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Bank and Yank flyers... I know your out there

Old 01-09-2011, 01:43 PM
  #1  
SmoothCruizer
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Smile Bank and Yank flyers... I know your out there

OK let me start and everyone else can give their thoughts on this subject as this seems to becoming a normal flying habit. 4ch planes BTW

It's becoming more clear that more and more products new planes are getting easier to fly but do you think it's taking the character and art of the RUDDER out of the equation?

1. Are you scared of the rudder? Lately I have found the rudder makes my planes more interesting in Inverted flight. Yes it is very sensitive like this but wow it can do so much to hold a special move.

2. You see your friends or pals taking off or landing WITHOUT rudder? I'm always thinking of the next time I can fly landing with rudder... It's a plane and you don't need to slam the rudder , It coordinates and helps makes your landing look oh so nice!

3. The Bank and Yank! WOW you can fly like this guys and girls, Computer games do this.... Real life the rudder is on that plane not for looks or it looks kool. Put your plane up there this new year and blend that left thumb with your right thumb to the left and come back to this thread and speak your mind, I would love to hear your stories

Last edited by SmoothCruizer; 01-09-2011 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 01-09-2011, 02:04 PM
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NJSwede
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Ok. So you think we're doing it wrong. How SHOULD we do it? Any pointers?

I'm still on a three channel, but I practice four channel a lot in the sim for the day (very soon I hope) that I'll be upgrading.

What are the secrets?

I get that the rudder is very useful for final adjustments of your approach and landing. That's how the big birds with people in them do it.

I also get that rudder is a must for stability when you do things like knife edges.

But then what? Blending rudder and ailerons for regular turns doesn't make sense to me. All it does for me is to make the nose drop. What's the secret?
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Old 01-09-2011, 02:29 PM
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Rudder is worthless if you have ailerons! Just glue it solid
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Old 01-09-2011, 02:34 PM
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everybody flys differently, if the plane goes up, flys, and comes down in once pice then they are do'n it right as far as i'm concerned.

Relax, they are just toys. Big, dangerous, complex, TOYS.
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Old 01-09-2011, 02:55 PM
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SmoothCruizer
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No I did not say not using rudder is wrong.... this is a Opinion thread.... I would like opinions or reasons why you don't wish to use.... Doesn't mean one guy is better than the other guy thread.
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:02 PM
  #6  
SmoothCruizer
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Originally Posted by NJSwede View Post
Ok. So you think we're doing it wrong. How SHOULD we do it? Any pointers?

I'm still on a three channel, but I practice four channel a lot in the sim for the day (very soon I hope) that I'll be upgrading.

What are the secrets?

I get that the rudder is very useful for final adjustments of your approach and landing. That's how the big birds with people in them do it.

I also get that rudder is a must for stability when you do things like knife edges.

But then what? Blending rudder and ailerons for regular turns doesn't make sense to me. All it does for me is to make the nose drop. What's the secret?
Thats kool, I like that your interested in coordinated turns.... I can tell you that a plane with a lot of dihiedral (can't spell) will make the turns do as described above.... I usually bank then add rudder either direction to battle a wind direction. if the wind pushes you from one side, I dip my wing as adjust rudder to keeps things straight.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:16 PM
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Sabrehawk
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Thw wind does not push or shove an airplane, except when it's on the ground. Once an airplane leaves the confines of the ground and is "in" the air, it simply flows/flies with it. The only effect the wind has on an airplane once it's airborne is that the plane "drifts" in the direction the air is flowing.
If you were in the plane you could not tell the air is moving at all, nor what direction it's going in. Of course if close enough to the ground one can see this by the way you are moving in relation to it but thats it.

So, no rudder or any other control movements are needed to compensate for wind. A plane simply flies both through and with the moving air mass it flies within.

Just throwing in this little correction in thinking. As for the subject of rudder use, well it's just as important a part of controling an airplane as any other but not in the way most might think.
But would require more typing than I'd care to do to explain. So I suggest studying up on this and there's plenty out there for that.
Best place to start though is a book called "Stick and Rudder", just look it up.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:19 PM
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TDisaster
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Originally Posted by Gohmer View Post
Rudder is worthless if you have ailerons! Just glue it solid
Yeah, if you're just flying in circles.

Try any type of aerobatics and you'll want that rudder back pretty quickly.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:55 PM
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First, to rudder or not to rudder really depends on the plane. For instance, with my Possum Holler Biplane, a person will not turn the plane at all with out the rudder......ailerons are just for rolling on this plane. BUT on my Mr Saturday Night Special, a rudder is completly useless. 30 degrees of insanely sized rudder barely causes any reaction to the plane in any orientation.....I dont fully understand why, but the rudder never did anything.

That being said, I find a rudder to be very valuable for any taildragger, in fact Ive never used a steerable tail wheel, I steer with the rudder.

A rudder's (and total aircraft) design will ultimately decide how useful the rudder will be on that perticular airplane.

I really think silly discussions and arguments over fine points of the law dont do anything to advance modeling. I like to invent, build, fly, and sometimes even crash.....not argue.


Possum
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:06 PM
  #10  
FlyWheel
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Default "Bank And Yank"?

Just what does that mean, anyways?
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:04 AM
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you are simply finding outt hose who fly toys and those who try to have learned to fly scale.

it like watching a cub doing a high speed inverted pass....like some one with out eyebrows....you know somethings wrong
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:16 AM
  #12  
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Bank the plane hard, then yank back on the stick.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:33 AM
  #13  
SmoothCruizer
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Originally Posted by tampaflyer View Post
you are simply finding outt hose who fly toys and those who try to have learned to fly scale.

it like watching a cub doing a high speed inverted pass....like some one with out eyebrows....you know somethings wrong
lol I do a lot of inverted passes not really fast but with my funcub it's so fun rocking the wing back and forth upside down! then lock in a semi inverted knife edge pass with the winds help!
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:37 AM
  #14  
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the use of the rudder for me on lining up landing in cross wind approaches and turning while on the ground are about the only times i use it...but good pilots will tell me to coordinate both thumbs while flying so rudder use will become second nature in more advanced flying.

i still haven't done this as the elv/aileron combination still flys most any aerobatics i do to get the blood flowing.

saberhawk,i don't fully get the logic of wind and flight being unnoticable till closer to the ground. when flying high in a strong cross wind you will see an effect called crabingor as you say drifting....so wether landing or high altitude you feel and see air effects and i guess a pilot would say aircraft controls and pilot skills are noticable in windy conditions.

quote ""Thw wind does not push or shove an airplane, except when it's on the ground. Once an airplane leaves the confines of the ground and is "in" the air, it simply flows/flies with it. The only effect the wind has on an airplane once it's airborne is that the plane drifts...................

So, no rudder or any other control movements are needed to compensate for wind. A plane simply flies both through and with the moving air mass it flies within "




when hang gliding into a MPH to 20mph headwind and the landing field is 1 1/4 miles away at 2000ft agl you may find forward penetration to much ,but fly at an angle to the field as a cross wind and tilt so the glider flys both forward and sideways toward the lz[crabbing] and you'll say wind and controls are always at work together and noticeable to the pilot.

living near tetaboro,and Newark airport,on top of all those videos of plane coming in for landing crabbing the runway till only feet above the runway would prove all controls come into play for a picture perfect landing not to mention a skilled pilot[of which I'm not]

but I'm not sure what your point is and am interested in this subject of using the rudder more so any further insight to the subject will be read with serious intent on learning to be a better RC pilot...i got a lot to learn from you all hear at wattflyer and really enjoy questions and threads on these subjects.

bank and yank....is it aileron/elevator control....bank and pull up for that snap turn
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:56 AM
  #15  
CHELLIE
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I Cant Fly with out using my Rudder How am i going to do Knife Edges, and Stall turns with out a Rudder and if the ailerons are not enough when its windy, you need to use Rudder to help out, Bi Planes Really Need Rudder Control and Real Pilots use RUDDER LOL
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:19 AM
  #16  
SHADY
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
I Cant Fly with out using my Rudder How am i going to do Knife Edges, and Stall turns with out a Rudder and if the ailerons are not enough when its windy, you need to use Rudder to help out, Bi Planes Really Need Rudder Control and Real Pilots use RUDDER LOL

YEA!!!! What she said!!!!
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:30 AM
  #17  
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Well, I only really use rudder for 3D and takeoffs, but sometimes I use it to land. I am working on programing rudder and aileron into a mix on my T-28 so I don't have to always counteract rudder movement.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:54 AM
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CHELLIE
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Originally Posted by skyman View Post
Well, I only really use rudder for 3D and takeoffs, but sometimes I use it to land. I am working on programing rudder and aileron into a mix on my T-28 so I don't have to always counteract rudder movement.
Sounds like your using Rudder to Me LOL, Take care and Have Fun, Chellie
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:27 AM
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I've flown quite a few aircraft (including helicopters) with and without rudder. What I've found, is that rudder is not NECESSARY if you have ailerons.

There are a handful of "tricks" you can do with rudder -- but you can still fly the airplane had have LOTS of fun without a rudder.

Tell me why my Stryker (98 mph) and FunJet (135 mph) are so much fun, when neither of them have a rudder.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:55 AM
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Rudder is necassary for keeping straight on take off, some aeobatics etc. I dont see that that is up for debate on that to be honest.

For me the contentious point is use of co-ordinated aileron and rudder to turn the plane. There is a problem with this. On a full size plane to pilot has instruments that tell him if his turn is co-ordinated. He will have a 'turn co-ordinator'. He may also have a 'yaw string' which is a simple piece of chord or wool taped to the canopy. The pilot uses these aids to ballance rudder and aileron in order to keep the turn co-ordinated.. That is he avoids the plane slipping or skidding sideways through the turn.

Now that's great for a full size plane but there is a major problem trying to do co-ordinated turns with a model... You have no instruments! In trying to co-ordinate a turn by using rudder with ailerons you could well make things worse. To keep a real plane co-ordinated in a turn the amount of rudder and aileron needed varies during the turn and depends on the type of plane and how tight the turn is; sometimes the aileron and rudder might have to be in opposite directions to keep the turn co-ordinated.
How then without any yaw indication could you claim that you are making proper co-ordinated turns with any RC model?.. it's impossible to know. You can perhaps use rudder to make a turn 'look yaw free' form the ground but to be honest I've rarely if ever flew a plane where visually there was obvious yaw in normal turns (except for rudder only planes).

So for those who think they are doing 'proper' co-ordinated turns using aileron and rudder together... answer me this:... how do you know
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:30 AM
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CHELLIE
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Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post
I've flown quite a few aircraft (including helicopters) with and without rudder. What I've found, is that rudder is not NECESSARY if you have ailerons.

There are a handful of "tricks" you can do with rudder -- but you can still fly the airplane had have LOTS of fun without a rudder.

Tell me why my Stryker (98 mph) and FunJet (135 mph) are so much fun, when neither of them have a rudder.
Because they are just ment to go fast and thats about it LOL, They dont 3D very well LOL
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Rudder is necassary for keeping straight on take off, some aeobatics etc. I dont see that that is up for debate on that to be honest.

For me the contentious point is use of co-ordinated aileron and rudder to turn the plane. There is a problem with this. On a full size plane to pilot has instruments that tell him if his turn is co-ordinated. He will have a 'turn co-ordinator'. He may also have a 'yaw string' which is a simple piece of chord or wool taped to the canopy. The pilot uses these aids to ballance rudder and aileron in order to keep the turn co-ordinated.. That is he avoids the plane slipping or skidding sideways through the turn.

Now that's great for a full size plane but there is a major problem trying to do co-ordinated turns with a model... You have no instruments! In trying to co-ordinate a turn by using rudder with ailerons you could well make things worse. To keep a real plane co-ordinated in a turn the amount of rudder and aileron needed varies during the turn and depends on the type of plane and how tight the turn is; sometimes the aileron and rudder might have to be in opposite directions to keep the turn co-ordinated.
How then without any yaw indication could you claim that you are making proper co-ordinated turns with any RC model?.. it's impossible to know. You can perhaps use rudder to make a turn 'look yaw free' form the ground but to be honest I've rarely if ever flew a plane where visually there was obvious yaw in normal turns (except for rudder only planes).

So for those who think they are doing 'proper' co-ordinated turns using aileron and rudder together... answer me this:... how do you know
I think that is what I need, 'yaw string'. Easier than using a rudder.
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:55 PM
  #23  
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I think that the reason some think rudder may not be necessary is because most models are designed so that the roll control (ailerons) is designed to also input a great amount of yaw control (dihedral does that) so you are getting a fair amount of yaw control without the actual rudder input. If you get a design that minimizes yaw and roll coupling, you will soon realize that that rudder is very necessary in many instances. Also, the only reason that you can get by without ailerons (three channel planes) is that a great deal of roll coupling is built into the planes design (think dihedral). You need all three axis control for good flight, pitch, yaw and roll. Loose any one and you no longer have controlled flight; how you get them is done in many different ways.
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:57 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Sabrehawk View Post
Thw wind does not push or shove an airplane, except when it's on the ground. Once an airplane leaves the confines of the ground and is "in" the air, it simply flows/flies with it.
But an exception to this would be gusts of wind, correct? Wind does not act exactly like water, where there is only a constant flow. It can be blowing one moment and the next not. Added to that frequent "gusts" and the plane does indeed get pushed around, correct?
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:03 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
Sounds like your using Rudder to Me LOL, Take care and Have Fun, Chellie

No Chellie, he only uses it for takeoff, landing and that in between stuff. My instructor always said "You paid for it so you might as well use it. After hearing that a lot I always use rudder now.

Tom
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