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Flying the Super Cub

Old 08-21-2008, 01:22 AM
  #101  
Hostile
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Originally Posted by Angler-Hi View Post
How are you committed on a hand launch?
Umm, Head level verses the ground.

Originally Posted by Angler-Hi View Post
The plane would be at head level and still be able to glide as opposed to shooting straight up off the runway and stalling (usually by inputting too much elevator to get her up on the initial take off). Alot of beginners make that mistake. If she shoots up like that she will more than likely stall and crash for sure. Also with most beginners they wouldn't have the muscle memory to throttle down when she's looking like she's about to eat the ground, causing an even harder crash.

With hand launching, a beginner doesn't have to worry about running out of runway before they freak out and think they have to give full up elevator to keep her from crashing on the ground. With the SC, she likes to make that hard left at the last minute...she doesn't have that much of problem doing that when hand launching.
We will just have to disagree here.

Originally Posted by Angler-Hi View Post
Trimming the plane has nothing to do with how you launch it either. It still has to be in the air to be trimmed.
Don't know what your going on about here, but when I said trimming the plane. You trim the plane to taxi straight, ether mechanically, or electrically. Let the plane fly off the runway. Wrestle it straight in the air, then adjust the trim, land. Now you can throw it with confidence that it's not going to snap roll because it's out of trim.
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:51 AM
  #102  
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Extremely unlikely that Supercub RTF with stock battery is out of balance. MUCH more likely that new pilot is pulling back too hard on stick to get airborn or has dialed in some extra up elevator for "good measure" causing it to stall and roll.

SC can easily be hand launched without power and with a strong throw will glide 40-50'

I find hand launching without power helps people understand how hard they should throw when they launch and not expect the plane to fly out and up from their hand.



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Old 08-21-2008, 02:03 AM
  #103  
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I'll agree with Hostile on the ROG vs hand launch thing.

And yes you are committed to flying the plane once it leaves your hand, and if it was a bad throw you gotta live with it, and a beginner is twice as likely to haul back on the elevator and stall it and there's no room for recovery. Instant crash, and right on the nose too.
Plus there are many ways to launch it wrong, and only one way to do it right. And if he's never done a hand launch, he's very likely to do it wrong.
There's as much an art to throwing a plane into the air properly as there is to flying it. And as Hostile pointed out, it's starting out at an altitude high enough to do damage if the launch goes south.
And the bigger and heavier the plane is the more difficult a hand launch becomes.

But a ground take off can be aborted any time if it looks like things are going bad, even if it breaks ground you can just chop the throttle and settle it back down.
You can also practice the takeoff run, many times over if you wish and you dont have to let it lift off till you feel ready, and it's running straight and true and looks right. Then all you have to do is continue the run and allow it to lift off, and darn few airplanes need any elevator input to lift off. Especially any trainer type plane. So leave that elevator alone, and let the plane do what it already wants to do, and knows how to do better than we do, we just need to let it do so, and not fight it.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:13 AM
  #104  
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Hey Ray,
Providing you're throwing it straight, the battey's fully charged, and the speed controller's working properly, you might also check the tail assembly mounting. Make sure the rear part of the horizontal stabilizer is fully seated on the fuselage. If not, it could act the same as applying up elevator (negative horizontal stabilizer incidence).

It might also help us if you're able to post some pics of the cub from the side and looking down on the top (to make sure everything looks aligned properly).

~ DK
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:19 AM
  #105  
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In defense of the hand launch contingent (and because I love a good debate )....

The Super Cub is notoriously squirrely on the ground. IF you know how to do it properly, and IF it isn't badly out of balance (an RTF trainer shouldn't be), the SC is a very easy plane to hand launch, even if out of trim. Remember, I am talking about the Super Cub here, not just any plane. IMO, it is easier to hand launch an out-of-trim Super Cub than it is to make an ROG take off with a properly trimmed Super Cub.

Also, if the reason it is crashing is due to over-control by the pilot, then it will crash just as easily and just as hard if it takes off from the ground under it's own power.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:19 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by cbatters View Post
Extremely unlikely that Supercub RTF with stock battery is out of balance. MUCH more likely that new pilot is pulling back too hard on stick to get airborn or has dialed in some extra up elevator for "good measure" causing it to stall and roll.
Clint
This is interesting cause I was talking to the owner of the hobby store, and he said you should have the elevator up slightly(1/8 inch)trimmed in so you can fly at half speed and the plane stays level. Whats your opinion?
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:28 AM
  #107  
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Yeah, I gotta admit, my PZ J3 Cub has a nasty ground looping tendency unless ya hold your mouth just right. Which was something I was deathly afraid of when I first got my Christen Eagle given it's very short tail momment. But amazingly it does waaaay better, and I've never ground looped it.

Yep, Doug's right about over controlling it, it's gonna be a mess no matter how ya take off.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:30 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by jksecunda View Post
This is interesting cause I was talking to the owner of the hobby store, and he said you should have the elevator up slightly(1/8 inch)trimmed in so you can fly at half speed and the plane stays level. Whats your opinion?
My opinion: hobby shop employees sometimes give really bad advice.

In this case, the advice is only half bad. You should trim your plane to fly straight and level at about 2/3's throttle (cruising speed - be it 1/2 or 2/3's or 3/4's), but there is no way of knowing what that is before you fly. It could just as easily be 1/8" down as 1/8" up. More likely than not, it is closer to dead even with the horizontal stabilizer. That being said, if your plane is going to be out of trim on a maiden, I would rather it tend to rise a little than dive. Less urgency that way
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:46 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Fly Time View Post
My opinion: hobby shop employees sometimes give really bad advice.

In this case, the advice is only half bad. You should trim your plane to fly straight and level at about 2/3's throttle (cruising speed - be it 1/2 or 2/3's or 3/4's), but there is no way of knowing what that is before you fly. It could just as easily be 1/8" down as 1/8" up. More likely than not, it is closer to dead even with the horizontal stabilizer. That being said, if your plane is going to be out of trim on a maiden, I would rather it tend to rise a little than dive. Less urgency that way
Better to ere on trimmed slightly down than slightly up. If it is trimmed slightly down the plane will develop good airspeed and you get a\n opportunity to pull back a little before it lands on the ground 15 feet from where you launched at an angle slightly steeper than the desired landing angle.

If, however, it is trimmed with too much up elevator, it pops up 15', stalls immediately, rolls left and plows straight into the ground.

So you are left asking yourself do I trim it neutral to start or risk trimming it with too much up elevator.

IMHO - One of the best things you could do with a SC or any light wing loading plane is learn to launch with power off and build confidence about launching before venturing into powered flight. Great opportunity to trim the plane on short 40-50' flights before graduating to powered flight at 100'.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:59 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Hostile View Post
Umm, Head level verses the ground.



We will just have to disagree here.



Don't know what your going on about here, but when I said trimming the plane. You trim the plane to taxi straight, ether mechanically, or electrically. Let the plane fly off the runway. Wrestle it straight in the air, then adjust the trim, land. Now you can throw it with confidence that it's not going to snap roll because it's out of trim.
This is getting fun. Snap roll? We are talking about the SC right? I've seen pilots (like myself) rip off landing gear due to running out of runway and making a last minute decision when starting out. I've also seen pilots over correct when the plane banks unexpectedly on takeoff, causing either a wing tip to scrape the ground or end up on it's back...if it's lucky enough to not land on it's nose bending the prop shaft and snapping the prop.
Also, even with the SC manually trimmed and using rudder on take off, she will still steer to the left with more throttle input.

I like that, "wrestle" it in the air as opposed to tossing her. Not sure if I agree there. BTW, I'm enjoying this friend. It's been a while since I've gotten into a good debate from both sides. Good winds my friend.

Mike
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:01 AM
  #111  
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I gotta agree with ya Flytime....100%
I find it WAY easier to hand launch my Super Cubs then ROG....WAY.
Zoo ~~~^..^~~~
Originally Posted by Fly Time View Post
In defense of the hand launch contingent (and because I love a good debate )....

The Super Cub is notoriously squirrely on the ground. IF you know how to do it properly, and IF it isn't badly out of balance (an RTF trainer shouldn't be), the SC is a very easy plane to hand launch, even if out of trim. Remember, I am talking about the Super Cub here, not just any plane. IMO, it is easier to hand launch an out-of-trim Super Cub than it is to make an ROG take off with a properly trimmed Super Cub.

Also, if the reason it is crashing is due to over-control by the pilot, then it will crash just as easily and just as hard if it takes off from the ground under it's own power.
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:02 AM
  #112  
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" And if he's never done a hand launch, he's very likely to do it wrong."

Hey Sabrehawk, that's what WE'RE here for.
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:07 AM
  #113  
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I don't have a runway so I never runway launch. All of my planes are hand launched.
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:23 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by cbatters View Post
IMHO - One of the best things you could do with a SC or any light wing loading plane is learn to launch with power off and build confidence about launching before venturing into powered flight. Great opportunity to trim the plane on short 40-50' flights before graduating to powered flight at 100'.
How do you launch with the power off. Wont it plow into the ground?
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:24 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by cbatters View Post
When learning to fly model airplances, the tendancy to "go for it", even though you know the conditions are not good, is common and usually followed by a trip to the local hobby shop to buy parts or a new plane.

Come up with a minimum set of criteria of field size and wind conditions and stick to it. No shame in going to a field, NOT FLYING and coming back the next day.


Clint
I also encountered such a situation. This is a very good suggestion
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:18 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by jksecunda View Post
How do you launch with the power off. Wont it plow into the ground?

No, it will glide.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:30 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Angler-Hi View Post
" And if he's never done a hand launch, he's very likely to do it wrong."

Hey Sabrehawk, that's what WE'RE here for.
Ahhh, yeppers thats right bro!

And since ya said that, here's what I can say of them.

Its a very fluid, and smooth throw that is needed and it has to be thrown straight out away from you and never upward. In fact a good thing is to practice it with those little balsa hand toss gliders made by guillows.
Those were the first planes I ever had experience with as a kid, and so early on long, long before I ever had my first R/C plane I developed a nice fluid throw, and actually found that a slight downward angle was better cause it allowed fast airspeed gain right off the bat. Though straight out is what I'd advise with the bigger stuff, but if your gonna be off angle better to be downward than upward.
And wings level is paramount also, and it has to be with plenty of force too. There is as I have seen a tendency for the beginner to not throw hard enough. So be bold and give it a real good shove, dont be afraid of throwing too hard, but do be afraid of throwing too lightly.

My first R/C plane was a Cox Sportavia motorglider, and so all my take offs were hand launched, and later on after a few Sig kits like the J3 Cub, and the Citabria I built a Goldberg Sophisticated Lady w/power pod, and it too had to be hand launched and belly landed so I've have had a lot of experience at hand launching and got pretty good at it.
But like I said, all those little balsa gliders I threw around as a kid gave me an advantage of having developed a fluid throwing motion. And to me it's that fluidity of motion that is key to successfully hand launching.

But given a choice however, I'll take off from the ground cause I feel it's a more controllable, and abortable thing.
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Old 08-21-2008, 04:58 AM
  #118  
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I found the s-c easy as cake to rog .....
Still do when "I'm in the mood for cub"
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:17 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Angler-Hi View Post
This is getting fun. Snap roll? We are talking about the SC right? I've seen pilots (like myself) rip off landing gear due to running out of runway and making a last minute decision when starting out. I've also seen pilots over correct when the plane banks unexpectedly on takeoff, causing either a wing tip to scrape the ground or end up on it's back...if it's lucky enough to not land on it's nose bending the prop shaft and snapping the prop.
Also, even with the SC manually trimmed and using rudder on take off, she will still steer to the left with more throttle input.
I don't really know what you are ranting about? Are we giving advice to a seasoned flier, or a beginner? Either way, I'd rather landing gear ripped out than terminal velocity into the ground, nose first.

Originally Posted by Angler-Hi View Post
I like that, "wrestle" it in the air as opposed to tossing her. Not sure if I agree there. BTW, I'm enjoying this friend. It's been a while since I've gotten into a good debate from both sides. Good winds my friend.

Mike
Haha I'm glad ya liked it!

Sabrehawk put it very elegantly the way I see it here. There is no reason to go further. I'm glad you guys think it's a debate, but my sole intention was to help ray54 with his problem.
If he is indeed a beginner, he might need someone to show him how. Almost all of you will admit that you don't just go out, and fly. Some may, but it's not sound advice to give a beginner. Everyone talking of just keep throwing the thing, even after the obvious trouble stated earlier.Yeah lets throw it! It's like telling him the quickest way to the LHS.
Sounds to me to be stalling?? Having no one there to fly with, throw, teach, ect. He needs one on one help. I'm sure that you can hand launch just about anything, including the SC, if you know what your doing, if not....??
I'm not sure were all of this is going? Hope there is some sound advice in there somewhere?

Sorry ray54, I tried. Later! GL!
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:28 AM
  #120  
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haha..........well time for a few laughs here. So lets take a look at how NOT to fly a Cub. And proof positive that the SC is a tough cookie, and even if flown incorrectly can survive. Yes even those of us watching this survived, but not by much.
And well, even so I couldnt catch all that happened as I was hiding for most of the worst of it, and eventually gave up videotaping this and got back under my Cherokee's hatch with my buddy who stayed there from the get-go.
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:35 AM
  #121  
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We've been giving him sound advice friend. Please don't leave this thread with any kind of misunderstanding. We found a way to give advice to a new pilot and many opinions were given by experienced pilots, even though not all the same.

No one was ranting, but rather putting our difference of opinions out there in an amusing manner. That's what makes this forum so great...many experienced pilots can give their advice and the one in which we give it can take what he/she wants from it. It's ALL good advice, it's just from different views. There's no real statistic saying that one way will work better for him than the other...NONE. If I have aggravated you, then I apologize. I thought we were on the same page (having a little bit of fun, while helping our new pilots). Good winds Hostile.

Mike
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Old 08-21-2008, 06:17 AM
  #122  
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ok guys don't argue here is what happen. I hand Launch at full throttle in to the wind it banks to the left looses lift and crashes this is all with out input from me. The CG looks ok the tail drops a little but from what I have seen in articles this is ok. I may not be hand launhing it right I am new.But when I taxi it in the road it also go's to the left so you may be on to something there. And I never get 40 or 50 ft from a hand launch with out power more like 10 ft

Ray
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Old 08-21-2008, 06:47 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by ray54 View Post
ok guys don't argue here is what happen. I hand Launch at full throttle in to the wind it banks to the left looses lift and crashes this is all with out input from me. The CG looks ok the tail drops a little but from what I have seen in articles this is ok. I may not be hand launhing it right I am new.But when I taxi it in the road it also go's to the left so you may be on to something there. And I never get 40 or 50 ft from a hand launch with out power more like 10 ft

Ray
Left turn with the throttle on is normal. That is due to torque and prop effect on the airframe. Once the airplane picks up some speed, it should fly more or less straight. Some prefer to hand launch with the plane banked slightly to the right to counter this.

When you hand launch, your throw should be firm and level or just slightly up. The wings should be level or banked slightly right as mentioned. The throttle should be wide open. You should feel the plane wanting to pull out of your hand before you toss it.

After it leaves your hand, immediately get on the stick and be prepared to adjust the plane's trajectory. Again, it should be climbing away from you at a modest angle - not more than 30 degrees for the Super Cub. 15 degrees is ideal. If it pitches up steeper than 30 it will stall, so push the nose down and allow it to climb gradually. Keep the plane straight or in a gentle turn, but do not allow it to bank steeply until you have plenty of altitude. Once it is up well over the nearest tree and at least 2 mistakes high, then adjust the trims so it flies straight and level at about 2/3 throttle.

Unless you have some sort of manufacturing defect or just put it together poorly, the SC should do this fairly easily. As I mentioned earlier, the key is to control it smoothly. Think of it as driving a car rather than playing a video game. Accelerate smoothly. Brake smoothly. Steer smoothly. Same goes for turning, climbing and descending in an airplane. Fly smoothly.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:26 AM
  #124  
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Default Fly cub Fly!

For a while there my SC was climbing and rolling to the right, then a "Stall Spin to a Full Stop" would result. It was pretty discouraging to say the least.

This was my first attempt at RC flying, and hand launching didnt seem to be the factor, I was comfortable with it. At full throttle the plane would leave my hand nicely, go out a few feet climb and roll violently as Airspeed increased. Oh no! I said the "A" word. (We wont go there again with the airspeed).

It took a fellow WattFlyer to notice my wing was warped, through a picture I posted in the Photo Gallery. Amazing! Sure enough, when I set my wing flat on the table the Trailing Edge of the Right wing was UP, and the T.E. of the LH wing was down. You could figure out the rest.

I unwarped the wing almost a month ago, and have not returned the SC to the sky since.

Cheech
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:28 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Fly Time View Post
After it leaves your hand, immediately get on the stick and be prepared to adjust the plane's trajectory.

This is a key point. You are flying the plane, it will not fly itself especially on takeoff.
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