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Aileron Trainer - Really?

Old 01-29-2020, 01:00 PM
  #26  
Jools
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Well there are all sorts of 'straw men' being demolished here! Anyway...
As I stated, rudder movement causes a yaw, if dihederal is present, the aircraft will bank, whereupon up elevator is initiated to cause the aircraft to change direction (turn).
And it goes without saying that if the aircraft is banked elevator MUST be used, as lift will be reduced and the nose will drop. But the subject really is not about all that. The bank doesn't "create the turn" The bank creates the condition where the elevator can then be used to make the turn. It's pretty simple stuff really.
The original question was about whether ailerons were better for a trainer or not. I'm just emphasising that, all else being equal, of course a trainer should have ailerons!
I too have flown 1:1 and am quite aware of co-ordinating aileron with rudder
But really we're getting way off-topic now!
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:15 PM
  #27  
solentlife
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I think the biggest difference for a complete newcomer to a trainer is whether the model will self right.

They do not have the ability to correct the bank or aspect of the craft once the turn or manoeuvre is completed ... they either don't or they over-correct in panic.

Dihedral has two aspects .. one to create bank from the action of rudder yawing the model and second putting the model back as self righted when rudder is released.

Some say aileron trainers lose this ability .. not if like the Starlight - they are built as 3ch but add 4ch to the mix. Best of both worlds then.

As to the mechanics of how yaw / banking / correction occurs ? Is it really that important to the newcomer who's barely able to speak while trying to fly ??
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:32 PM
  #28  
Jools
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"Some say aileron trainers lose this ability" That's under the assumption that the aileron model does not have dihederal ! (Who said that?) Best of both worlds for a learner is ailerons AND dihederal (for a measure of self-correction).
And (Another 'straw man'), who's suggesting we discuss the finer points of aerodynamics with the student whilst he's flying? Certainly not me. But I tell you what, if the learner understands how and why all this stuff works, in the air, they're MUCH better equipped to fly.
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Old 01-29-2020, 02:21 PM
  #29  
quorneng
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Jools
Wow!
I will let the content of your reply speak for itself.
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Old 11-23-2020, 06:38 AM
  #30  
Beaver Pilot
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I'm a newbie to RC flying . In my early life I was lucky enough to have about 6-7 hours of full size flight training. I started in A Piper Tri Pacer. It had all the control surfaces normal planes have. I never learned to turn only with a rudder because that maneuver usually put the plane in a skid and turned very slowly. A plane is balanced when a turn is made with the correct amount of rudder, ailerons and elevator control. I have an Rc instructor instructor who wants me to turn only with the rudder then after several months he might let me use the ailerons. What gives? I don't understand .
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Old 11-23-2020, 07:13 AM
  #31  
Jools
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Originally Posted by Beaver Pilot View Post
I'm a newbie to RC flying . In my early life I was lucky enough to have about 6-7 hours of full size flight training. I started in A Piper Tri Pacer. It had all the control surfaces normal planes have. I never learned to turn only with a rudder because that maneuver usually put the plane in a skid and turned very slowly. A plane is balanced when a turn is made with the correct amount of rudder, ailerons and elevator control. I have an Rc instructor instructor who wants me to turn only with the rudder then after several months he might let me use the ailerons. What gives? I don't understand .
Without disrespecting your instructor, I would beg to differ! If you have a 2-channel model with lots of dihederal, he might be right BUT...
With a 3-4 channel aircraft, the PRIMARY directional control is the aileron, (not the rudder)- the elevator is used in conjunction with aileron to keep the nose up/level in the turn.
The ONLY situation where rudder is your primary directional control, is when you have lots of dihederal in the wings, because the dihederal causes the wings to bank when the rudder is used.
Does your aircraft have lots of dihederal? If it doesn't, you MUST use ailerons to bank the wings to initiate a turn. If there's not much dihederal then, you'll get a sort of 'skidding turn' -not good.
I've been RC flying (and designing aircraft) for over 40 years, and flying (albeit in the RH seat) full-size for some years. Some RC instructors have a 'brain-set' as though beginners always start with 2 channel rudder-elevator models. But it's not always the case is it?
As a 1:1 pilot you'll know that to initiate a turn, you put in aileron to bank the wings, then you add up-elevator to bring her around. Often you'll use a touch of rudder as well (which can make the turn 'sweet' - (called a co-ordinated turn 'round here). But if you hold in rudder / too much rudder as you bank, the rudder takes on an elevator function, pushing the nose down. Not desirable!

The only case where your instructor is correct is if you have a model with no aileron, just rudder/elevator and plenty of dihederal.
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Old 11-23-2020, 11:01 AM
  #32  
quorneng
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Beaver Pilot
I can only agree with Jools.
In the early days of RC planes originated from free flight designs where high degree of natural stability is vital. In these circumstances and with only limited control it was normal to simply use the rudder to upset the direction of flight using the rudder and then let the plane sort things out by itself. It made learning directional control simple..
With ailerons you actually have to reduce the planes natural stability to make them both effective and to limit any unwanted secondary effects. This is how most full size aircraft are set up. The downside is that the reduction in the planes natural stability means it will not sort itself out in all circumstances so there is a bit more responsibility on the pilot to not get into those situations in the first place. This makes learning how to use the basic controls a bit more involved for a new pilot particularly when there are lots of other things going on at the same time.
Flying a plane from the ground is a bit different in that you have to convert solely what you see into control inputs without the other sensory inputs you get when sitting in the cockpit, nevertheless the controls do all work in the same way.
As Jools says ailerons, if available, are a primary control so should be part of the learning process. Bear in mind that many RC planes that simply do not have a rudder yet fly perfectly well.
I can only suggest you tell your instructor that you have had some flight training, 6-7 hours would be quite a lot in RC terms, and hopefully he should then alter how he approaches your RC flight training.
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