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Spektrum DX Radio Trainer Port ????

Old 09-27-2016, 07:16 PM
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dereckbc
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Default Spektrum DX Radio Trainer Port ????

OK I am building a USB Joystick to RC PPM Converter to plug into my DX6 Trainer port.

In doing so I am not certain what Spectrum Radios expect to see. I know it expects a PPM Signal which is easy enough to do if you know the parameters.

I am assuming, either correctly or incorrectly, it expects to see a 50 Hz Frame Rate, 6-channels PPM with 1 ms low, 1.5 ms neutral, 2 ms high, and 300 microseconds between pulses, and a 2500 ms sync bit with 5 volt P-P signal?

Anyone have accurate source of info.
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Old 09-27-2016, 07:25 PM
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solentlife
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Maybe Andy over on RCG can help - He's Spekies man ..

Nigel
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Old 09-27-2016, 07:42 PM
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Copy That. Opened thread.
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Old 09-27-2016, 08:12 PM
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Most certainly Andy can point you in a direction compatible with DSMX-DSM2......

I'm no electronics wizard, so my experience relates to buddy connections with Spektrum DX5e, DX6, DX6i, DX7 and DX8.

The constant that I have found is the Master should be the more sophisticated radio........not that the Slave cannot be, however, in most cases where the Master is, the settings on the Slave (where applicable) must match those on the Master.........!

If one is "building" a Slave box "joy-stick", it would seem any TX adjusts must be recognizable or compatible to both Slave and Master.

I know there are quite a few threads at RCG that discuss Spektrum and other TX brands being buddied together (Taranis) comes to mind.

I and my buddies have paired all of the above mentioned TX's one time or another........using the appropriate cable adapters......without issues other than forgetting to match TX settings (were applicable). But none of us have custom built a remote to buddy with.......never had a need/desire since (with the appropriate cable) the exercise seemed fruitless since the Spektrum advantage works seamlessly.........more flying/teaching, less time farting around on the ground playing with wires and programming.......
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Old 09-27-2016, 08:33 PM
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dereckbc
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
If one is "building" a Slave box "joy-stick", it would seem any TX adjusts must be recognizable or compatible to both Slave and Master.
Thanks, but I am ahead of you there. The DX6 when Trainer is selected has two Master Modes.

1. Programmer Master mode is as you speak, the Slave radio determines trim, rates, expos, and mixes.

2. Pilot Link Master mode all secondary functions are applied by the Master. Slave transmits default PPM with NO rates, trim, expos, or mixes applied.

If not for Pilot Link Master I would not be trying this as that would make it very complicated code.

Got that from Andy when I asked that very question. Page 21 in the OM
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Old 09-28-2016, 05:52 AM
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Sounds like the DX6 will perform....nice feature Program Master/Pilot Link Master......was just concerned about "custom" adaption compatibility.

Curious, is the intent to perform actual in flight buddy box application or SIM application with the "joy stick".....?

Outside of the fun one may have custom "building" a cable/wiring to PPM/USB conversion and TX adjustments-digital/analog conversion....why the "joy stick".......?

Most of us would prefer flight training a newbee with a device that feels, looks, acts and responds like a normal TX. On the other hand, if one is just fooling around on some SIM, and cares not to invest the $$$ into a ready to play TX, I guess that would be an option.........
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Old 09-28-2016, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
Curious, is the intent to perform actual in flight buddy box application or SIM application with the "joy stick".....?

Outside of the fun one may have custom "building" a cable/wiring to PPM/USB conversion and TX adjustments-digital/analog conversion....why the "joy stick".......?
For me a Flight Stick is just a lot more natural and easier to use. I am a private pilot and have flown simulators for 25 to 30 years using Flightstick and yokes. Having Rudder and Throttle on one stick just suks IMO. With a Joystick I have elevator, ailerons, and rudder there in my right hand. I really do not even have to think about it, I just look to where I want to go, and my hand commands just follow naturally and does not take any conscious thought or action on my part.

On a standard Radio with two tiny joysticks, I am all thumbs fighting it all along the way. I never really use the Rudder much with a standard radio. With a Joystick just comes naturally, and I do not even have to think about it, it just happens.
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Old 09-28-2016, 04:21 PM
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Just a quick update. I have chatted with Andy Kunz and very glad I did or else I would have likely wasted a lot of time going down the wrong street.

Andy has asked me not to share the PPM Protocol publicly, so if you want the details either ask me or Andy privately. I will not tell you what the protocol is, but I will tell you what it is Not, and it is not anything like I thought or have read about.

If you look up RC PPM, you get pretty much the same protocol. Frame Rate 50 Hz, low pulse = 1 ms, neutral = 1.5 ms, high = 2 ms, 0.3 ms separation between pulses, 3 ms Sync bit. Nope not even remotely close. If you look over on the Ardiuno forum for the code, that is how it is written. Just fine if you use a Futaba or Orange radio, but not Spektrum.

Fortunately the code is easy to modify as all that is required is change the timing of everything except Mid Point is still 1500 micro-seconds, but everything else is different.
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Old 09-28-2016, 04:32 PM
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Glad that you got sorted ... Andy is a nice guy and very helpful.

I understand his also asking not to publicise info - it would be Spektrum OEM data ... so wise to be cautious.

Cheers
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Old 09-28-2016, 04:44 PM
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dereckbc
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
I understand his also asking not to publicise info - it would be Spektrum OEM data ... so wise to be cautious.
I understand too, but there is nothing radically different. If someone really wants to know, all you need is an oscilloscope. Like I said timing is what is changed, only thing that remains the same is the Neutral mid point of 1500 us. Everything else is different. For the better IMO.

If you really need to know ask Andy or myself. If you are a good GOOGLE SEARCHER, you can find it on the web somewhere in Phoenix as OEM's need to know to make equipment compatible with the protocol to use the Trainers Port.
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Old 09-28-2016, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
For me a Flight Stick is just a lot more natural and easier to use. I am a private pilot and have flown simulators for 25 to 30 years using Flightstick and yokes. Having Rudder and Throttle on one stick just suks IMO. With a Joystick I have elevator, ailerons, and rudder there in my right hand. I really do not even have to think about it, I just look to where I want to go, and my hand commands just follow naturally and does not take any conscious thought or action on my part.

On a standard Radio with two tiny joysticks, I am all thumbs fighting it all along the way. I never really use the Rudder much with a standard radio. With a Joystick just comes naturally, and I do not even have to think about it, it just happens.
Sounds familiar.....I have a friend who I "tried" to teach RC aircraft on a standard TX. He too felt a flight stick made more sense for him........he's licensed and owns a fairly expensive SIM to stay sharp with. He just turned 60 and recently renewed his night flying instrument rating license........owns a Beechcraft Bonanza. Although, not really a "joy stick", having both hands on a single control with left and right button management, I thought he'd take to a TX easily.......not the case, he learned how to fly on an old Piper Cub.

How do you intend to incorporate the brake and rudder pedals, if that applies to your set-up.......?
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Old 09-28-2016, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
How do you intend to incorporate the brake and rudder pedals, if that applies to your set-up.......?
Brake? There is no Brake to worry about. If there was a Brake I would use the Brake/Fire Trigger on the Flight Stick. All Controls, Trims POV HAT are on the Stick. There is never a reason to take your hand off the Flight Stick, or have to look for a switch or button.

The RUDDER is the Joystick. A Flight Stick has the normal x and y axis like that on your TX for elevator and ailerons. The RUDDER is on the z axis. You just rotate or Yaw your hand.

A Flight Stick is made so they are Ergonomic and fit your hand where your fingers and palm lay to rest perfectly. Most of the switches like Trim and POV are operated with your Thumb. Your index or trigger finger operates the Brake/Fire Trigger.

Most Sticks have the Throttle Slider at the base of the Stick, and you use your left hand for that. However some High End Sticks us a separate Module for Throttle also equipped with 10 to 39 switches. One unit I now of has two Throttle for right and left engines.

Then you have the Cadillac like the one below. Some of the FPV guys will not use anything else other than a Flight Stick with POV.

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Old 09-28-2016, 09:40 PM
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Ahhhh.........I see, not what I expected. Nothing like my friends flight cab in the Bonanza. However, I do remember seeing a "similar" set-up in a few Sheriff and CHP heli's I've been a passenger in.......Obviously, I'm not a scale pilot. Love to fly, but have no desire to command a craft, just shoot photo's, navigate and enjoy the flight.........
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Old 09-29-2016, 03:54 AM
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dereckbc
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My RC experience has not been consistent. I graduated college in 1979 and that is where my journey begins. Built a couple of planes and flew for around 2 to 3 years. Then disaster struck, I got married and lost interest in free time as I learned and was told.

Life went on and eventually I learned to fly. One of my buddies was an Instructor, we bought a plane. and I learned how to fly. Have not done that in 5 years now, got to expensive.

Back in the 80's when I was a Nerd I got the first release of MS Flight Sim V1. Started using toy joysticks. Anyway simulators have come a long way, and so have flight sticks.

About 4 years ago I picked up RC planes again. So I know how to use both a regular 2- Joystick most use on RC planes and Flight Sticks. For me and most find a Flight Stick much easier and intuitive.

Example a simple left or right coordinated turn is automatic with a Flight Stick. As you move the stick right or left to roll the plane your wrist naturally Supinates or Pronates on its own without you thinking about it. .

That and the fact you never need to look at your Controller to say flip a switch. Nor ever take your hands off the controls. All the buttons and switches are under your thumb.

There is a Down Side. Two big ones. You gotta figure out how to make your own. Not much out there you can buy that works out of a box. The other challenge is how to support a Joystick in the field.
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Old 11-12-2016, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
2. Pilot Link Master mode all secondary functions are applied by the Master. Slave transmits default PPM with NO rates, trim, expos, or mixes applied.
Are you saying that the Master doesn't see the Slave's rate. trim or expo settings when the Master is set to Pilot Link Master Mode?
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Old 11-12-2016, 04:02 AM
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dereckbc
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Originally Posted by splinters View Post
Are you saying that the Master doesn't see the Slave's rate. trim or expo settings when the Master is set to Pilot Link Master Mode?
No Sir I am not saying that, last thing you want is any rates, expo, mixing being applied twice. Think about it, simple math, For example lets say you set a rate in the Joystick to 50% and apply 50% at the radio. What do you get?

Your answer should be you are now at 25%. Same with Expo say both are set to 50% which means are running near 100% Expo. You move the stick, and keep moving the stick and not much happens until you get near the end of travel and bam you go from very little control surface deflection to max. You will crash because you have no control.

So when you use the Trainer Port, use the the Slave or Master to control rates, expo, flight modes, and mixing. One or the other, not both. You decide.
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Old 11-12-2016, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
No Sir I am not saying that, last thing you want is any rates, expo, mixing being applied twice.
I'm glad that's what you meant Dereck. Just checking

It's amazing how many people just don't get that.

Actually, it's best to set the rates, etc in the Master and leave the slave with a "clean" model setup. That way, those settings are maintained for both instructor and student. You would also set the Flight Mode channel to be the same on BOTH master and slave, and transfer control of this channel to the student when the trainer button is held down. This gives the student control of the flight modes. Let's say the Flight Modes represent "Beginner", Intermediate" and "Experienced". On the slave, the mode switch could be set to "Beginner", but on the master it could be set to "Experienced". Thus the student has a docile handling airplane when given control, but when the instructor takes over, he immediately has unrestricted control of the airplane. If the Rx has e-Flite's Safe technology, the channel for Safe mode would also be typically transferred to the student when given control.

Interestingly, some of the newer Spektrum radios have a "Slave" setting in the Trainer menu which disables all rates, trims, expo and mixes, specifically for use with a master set as Pilot Link Master.

Last edited by splinters; 11-12-2016 at 07:10 AM.
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