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Alright so you've blown your 4-in-1 / 3-in-1

Old 07-25-2008, 05:53 AM
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vortex05
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Default Alright so you've blown your 4-in-1 / 3-in-1

I'm going to start this article for all those that have broken 4-in-1's mine got blow due to an accidental contact of both tail wires when I was trying to determine which lead was actually ground and which was actually VCC.

Anyways to make a long story short I shorted the ESC for about 0.3sec and it's fried (the tail is always on).

Rather than throw my hands up and cry I'm going to write an article on how to fix your 4-in-1 / 3-in-1.

We start by taking apart our 4 in 1.

take apart the 4 screws holding the box together on the battery side until you expose the circuit board. For those with 3 in ones just take apart your 3 in 1.

Once you have the board in view it should look like something in the following picture.
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Old 07-25-2008, 06:03 AM
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The 8 pin IC's are your HEXFET's or to put it simply what you fired if your motors are stuck on now.

The top 2 are for the main motor. and the bottom one is for your tail.

Take careful note of where pin1 is on these SO-8 package IC's

Reading the label on the IC you see the letters F7413 denoting the IC type made from international rectifier.

So we pull up it's datasheet and we will be using this as our reference part.

going to your local supplier you can find equivalent parts just make sure to match up all the specs. For example I was able to find http://canada.newark.com/jsp/search/...sp?SKU=19K8279 from my supplier and it's datasheet confirms that the specs match my original part exactly.

But one of the problems with the blade CP is the fact that it's IC's are too weak so instead of directly going with the OEM part I decided that I was going to order a much more powerful 21A version as well (the stock part is 13A http://canada.newark.com/jsp/search/...sp?SKU=19K8331

Again looking at the datasheet it's not hard to see that the 21A part matches up perfectly with the 13A part the only differences are that it has less resistance (due to better high drain gates) and that it supports up to 21A continuous. I'm assuming eflight choose to not use this one because it's twice as expensive as the OEM 13A but since your at it you can afford the extra $1.


The next step once you placed your order is to remove the orignal part. Be very careful when desoldering surface mount you don't want to rip off the pads. Apply very litty prying pressure to the part focus most of your effort on heating up all 8 legs, normally this is a bad idea as you destroy the part if you over heat it but since you've blew it up already heat away.

Be sure not to overheat the nearby parts.

When you finally unsolder the part it should come off like the following picture.
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Old 07-25-2008, 06:06 AM
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I should be receiving my shipment on Monday so expect to see the write up on how well the final product is with the new 21A driving units.

Although it is possible to replace the main motor hexfets as well at the moment I'm not going to because of effort. But if this fix is successful (only reason it would fail is bad soldering) then it's helpful to know that if I ever blow my ESC it's only going to cost me $1..... and I bought plenty of spares of course, enough to blow my ESC 3 times over

Expect to see the completion of the repair soon.
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:22 AM
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GreenAce92
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How do you know how to do this?

Do you think that every chip has a layout or something for the path the electricity takes?
looks good man.
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:29 AM
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Well this looks interesting Vortex, I had a Question, do you think it would be a good idea to solder in a IC chip socket, then press the chip in, that may help to keep the heat from soldering off the IC chip, just my 2 cents worth, Take care, Chellie
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenAce92 View Post
How do you know how to do this?

Do you think that every chip has a layout or something for the path the electricity takes?
looks good man.

Well I'm a grad student Software Engineer and my area of research is embedded systems. I also teach Mechatronics courses so circuits you kind of have to pick up by trade.

Really the only skills I've used this time around is I know which numbers matter on an IC in order to look up the part numbers. In terms of the 2 compatable chips I just look at the internal chip schematic I've linked to on the datasheets. If you open them you can see they match directly and you can also get all the other info from them in order to determine that they are compatable, things like they are pin-compatable

I.E. the following pins 1-2-3 = source 4 = gate 5-6-7-8 = drain.

essentially any power mosfet that's an N type in a SO-8 package with the same pinout configuration would work. Provided the triggering voltages are the same and the other requirements listed in the table of the datasheet should match up. The only thing you don't have to worry about is current rating and resistance because if you trace the circuit board the HEXFETS are the last thing that the circuit goes through before the motors so the drain gates don't affect the rest of the circuit.
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Well this looks interesting Vortex, I had a Question, do you think it would be a good idea to solder in a IC chip socket, then press the chip in, that may help to keep the heat from soldering off the IC chip, just my 2 cents worth, Take care, Chellie

It's a really nice idea but the chips themselves are surface mount and I don't know of any place that would provide a socket for surface mount components being that they are so damn small.

The limitation to our boards is really size we simply can't fit anything other than a SO-8 part without major ugly extension wires. Also as I mentioned gates 1-2-3 are connected internally on the chip as are 5-6-7-8 you only got to watch out for 4. theoretically you could make an external mount for them and route 3 wires from the socket to the internal solder points. It will look ugly but it'll work.

I bought extras so if I burn a chip because my cheap soldering iron at home is too hot I can use the nice thermally regulated one in the lab I know we've used it to do surface mount in the past.

I'll try the 21A part first if that fails I'll go to the OEM compatable part at 13A I hope to have the complete details on Monday when the parts get in. I haven't seen a lot of guides on this only mentions about the parts and the 3 in 1 frying so hopefully all will work out and if you want to run your CP without a fuse in the future you don't have to worry about a $50 bill. Instead it'll be closer to $4
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:15 AM
  #8  
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Almost forgot to mention.

You know these parts are dead when you plug in your motor and it immediately goes to full throttle.

MOSFETS like any transistor usually dies in the ON position. If your unit won't even start the motor and the chips don't look burnt it will probably be a different problem.
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Old 07-25-2008, 03:21 PM
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Wow pretty neat!
Thats awesome!
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:33 PM
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alright I got the parts in!

my 21A chips and the stock 13A chips have just arrived I've now gone through and soldered them back onto the original ESC in the 3in1.

I've replaced every 13A chip with a 21A chip.

the result?

Stock:
Main Motor: 26A (max)
Tail motor: 13A (max)

Modified:
Main Motor: 42A (max)
Tail motor: 21A (max)

As you can see the results are staggering. In fact there's really no point to use a fuse with the new setup the power range is well beyond what the motor can deliver even at a stall. since I got plenty of extras in my rail of parts I don't think I will bother with fuses as I can just swap them out.

Having a 42A ESC also means I can opt to run a bigger motor should I choose to and puts this ESC in the realm of the more heavy duty ones you can get on a separates. No longer do you have to worry about running a 10T pinion as the 42A maximum gives you plenty of headroom. Heck you can even run dual direct drive with this setup with some headroom to spare.

total cost of 3 HEXFETS required to replace the stock 13A ones = $2x3 = $6

by far one of the cheapest upgrades for the blade CP however it's an upgrade only to be attempted by those of us that can solder well as even I had a slight problem with some of the contacts.

Just to put some perspective one suggested application for the more expensive HEXFETS I got was laptop use I.E. controlling the laptop power system. By that I think these will be pretty durable.
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:54 AM
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Looks good Vortex have you tried it out yet ?
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:59 AM
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Yes it works great there's no noticable difference from stock to this new setup however I did have to reduce the prop nob in order to get things lined up.

I'd imagine I'd notice the difference once I go to larger motors.

The piece of mind knowing I can fix the 4-in-1 after any mishap is good to know and the helicopter does feel like it has more head speed but that could just be my imagination. The resistance on the MOSFETS went from 0.010 ohms to 0.004 ohms so theoretically the motors are getting slightly more power. But I doubt 0.006 ohms will show up noticeably.
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Old 07-30-2008, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by vortex05 View Post
Yes it works great there's no noticable difference from stock to this new setup however I did have to reduce the prop nob in order to get things lined up.

I'd imagine I'd notice the difference once I go to larger motors.

The piece of mind knowing I can fix the 4-in-1 after any mishap is good to know and the helicopter does feel like it has more head speed but that could just be my imagination. The resistance on the MOSFETS went from 0.010 ohms to 0.004 ohms so theoretically the motors are getting slightly more power. But I doubt 0.006 ohms will show up noticeably.

Thats great to hear Thats the reason that I try to stay away from the 3 in is or 4 in 1s, I would rather replace a esc, or receiver or gyro seperate, than try to fix an electrical Board, but there are some people that have the Talent to fix those things, I think I could do it, but it would be a Challange, Good Job, Take care, Chellie
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:17 AM
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hopefully in the future someone will find this guide useful I tried searching around and the best the net has is bits and pieces so I had to resort to my electronics know how to put it together. Heck if I blow the ESC again I'll probably look up my own post to find the exact part numbers that work.
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Old 08-26-2008, 05:06 AM
  #15  
Seakiwi
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Great thread and really interesting. I now have two blown controllers from a Lama V4 (Esky). Beginners question how do I find the right numbers? The IC appears to have (reading top to bottom) the following data:

P712(T or 7)
Niko
F741(3 or 8)7

So it looks like similar part, can you help tell me what number to use or any guesses? The Ic is cooked from a mtor stall, however in my case it doesn't go at all.

thanks in advance
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Old 08-26-2008, 05:49 AM
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Ok, learning a bit more finally, looks like its a F7413Z .. what is the "Z" mean? Can I then use the same as you did? Thanks (sorry to be a pain, never knew how to read these till now)
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:37 AM
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I think the Z has something to do with the lead free or ROHS compliance.

The important part is F7413 like you have described. You can either use the reference OEM parts that I have listed or you can source similar parts yourself. The most important part is to ensure the pinouts are correct. I.E. four our case the "sink" "drain" and "gate" for the mosfets should be the same pins in your replacement part.

Generally these things are so cheap you can afford to buy at least 2 sets. I would get at least 1 extra chip just in case you damage it during soldering.
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:24 AM
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Default Thanks again

Thanks, I've got 5 on order and will let you know how it goes ..
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:40 AM
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Amazing write-up you did Vortex05 i was having problem with my 3 in 1 unit and i was wondering if it was possible to fix it.

Sounds like you just answered my question!

Thanks again for that useful write-up
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:39 AM
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Any time, I've recently converted my 4 in 1 to a Eflite reciever and separate 3 in 1.

mainly because a friend sold me a AR6100e for cheap and I wanted to use it in it with my newly aquired dx6i. I'll try and find time to post up that write up as well as everyone has been telling me the people going to brushless would find that super useful. it will also enable a HH tail option.

If you have any problems during your repair please post again, I'm glad to help.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:28 AM
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I have a question. I have a cx3 did not crash or short it out. Just wanted your oppenion. rite after I bought it around the 5th flite, it spinned counter clockwis as 1 motor was getting more power.powered down, powered it back up it was fine, did this again around the 10th flite same thing, around the 15th flite it did it again this time, it keeped on doing it. a counter clockwis spin, I placed my hand in front of the boom it kicks in the other direction for a sec then back to counter clockwis spin, Im sure its probly the heading lock frieing out,but could it be a bad motor or something in the 3-1 that could be fixed? if not anyone have any other 3-1 besides e-flites that is better quality speed control.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:10 AM
  #22  
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What you mentioned doesn't sound like a speed control issue. Your right it's most likely the gyro from the sound of it.

However are you sure your motors aren't binding or there'a burr on it? Have you checked your brearings? It sounds like it could be a mechanical fault where every once in a while you get a high amount of friction on one of the blade shafts. When it starts spinning does the heli also start dropping?

If it starts dropping I'd check for mechnical faults. If it starts rising then yes I'd check to see if they gyro has gone funny.

When ESC's blow they blow in "always on" configuration so if your ESC turns off when you power down your heli via TX then it's not an blown ESC.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:38 AM
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yea did not think it was the speed control, but the gyro is built into it. Ive looked the gears, bearings and everything over didnt see anything anything wronge. It just spun in a very fast counter clockwis spin and droped like a rock. luckly this happened in a hover no more than 3 feet every time. the last time i powered it up enuf that it would spin, and placed my hand in front of the boom. It kicked the opposit way for a sec then back counter clockwis, like it was trying to correct its self but couldnt.
kinda stinks as its new and did this on its own. anyways thanks for trying to help.
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:16 PM
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This would seem to be the place and persons to ask about the following problem. I'm handy with electronics but a newbie to RC. here are my symptoms:

Blade CX2 with separate 3-n-1 and receiver.
E-Flite LP5DSM 2.4GHz
Fresh batteries in both.

Ah, flying an indoor heli outside in a 5mph wind, the pain, the pain...after I finally found it, I now experience the following:

Fresh batteries in both TX and Heli.
Power ON TX with throttle and trim all the way down.
Plugged battery into heli.
3-n-1 LED flashes red 3 times then alternately blinks red and green. Receiver LED does not light.

TX OFF.
Bind plug installed.
Plugged battery into heli.
Receiver fashes rapidly orange, 3-n-1 flashes red 3 times, then red and green alternately.
TX ON.
Same light pattern, they do not turn on solid. (did not bind).

I tried a different TX, alas, no joy.
There are no visibly blown components nor is there any stench of magic smoke.

Suggestions?
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Old 01-09-2010, 03:48 PM
  #25  
Bill Fleming
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Hi Vorxtex05:

I PM you this am re a dead 3-in-1. Since then, I've found the problem and wanted to share it with your readers. I don't mean to hijack your thread, but this event is closely kin to the theme of your thread. I hope you don't mind.

When a reverse voltage was applied to my 3-in-1 Control Unit, everything died. Nothing was receiving power. I was sure a chip/component was blown. However, after opening the case, and after a very close inspection, I detected a hair-line crack in the circuit board where the red battery lead connected to the board. Had I not been using a magnify glass, I would have missed it. A carefully placed solder bridge across it fix the problem. The circuit board had acted as a fuse.

I hope this helps!

Bill

Best to all, Bill
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