot
One thing this Blake design does well is glide. Most of the time this is a good thing, but I found when trying to land, the darn thing just wouldn't stop flying, it would float down the runway. By using the flap switch on the transmitter to deflect both ailerons up to act as spoilers, I have been able to get this under control. As an added bonus, low speed aileron control seems to be better also. In my video, I should have done a few passes with out the spoilers to show the difference.
Mike
HaHaHa...like glider AIRBRAKES!!!! You know whats funny Im not so sure it's your wing because on the Blake 300..same issue even with 6mm wing flat, it's a force land everytime. Shes a real flyer for sure...a Wattflyer
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:28 AM
  #60  
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Default New Pilot

You might remember that the Blake 480 was named after my soon to be born grandson, Blake Michael Morrison. Well, Blake made his appearance this last Saturday, April 4th. I am going to have to replace the nasty looking pilot I have in my Blake with something closer the attached photo.
Mike
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:40 AM
  #61  
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congrat's to you and the proud parent's. I have one to that is the apple of my eye her name is Maddeline My grandaughter loves the airplanes and going flying, I'm sure your's will to. The future wattflyers.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:46 AM
  #62  
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Hey, Thats great Mike! Congrats! He's already got one of the coolest Grandpas.

Yeah, the pilot may be a little scarry. I like him though.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:47 AM
  #63  
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Congrats, Mike! Very good news indeed!
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:55 PM
  #64  
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Default A good reminder...

...of what it's all about. Congratulations!

Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
You might remember that the Blake 480 was named after my soon to be born grandson, Blake Michael Morrison. Well, Blake made his appearance this last Saturday, April 4th. I am going to have to replace the nasty looking pilot I have in my Blake with something closer the attached photo.
Mike
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Old 04-08-2009, 05:19 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
You might remember that the Blake 480 was named after my soon to be born grandson, Blake Michael Morrison. Well, Blake made his appearance this last Saturday, April 4th. I am going to have to replace the nasty looking pilot I have in my Blake with something closer the attached photo.
Mike
Now thats neato...my Blake is (04) as the number go figure. I was just picking the month you told me he was gonna be born....didnt know I got the day too.


Mike I hope yours is fun as mine...warning be cautious if you allow them in the plane paint room...or atleast dont turn your back for more the a minute.

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Old 04-26-2009, 04:35 PM
  #66  
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Hey guys heres some videos of some onboard Blake 300...I guess because I have always flown my Blake 300 in large areas I never noticed the wanna keep flying Blake. Well in these videos I'm using a small park for my airstrip...this is when I noticed, the Blake will NOT slow down to land. I need brakes too.

[media]http://www.vimeo.com/4269538[/media]


[media]http://www.vimeo.com/4261891[/media]
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Old 05-02-2009, 01:49 AM
  #67  
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Default Tough day for the Blake 480

I had reached that very dangerous stage in any pilots life, that stage where your confidence far exceeds your experience. A rather windy day, about 10-15 kts, direct crosswind. One flight not to bad, but on the last landing I landed in a crab and jammed the rudder full over. I did a check of the rudder servo, and it had a little click, but not bad, so I decided to go ahead and fly again. As another pilot at the field said, sometimes pilot error happens before you get airborne. Still quite windy, and I lost control less than one mistake high. I am not sure if the rudder was hard over or not, but the Blake hit on the left wing and then rolled into a ball. Blake the pilot was smart enough to punch out just before impact, and he was found OK about 20 feet from the crash site.
I am glad that LipoPilot has the Blake 300 flying, at least the design will still be airborne. I think I will need to wait until fall to rebuild.
Mike
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Old 05-02-2009, 01:59 AM
  #68  
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Damn. I hate to hear that. You are right, he does not looks too happy about that.
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Old 05-02-2009, 03:15 AM
  #69  
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Sorry to here about blake she was a very nice looking plane. Your grand child does look horrified by the sight of your crash. Very cute looking kid.
My mini tele master suffered the same fate couple of weekends ago windy and overconfidence on my part.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:32 AM
  #70  
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I'm sure Blake will forgive you for what happened with Blake 400. Handsome kiddo there. What I've seen with my son is that Grandpa is infallible so it must have been some pretty nasty and very localized microburst that took out Blake 400 and certainly not pilot error!

It doesn't look like the fuse took much damage. You might build a semi-symmetrical wing for it. I'd be happy to throw something together in Compufoil to make some templates for you. It was a NACA0014 if I remember correctly. What was the span and chord again?
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Old 05-02-2009, 04:00 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by UglyNet View Post
It doesn't look like the fuse took much damage. You might build a semi-symmetrical wing for it. I'd be happy to throw something together in Compufoil to make some templates for you. It was a NACA0014 if I remember correctly. What was the span and chord again?
I was thinking the same thing! Back in the air in a week!
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:00 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by UglyNet View Post
I'm sure Blake will forgive you for what happened with Blake 400. Handsome kiddo there. What I've seen with my son is that Grandpa is infallible so it must have been some pretty nasty and very localized microburst that took out Blake 400 and certainly not pilot error!

It doesn't look like the fuse took much damage. You might build a semi-symmetrical wing for it. I'd be happy to throw something together in Compufoil to make some templates for you. It was a NACA0014 if I remember correctly. What was the span and chord again?

Thanks for the offer UglyNet. I will rebuild the Blake, but at this time my 63 year old wooden boat is needing some major work and has been feeling quite neglected. I think I need to shift my hobby focus for a little while.
And as I said in the post, some times pilot error happens before you get airborne. I was looking over the parts again, and I noticed that the rudder servo has a striped gear and a dead spot in the middle of it's travel. I'm not sure when that happened, but I think if I had made a complete inspection after the previous flight and I would still have the original Blake to fly. I really do know better, as a professional pilot with many thousands of hours in full size airplanes, I would have never flown this airplane after a jammed rudder without a complete control inspection. That's one of the things I love about this hobby, you live after you make dumb mistakes. And I still get to read about what others are doing in WattFlyer.
Thanks again,
Mike
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:38 PM
  #73  
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In all this havick and bad judgement I'm ashamed no one even cares about the little mustacheo dude who went on that herendious ride LOL!!!

I often think about my Blake 300 pilot "Capt. Blake" and all the crazy rides he has taken trusting me at the stick...what a fool. If he could say one sentence Im sure it would be "I'm glad this plane is foam acompanied with the middle finger"

I often find myself apologizing to him before any flight. Lets see...yard darted about 5 no 6 no 8 wait 12 times...clipped I would say 10 tree tops, and atleast 4 powerlines...all on landing. One video of the run away Blake, and last but not least I actually threw the plane into the ground..same video. And to top it all off Capt. Blake has been ejected from the Blake 300 twice..ya in flight. Once having to be rescued by the nice Mexican fishing in the Arkansas River.

Needless to say we all have let comfort override our smarts at one time or another...the balsa Blake looks oh so repairable and going off to work on a wooden boat will only let you swallow the crash and gather thoughts of how the next Blake will be...I don't see a repair, I see new Blake with improvements, Mike I'm sure will return with a new grandson model Blake.

Once on my Blake 300 the crash was so horrible I let the plane sit for 4 weeks, before I added the 2oz of epoxy to fix it...right now Blake 300 foam is 2 oz. heavier then the maiden model due to repairs, one more bad day and mine will be on the board getting a new set up too. The Blake was such a joy I think my next one will be a 50" WS.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:54 PM
  #74  
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[QUOTE=LipoPilot;598479]In all this havick and bad judgement I'm ashamed no one even cares about the little mustacheo dude who went on that herendious ride LOL!!!

You are right LipoPilot. After the crash I went back to the site 3 times looking for the pilot. I swear that when I finally found him he was trying to crawl away. I think he was afraid I would put him back in the air.
Mike
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:18 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by MikeJ View Post
I really do know better, as a professional pilot with many thousands of hours in full size airplanes, I would have never flown this airplane after a jammed rudder without a complete control inspection.
I have a grand total of 14.7 hours in a 172L so I obviously don't have as much real world experience but here's how I've come to see it.

As you said, your butt's not on the line with models so you're less likely to be as thorough as you might otherwise be. However with the time investment in building a model, particularly from scratch, you learn very quickly to be prudent. I do a control check every single time the wheels touch the ground. The danger in it is what I call the "Do it again Daddy" syndrome which is where you do something that's really, really fun like flying your model, then want to do it again immediately casting all care to the wind. I learned this hard and sometimes expensive lesson on RC helicopters where the crashes are much less spectacular, a bit of a pain to repair, and a whole lot more expensive as far as spare parts are concerned. $3.50 for a threaded hollow tube less than an inch and a 1/2 long, $15 for main rotor blades, $11 for the main shaft, etc. etc. At first I spent more time repairing my helicopters than flying them so every short hop got to be nerve racking. Over time I got better and seldom have issues in performing the only maneuver that counts, landing. The lesson from that though was to do a control authority check at a minimum. Besides, seeing control surfaces move as if by magic is just plain cool!

Enjoy the grandson. Enjoy the boat. We'll do the crashing for you!
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