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Sipa 200 Minijet 36" span 50mm EDF scratch build

Old 01-27-2015, 04:48 AM
  #1  
Bill G
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Default Sipa 200 Minijet 36" span 50mm EDF scratch build

Started a scratch build of the Sipa 200 Minijet, using enlarged outerzone plans: http://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=1655

The exhaust will be slightly over scale with a 50mm fan (39mm exit) at 36" span. The fan used will be the HK Dr. Mad 3s version which isn't the most powerful, so the build will be kept reasonably light with 1/32" fuse sheeting and partial wing sheeting. A number of mods will be made to the design, such as using the 1/4" hard balsa Guillows type wing main spar, widening the rear fuse exhaust exit a bit, and reshaping the rudders for a more scale like appearance.

I spent almost as much time debating tail feather construction, as I did cutting the parts. I was half tempted to cut sheet surfaces per plan, which would cut me a break from the last 500 framed tail feathers I've built, but they weigh. I also don't care for the appearance of twin boom subjects with paper thin v-stabs, so I built them from 3/32" framing tapered a bit toward the rear, that will have 1/32" sheeting. They're also made so that I have the option of cutting them for functional rudders, since I still haven't made that decision. The h-stab will be open framework with covering, to keep the tail weight down. The framed surfaces weight 4.8gms, so they should still be reasonable with the 1/32" sheeting on the v-stabs. With the fan location about as far forward as possible to maintain reasonable intake flow, the model still looks like it may be tail heavy with a 3s-1300 lipo mounted forward. Along those lines the exhaust ducting is made from light cardstock versus sheet plastic or cardboard, which weighs more.

The ducting appears to neck down thinner in the center than at the exit which would not be good, but that's due it getting a bit deformed when gluing together. Rotated 90 degrees and it necks larger than the exit, all in all being a hair larger than the final plastic exit insert. Constructing the fuse will be interesting. The fuse keels will be glued directly to the exit ducting at the rear, to keep the rear fuse diameter as small as possible.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:11 AM
  #2  
CHELLIE
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Nice start Bill Dont forget That I get to do the Maiden flight on your new Plane LOL
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Old 01-27-2015, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Nice start Bill Dont forget That I get to do the Maiden flight on your new Plane LOL
You'll have to come over so we can fly some of these planes. Gotta bunch that need to be flown. You won't like the weather here though, as of lately.
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Old 01-27-2015, 04:46 PM
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The Dr Mad 3S fan is really poor - its less thrust than my JPowers 50mm on 3S. If its the 4300kv version - it will run a 4S .... my Concorde Twiin 50mm is with those and I run 2 x 4S 1600 35C ...

With 3S ....



With 4S ....



Nigel
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Old 01-28-2015, 06:12 AM
  #5  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
The Dr Mad 3S fan is really poor - its less thrust than my JPowers 50mm on 3S. If its the 4300kv version - it will run a 4S .... my Concorde Twiin 50mm is with those and I run 2 x 4S 1600 35C ...
Nigel
I thought about 4s with limited throttle if needed. Good to hear it's holding up on 4s. This certainly won't be a racing jet. The reason for the 3s version was to attempt to keep battery size and weight reasonably low using a 3s-1200, as well as not having to keep numerous 3s and 4s lipos on hand. The 4s-850 I have for the Comet is roughly the same weight, so it could be a possible replacement. In the past I had to make do with the 12mm Feigao 30-50mm fans, so like those builds, light weight will be important.
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:10 AM
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I'm using 1750 4S pack on each fan ... gives me about 6mins with throttle control... I think...

I was initially worried that the 4S would burn out the motors .. but they are fine. Yes they get a bit warm - but every inrunner I have used before got warm.

It certainly woke the Concorde up ... with 3S - it needed a delicate hand on sticks ... witness that "Smack and Go" in the first video !!

Nigel
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Old 01-28-2015, 08:46 AM
  #7  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
The Dr Mad 3S fan is really poor - its less thrust than my JPowers 50mm on 3S. If its the 4300kv version - it will run a 4S .... my Concorde Twiin 50mm is with those and I run 2 x 4S 1600 35C ...

With 3S ....



With 4S ....



Nigel
nice videos dude
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:03 AM
  #8  
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Originally Posted by Ronald86 View Post
nice videos dude
Why thank you Dude ...

I make vids of all my flights if possible - so I can diagnose / sort out any problems ..

More on my Youtube channel : solentlifeuk

Nigel
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Old 01-29-2015, 01:09 AM
  #9  
Bill G
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
I'm using 1750 4S pack on each fan ... gives me about 6mins with throttle control... I think...

I was initially worried that the 4S would burn out the motors .. but they are fine. Yes they get a bit warm - but every inrunner I have used before got warm.

It certainly woke the Concorde up ... with 3S - it needed a delicate hand on sticks ... witness that "Smack and Go" in the first video !!

Nigel
Speaking of Concordes, I was looking at the HP115 when I chose this subject and had a drawing sized for a 50mm EDF. I ran this fan last night and it's not heavily loaded on 3s. I imagine it could survive 4s. Going off the 30mm Vampire which flew with a 6 or 7yr old 10C lipo in the video, the Sipa should fly well on 3s with the amount of thrust this fan has on 3s. The Vampire was a lot faster when the battery was new and it not extremely light at 4oz AUW. Very similar subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QFHPBempZE


I have something to play with now that the fuse is together. The parts went together pretty well, with the tail cone being pretty much dead on. I'll glue some 1/4" hard balsa circles a bit forward of the rear exit to the cone and the fuse keels, to set and hold a circular shape as well as possible. The tail feathers at 8gms are probably about as heavy as if I had used 3/32" sheet balsa per plan, but I'll take the 1/32" sheeted over 3/32" framed rudders for better looks over the thinner per plan rudders.
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Old 01-30-2015, 06:13 AM
  #10  
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Started stringing the fuse and installed the fan. The ESC and receiver wires are tied off using plastic tie points from a GWS plastic parts set. One reason for tying off the receiver harnessing at the receiver is to eliminate the possibility of having the receiver end up in the fan. That would tend to ruin a flight. The center keel in the front battery bay will be cut away, with access doors for the battery and the fan/receiver/ESC. The fuse as pictured with the 3s-1300 lipo is 9oz. I'd like to keep the AUW under 15oz, which shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 01-31-2015, 07:32 AM
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Decided to build functional rudders, with an activation rod running across the horizontal stab, which I've done on a few models in the past. The .020" wire sits in a groove, and is then covered with thin clear acetate sheet, which is difficult to see in the photo. Without the acetate sheet, the rod would probably get hung up against the iron-on covering adhesive. Aluminum tubing is glued into the hinge line at the exit points of the wire. The servo operated linkage for the rudder and elevator will probably be ran above the stab, to avoid interfering with this wire.

Started sheeting the fuse after inset planking the rear wing TE spar mounting area on the fuse, and gluing 1/8" hard balsa plates to the fuse formers that the wing main spars will sit on, when inserted in the fuse and glued to the fuse formers. The small 1/4" square cut outs are where the main spars will install. The fuse stringers are braced with stringer sections for strength and to hold their shape when sheeting, where they run across the longest span between the cocpit and fan mounting former. Looks kinda like Moby Dick, with the little holes in the fuse, in the last photo.
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:54 AM
  #12  
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A brave choice of model, with its tiny intakes.

I've often fancied one of these or the little Miles Student with similar challenges.

Both were offered as Jetex models - long before internet so no feedback on whether they worked.


following with interest

Jerry
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Old 02-01-2015, 04:38 AM
  #13  
Bill G
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Originally Posted by Expat Flyer View Post
A brave choice of model, with its tiny intakes.

I've often fancied one of these or the little Miles Student with similar challenges.

Both were offered as Jetex models - long before internet so no feedback on whether they worked.


following with interest

Jerry
I've tossed around the idea of building the Jetex Miles Student as an EDF. Another interesting and challenging subject. Probably one of the top 3 or 4 subjects on the EDF build list. There's a guy who built and flew one with either a 40 or 50mm fan some years ago on RCG. This build will have the intakes cheated a bit, as the exhaust was. At this size approximately 40x40mm triangular intakes are required to satisfy the fan. I'll probably make the span wise dimension a bit larger, and the fuselage side dimension a bit smaller, since the increased intake dimension would be most noticeable along the fuselage.

Printed out a real Sipa instrument panel for the model. Got a bit more sheeting done, with the fuse front bottom still to go. The tail booms are also assembled with 1/16" stringer gusseting on the inside corners, to allow for rounding.
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Old 02-01-2015, 02:50 PM
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this is a cool plane and very different, love these kind. Where is the intake for the fan?
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Old 02-02-2015, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Porcia83 View Post
this is a cool plane and very different, love these kind. Where is the intake for the fan?
Thanks, the intakes are wing root intakes pretty much just like a Dehavilland Vampire. The sit completely below the wing however, so they won't require faring in on the wing top surface. That makes things a bit easier since the wing LE spars can join the fuse and do not require being cut.

Finished sheeting the fuse with the fuse/fan/receiver/harnessing weighing a bit over 10oz. With the weight of the sculpted, built-up nose, I hopefully will not needing any ballast. Much of the nose is hollow also, so the batter can move far forward if necessary. Shaping the nose from layers of 1/8" balsa was a bit time consuming. I guess the one advantage is that the shape is consistent, when sculpted from thinner layers at a time, versus using something like 1/4" sheet.
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Old 02-03-2015, 07:58 AM
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The wings went together well with the parts cut to plan. The cut away ailerons were not on the plan and had to be fabricated. This is one of those projects where you have to keep thinking ahead, as to how it will all go together. 1/16" basswood was used for the upper stringers for added strength, and to install "main spar" inset planks on the inner portion of the main spars. These planks will butt perfectly with the fuse former in front of the fan. The idea is that I can cut slots through the fuse sheeting behind the mating fuse former and plate the two areas together. The 1/4" main spars cannot be joined inside the fuse, as they would restrict airflow into the fan, so this will provide a bit more strength for the wing to fuse attachment. The wing tip caps are loosely fitted against the wing panels. The battery and fan/gear access doors are also sculpted and fitted to the fuse.
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Old 02-03-2015, 10:53 AM
  #17  
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Hi Bill Just a suggestion, you may want to make the ailerons longer for better low speed Handling, at least over to the next rib, they look a tad short to me, besides that, every thing is looking great


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Old 02-04-2015, 03:20 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Hi Bill Just a suggestion, you may want to make the ailerons longer for better low speed Handling, at least over to the next rib, they look a tad short to me, besides that, every thing is looking great
Thanks. They are a bit shorter than scale, but they should be fine. I've found aileron sizing is directly related to aspect ratio. I've done a number of subjects with much smaller than scale ailerons, but the only ones I've had issues with are high aspect ratio jobs. Take the P26 below for example which is not terribly high aspect ratio. The model responds well with those tiny ailerons. I flew a BL EDF converted Cox airlifter that would not turn at all with larger ailerons and had to lengthen them a bit.

The wing panels are finished at 1oz, with everything on the scale at around 12.5oz. Planning to try to finish with four 4gm servos, covering, paint and a few other odds and ends at 15oz. The wing panels actually dry fit really well to the fuse, each contacting in all 3 contact points and dead straight along the TE. Figured I'd have to adjust them a bit, given all the little things that can change a bit along the way, using a modified hand drawing with hand cut parts.
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Old 02-05-2015, 07:45 AM
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Fit the battery doors with hinges and spring latches. After building a number of these spring latches with standard plastic and aluminum tubing, they go really quickly. The spring assembly is recessed a bit in the door underside, so that the loop that wraps around the slide latch does not slide around the 90 degree bend in the latch wire. Once the doors are fitted in place, the pin is pressed into the latching surface to mark the spot. The hole is then drilled and CA hardened.

Found a spare Miles Aerovan canopy that fit the curved top portion of the cocpit perfectly after trimming. Saves me from making yet another mold. The remainder of the glass will wrap around, using a simple flat sheet. The window frames are made from laminated 1/32" ply and very hard 3/32" balsa for the pillars. The aileron/rudder/elevator servos are also fitted in the wings. Never thought I'd say this since covering doesn't exactly excite me, but I think I will cover some parts just for something different to do.
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Old 02-07-2015, 03:45 AM
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Tacked the wing panels on. Gotta love setting wing panels on twin boom subjects. The tack glue spots at the small balsa blocks where the main spars sit against the fuse former were glued, cut, adjusted, and reglued a few times to set the dihedral (pic2). Now to reinforce the mounting a bit. The inner area of the wing panels will be sheeted into the fuse also, which will add strength.

Good enough for the front window glass, with a few small tin can spots only around the edges, and not the large refection seen in the photo. The top window is trimmed to butt perfectly against the front glass. I'll put that piece on later, since it would probably get beat up during the build process if installed now.
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Old 02-07-2015, 01:04 PM
  #21  
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Bill
Looking good but even with just a 50mm EDF the scale wing root inlets look ever so small.
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Old 02-07-2015, 04:10 PM
  #22  
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Love seeing this come together. Nice tease shot of the Dan Air jet too!
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Old 02-07-2015, 05:44 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Porcia83 View Post
Nice tease shot of the Dan Air jet too!
Check it here!
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74870
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Old 02-08-2015, 01:25 AM
  #24  
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Thanks for the comments all. I'm thinking that maybe I should kick up the ailerons a bit, program as elevons and fly this thing tailless as a Dehavilland Swallow. Seriously that would probably be one of the dumbest things I've ever done. The wings are now mounted with the inner area sheeted to the fuse, and a continuous spar glued to the upper main spars that runs across the fuse and is glued to the mating fuse former.


Originally Posted by quorneng View Post
Bill
Looking good but even with just a 50mm EDF the scale wing root inlets look ever so small.
With 35x46 openings the intakes meet FSA of the fan, with a bit of excess. This is fairly decent sized model at 36" so the relative scale may be a bit difficult to see in the photos. The intakes were never fully trimmed to size until last night also, since my fingers tend to chip up the thin 1/32" balsa edge at the opening, so they've now gained about an additional 1.5MM height wise. You can barely see this change in the last photo.

Originally Posted by Porcia83 View Post
Love seeing this come together. Nice tease shot of the Dan Air jet too!
That thing will have to fly soon, since it's part of the contest. I'm thinking maybe I should fly it first and get some video, then post at the RCG ducted fan forum as a "Think it 'll fly?" thread, just to get all the expert naysayers on their EDF fourms chiming in. Then quote them all and post the video. You know how much love they have at that place, especially in the EDF forums.
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Old 02-08-2015, 08:21 AM
  #25  
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Faired in the inlet ducting at 35mm x 46mm, measured from the flat bottom of the wing. The dihedral adds a bit of area, which puts it a bit over FSA. The inlet openings at the fuse were trimmed yet another 1/2 mm after installing the farings, making them larger than seen in previous post's photos. I've also found in the past that having the majority of the area in the clean air path is easily as important as meeting FSA. The farings were made in sections, as it was enough of a job trimming them to perfectly meet the outlines on the fuse and wing, drawn using templates. The individual sections were spliced using thin acetate, which was glued to the back of each sheet as it was installed, providing a joining surface for the next sheet section. The flares at the rear was created with rounded gussets under the sheeting, with a small fillet on each side remaining to be sculpted from balsa. The inlet openings were also lined on the outer surface with a strip of acetate, to reinforce the thin balsa sheet edge.

Everything on the scale now weighs 13.3oz, with the ailerons, booms, v-stab, and access doors already covered. C 15oz should be doable with Microlite covering on the remaining areas and paint.
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Last edited by Bill G; 02-14-2015 at 10:18 AM. Reason: 1/2mm, not 1/5
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