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Bird of Time Electric Conversion

Old 03-17-2013, 08:34 PM
  #151  
Larry3215
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Im short on time Ed, so I will have to go into detail later, but I think you just proved my point

In the mean time, Ive attached some of Gordy's articles on CG and trim.
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:23 PM
  #152  
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Larry3215 - Thanks for that! Very interesting articles and they certainly make sense. Printed them out to take to the field if/when we ever get warmer weather up here!!
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:28 AM
  #153  
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In case some of you were wondering, MrEd and I decided to take our debate off the thread to keep things from getting too off topic. We will report our conclusions once we have come to an understanding or agreed to disagree
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:40 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by SuperCub Man View Post
Larry3215 - Thanks for that! Very interesting articles and they certainly make sense. Printed them out to take to the field if/when we ever get warmer weather up here!!
I read those back when they first came out but basically dismissed his technique as being unnecessary. I "knew how to do the dive test and didnt need any help" was my attitude. Ive only changed my mind and moved over to agreeing with Gordy in the last year or so.

However, I have changed the way Gordy does the test to suit my field and my preferences. I cant really hand toss a model and let it land where ever it wants - too many cow patties, black berry bushes and muddy spots!

What I do is get the model up one mistake hi and set it into a steady hands off glide. Then I sloooooly add in up trim one click at a time letting the model slow down very gradually. What Im doing here is sneaking up on the stall.

If there is too much lead in the nose, the model will drop its nose sharply at some point as it slows down. That means the elevator was unable to hold the nose up at slow speed. In other words - you are too nose heavy.

If that happens, take out some lead and move the CG back and re-do the test.

You know you're close when the model begins very gently drop the nose or to mush instead of dropping the nose. At that point you are very close to Gordy's ideal CG position. I actually like my CG just a hair more forward than the mush position - but just a very small hair.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:17 PM
  #155  
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OK, I think Larry and I have hashed this out to the point that I think we both had a slight misunderstanding of what the other was trying to say. This may be in part because I sometimes take things for granted and leave them out, but that is not always right for everyone and they don't completely understand what I am trying to say.

What it amounts to is, both ways work and will get you there. It just depends on your understanding of what was said, so that being the case, if anyone has any questions on what I was saying, I will be more then happy to try and explain it if I can.

Both systems take it for granted that you pretty much know how a plane flies, but like I said, if there are any questions I will be more then happy to try and get rid of any confusion.

Ed
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:00 AM
  #156  
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Supercub Man,

I have ordered my BOT and will be converting it to electric also. I will be adding spoilers to mine and did see the HK, air brakes, that you installed. They looked great and had a cool factor about them but they are quite heavy. I believe i can build a set of traditional spoilers fairly easy and they will be much lighter than the HK air breaks. This is where i would start if weight was a concern.

I agree that you may have cut too much of the nose off but i think i would try and add fiberglass to extend the nose and move the motor forward.

It seems most of the builds are adding weight even with the motors they are installing. My thinking is to install a heavier motor and battery to not have to install as much lead. I will provide a link to the motor i will be installing. I do not know the weight of your motor but the one im installing is 180 grams its diameter is 35mm and length is 58. I think it will fit nicely.

Your idea of reshaping the nose so it is round is exactly what i was wanting to do also. Looks good. Most of the conversions leave a big scoop underneath and I did not like the looks or all the debris that would fly in on landings Were you just able to force it round or did you have to heat it up to take shape?

You did a great job on the installation it looks very good.

Thanks

Scott
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:02 AM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by bluegsxr6 View Post
Supercub Man,

I have ordered my BOT and will be converting it to electric also. I will be adding spoilers to mine and did see the HK, air brakes, that you installed. They looked great and had a cool factor about them but they are quite heavy. I believe i can build a set of traditional spoilers fairly easy and they will be much lighter than the HK air breaks. This is where i would start if weight was a concern.

I agree that you may have cut too much of the nose off but i think i would try and add fiberglass to extend the nose and move the motor forward.

It seems most of the builds are adding weight even with the motors they are installing. My thinking is to install a heavier motor and battery to not have to install as much lead. I will provide a link to the motor i will be installing. I do not know the weight of your motor but the one im installing is 180 grams its diameter is 35mm and length is 58. I think it will fit nicely.

Your idea of reshaping the nose so it is round is exactly what i was wanting to do also. Looks good. Most of the conversions leave a big scoop underneath and I did not like the looks or all the debris that would fly in on landings Were you just able to force it round or did you have to heat it up to take shape?

You did a great job on the installation it looks very good.

Thanks

Scott
Here is the link to the motor http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...4_6_840kv.html
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:44 PM
  #158  
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bluegsxr6 - Thanks for the comments Scott. I was at first worried about the weight until I learned that the original designer used to ADD weight in order to penetrate better on windy days. Original kit weight was around 70oz. (heavier than listed in specs) and mine came upt around 84oz. - not really too bad! The spoilers I have added may add a little weight but that is negligible in the all up scheme of things. This bird performs well and maybe better with a little oomph behind it! The simplicity of the installation far outweighs any ounce or two weight gain.
The Firepower 10 sport motor I have weighs 105g so it is a light-weight compared to yours. However it takes much less space allowing for a larger battery or room for weights. There is not a lot of room in the nose of this bird- Space is at a premium even if I were to add to the nose. I would rather buy another fuse than attempt adding to this one. I'm sure I would ruin the looks and make it look like a "hack job"!
The fuse was easily formed with the heat from my hand and some gentle "squeezing" as I drew the firewall up through the fuse. You can feel where the fuse isn't rubbing against the firewall as it advances and shape it with your hand as you pull. You have to cut the fuse aft of the "chin" under the nose as this just wont bend. I guess you could always sand that lump down and re-paint!
Good luck with you build!!
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Old 05-28-2013, 02:02 AM
  #159  
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Supercub

How about
Some feedback on your build. How did she fly? Was your power setup good enough, etc.

Thank you,

Scott
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Old 06-09-2013, 08:36 PM
  #160  
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Default My BoT build

She had her first flight today. Wow she is pleasure to soar with. I used this thread to help me build this kit and i borrowed a few things from the builders here. Thank you for the help, I will try and walk you thru my build and add my two cents maybe i can help the next person.

First off the instructions need some updating and there are some steps left out. The parts list are old so i'll show you what i used instead. The major step that was left out and got me was the wing joiner instructions. There are four ply pieces and four aluminum pieces that have to be glued together to make the wing joiners. There is a thin side and a thick side to the joiner they mention. What they don't tell you is there are two thin peices of ply and two thicker pieces of ply. Well I ended up gluing the two thin pieces together and the two thick peices together. Don't make that mistake. I had break them apart after they dried and create new ply pieces.

I was not happy with the all white color scheme on the bottom so i added some color. I chose to use the top color scheme with orange recognition stripes with black trim. I knew the black trim would not show when at altitude but it looks good on the ground

More to come

Scott
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:22 PM
  #161  
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Default My BoT build 2

My approach to the build was to lighten the tail as much as possible and choosing parts that would help balance the plane rather than having to add lead to get cg correct.

Parts List for the Build
42mm Spinner http://www.espritmodel.com/aeronaut-...ropellers.aspx with 14 x 6 prop
Motor http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...4_6_840kv.html
ESC http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...rodID=EFLA1060
Battery 3300 4s Sky Lipo

ESC is overkill but had it laying around. With this combo BoT has a great climb rate and uses 42 amps at full throttle.

Servos http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...9kg_13sec.html. These servos are comparable to Hitec hs65mg. These are a little stronger, have great centering and are much cheaper. These are good for the rudder also. Instructions show a standard servo, not necessary.

Carbon fiber pushrods 0.060" Carbon Pushrods w/Teflon Tubing (2)
Suitable for Supra http://www.kennedycomposites.com/misc.htm#/ My kit was missing the steel pushrod for the rudder but I was going to replace it anyway. To secure pushrods I used spray foam down the fuselage but i think i made a mistake in using a mild expanding foam. I was concerned about damage fuselage if it expanded too much. Something firmer would have been better I think.

Bell Crank http://shop.dubro.com/p/90-degree-nylon-bellcrank-assembly-qty-pkg-2. This allowed my to move elevator servo to underneath wing.

Clevis http://shop.dubro.com/p/nylon-kwik-l...s-clevis?pp=12 The provided pushrod comes with a soldered treaded shaft with a z bend wire. For a more solid connection i removed z bend and installed a threaded shaft with a clevis. Zero slop.

Instead of using rudder control horn provided i decided to make my own out of fiberglass and glue it in. They included a nylon horn with two screws.

Motor mount. I cut a small hole in the nose and chipped out the existing weight. Made 40mm mount of heavy ply and made it round. I used a method in this tread to take the oval out of the fuselage and make it round. I Didn't like the scoop on the bottom of some of the builds. With a small hole in the nose and 40mm firewall cut i was able to manipulate it in to fit with the correct angles. After it was glued in i then was able to trim nose flush with firewall.

Pics to follow

Scott
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:55 PM
  #162  
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Default My Bot Build 3

Build pics.

The next things for the build are you install spoilers. And I am going to do a little paint work. Why they put a red stripe down the side who knows but i will change it to orange for black.

I think I will do EZ linkage Spoiler http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=955499&highlight=ez+spoilers.

I was able to get cg to 4 inches without adding any other weight.

Scott
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:59 PM
  #163  
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Scott!

Nice Job!
Thanks for sharing!
Post a video of your
BOT when you can?

REGARDS
Jimmy
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:22 AM
  #164  
bluegsxr6
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Default My BoT build 4

Well it was a bit of a learning experience install spoilers. Since i had never done it before. I first attempted to use trailing edge material for the spoiler but i was unhappy with how much material i had to remove in order to get them to fit. So after i dug out the ribs on one side I reinforced them back up and got a sheet of aluminum and used that for my spoilers. Much happier with how it turned out and very low profile. I was able to put monocote on them also. Just have to install the servos. Not going to use a y connector for spoilers would like to adjust them individually. Here are some pics.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:14 PM
  #165  
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Finally got a chance to maiden my B.O.T. Had taken her to the field a couple of times but the conditions weren't favorable so I had only hand tossed to test the glide. My CG is quite a way back and it concerned me, but she tested really well. So finally the weather seemed good and I gave her 1/2 throttle and tossed her at the horizon. She flew straight and easily so I gave her a little up and eased into full throttle. WOW! Took off like a scared rabbit and went straight up. I throttled back to 3/4 and she climbed steadily to a nice height and I leveled off. Flew her around for a while fighting with her all the way until I learned to ease off on the controls. Too much rudder put her into a dive which was easily recovered from. A nudge on the rudder was all it took to bring her into a nice wide circle with just a little nudge up on the elev. She was beautiful even though it took me a while get used to her. I couldn't remember in my excitement if I had put in dual rates so I just guided her around by breathing on the controls. I had set her up per manual instructions but she needed lower rates so I finally brought her in. The first approach I just let her settle but she'd have none of that and flew by with out a care about 4ft. off the ground. The second time I brought her in, at the edge of the field I eased up the spoilers about 50%, corrected the nose down attitude with a little up elev. and she landed 2/3 way down the field - nice and gentle like a lady!! Decided I'd done enough for one day and took her home to check the throws and rates.
But I am really pleased with her flight - despite her 82oz. she flew like a lightweight. The motor was more than powerful enough and the spoilers worked to perfection and the CG seemed to be right on. If she's a little tail heavy at about 4 3/8", I couldn't tell. We'll test her out more on the next flight.
(Specs on her were listed in Posting #135)
I made a couple of changes in that I swapped out the Kraft servos for some light weight HobbyKing, moved them up under the wing and replaced the kit supplied metal push rods for Dubro Lazer rods. I think it took a little weight out of the tail.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:03 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by SuperCub Man View Post
Finally got a chance to maiden my B.O.T. Had taken her to the field a couple of times but the conditions weren't favorable so I had only hand tossed to test the glide. My CG is quite a way back and it concerned me, but she tested really well. So finally the weather seemed good and I gave her 1/2 throttle and tossed her at the horizon. She flew straight and easily so I gave her a little up and eased into full throttle. WOW! Took off like a scared rabbit and went straight up. I throttled back to 3/4 and she climbed steadily to a nice height and I leveled off. Flew her around for a while fighting with her all the way until I learned to ease off on the controls. Too much rudder put her into a dive which was easily recovered from. A nudge on the rudder was all it took to bring her into a nice wide circle with just a little nudge up on the elev. She was beautiful even though it took me a while get used to her. I couldn't remember in my excitement if I had put in dual rates so I just guided her around by breathing on the controls. I had set her up per manual instructions but she needed lower rates so I finally brought her in. The first approach I just let her settle but she'd have none of that and flew by with out a care about 4ft. off the ground. The second time I brought her in, at the edge of the field I eased up the spoilers about 50%, corrected the nose down attitude with a little up elev. and she landed 2/3 way down the field - nice and gentle like a lady!!
Yeah
Brings back memories of my two identical Craftaire 10 foot wingspan Viking sailplanes I built back in the mid 1980's. Both were built as standard winch type sailplanes. But around here, it was difficult to find a field big enough for laying out that winch.

So, one of them had the nose hacked off, and a Astroflight Geared 40 motor was installed up front, along with a 18 cell Nicad pack. That thing flew so well, it didn't take long to modify the second Viking sailplane with a similar power package.

And, as you've noted, when electrifying these sailplanes, its almost mandatory to install spoilers. These electric launches can get your model so high, it can be difficult to get them back down. Mine had a number of two hour plus flights on them.

Now we've got much higher powered brushless motors and Lithium type batteries, so it's much easier to convert these models to electric launch without real issues of added weight.
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:23 AM
  #167  
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Default Highstart is too much work but you cut your own grass?

Now does that make you hypocrites or just pharisees? You also have a health club memberships? Funny how your exercise has to please others and look a certain way...

You also have to have a motor on your rc gliders.....to look right in the sight of men...Pharisee!
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:52 PM
  #168  
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Epowerreg,

What are you talking about?

Did you post that in this thread by mistake?
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:18 PM
  #169  
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Let me state that I also have an EBot and it is one of my favorite gliders. I'm disabled and can't lay out a high start or winch. All my gliders are e powered and allow me to enjoy the sport. It's the only way I fly.

Just an update, I put my EBot in the hospital today. I thought I had the battery set right but she was tailheavy. Between that and a sudden gust she was a handful and I couldn't keep her from going in hard. Cracked the center wing section, cracked the fuse, broke the carbon fibre rods in the stab. bent the lipo 4s 2200. Motor seems fine, prop didn't break. Will need some therapy and recuperation time. It was the first time I flew the bot this year and must have forgot how far in nose to place the battery. I know should have done a hand toss. Been having a run of bad luck. My Skimmer went in last week on approach and my Vista had the motor pull out when I punched it with a new Nano tech in it, went about 2-300 yards downfield while the plane gently looped to the ground. Looks like I have to revisit my basics. 60's were rough on the braincells I guess.

Last edited by bluzjamer; 08-12-2013 at 08:25 AM. Reason: update
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:51 PM
  #170  
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Just wanted to ask....does anyone have an extra ARF Bot Wing Center section they have no use for? Will pay for it.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:38 PM
  #171  
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Not likely to find a "spare" one but they have them at Towers http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXYXK0&P=7
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:26 PM
  #172  
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Thanks Supercub,
I know about Tower, might just order a whole kit. I posted this just in case some one had a center left over from a crash and didn't know what to do with it.
I'm still tossing up weather to repair it or not.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:51 PM
  #173  
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I have an ARF waiting to be built - winter project and I really want to put electric in the nose but I suck at building. Thinking of getting a second fuselage for back up. I still don't get the rounding and how it is done. Also no sure where to make the first cut...the only cut...I can sew your finger back on perfectly but modeling and I do not agree
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:10 AM
  #174  
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I'm in the same boat, crashed my E Bot that a friend sold me and now have to build the arf I have to replace it. I don't like building either. I did it when I was younger and had patience. Don't like chopping a perfectly good glass fuse either. My friend used masking tape and a dremel. I'd like to use my chopsaw. Some use a hacksaw or hobby saw. You want a little right and down on the cut. Just be aware of the steel bb's glued in the nose if you are cutting through them.
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:58 AM
  #175  
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I'm not going to worry about right and down on the cut. Will put it on the wall if at all. Torque is over rated so little motor time.
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