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Hello fellow Electric flyers.

Old 01-07-2006, 12:39 AM
  #1  
chargmaster
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Thumbs up Hello fellow Electric flyers.

Have been flying electric for 15 years. Things have sure changed. Most of my electric models are antiquated by todays standards. Am going to try and change to all new Brushless equipment as time and money allowes. Wondering if New in box brushed Astro motors have much value these days? I know Astro still sells these brushed motors. Just wondering. Any how Hello to all.
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:45 AM
  #2  
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Welcome charge. There is a market out there for the Astros. Just not what you paid for them!!!
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:54 AM
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Hello chargmaster! Welcome to WattFlyer!

Originally Posted by chargmaster View Post
Have been flying electric for 15 years. Things have sure changed. Most of my electric models are antiquated by todays standards.
Yep! We know longer have to use l-o-n-g extention cords for flying electrics .
Originally Posted by chargmaster View Post
Am going to try and change to all new Brushless equipment as time and money allowes. Wondering if New in box brushed Astro motors have much value these days? I know Astro still sells these brushed motors. Just wondering. Any how Hello to all.
I would say the majority are stepping up to brushless motors mainly because they are for the most part 0 maintenance, but there are still quite a few that fly brushed still. Astro motors are still popular for the ones still using brushed motors. Upgrading your old models to Brushless and Lipos batteries would be a great way to put new life into your existing planes.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:38 AM
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Exclamation Love Brushed Motors and Li-POLYs

I love the combination of inexpensive Brushed "Modified" RC Buggy Motors and Li-POLYs!!!

Just visit...
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3335
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Old 01-07-2006, 03:25 AM
  #5  
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For the cost of Astro's, you can get better and maintenance free basically brushless. If you paid $80 for a brushed astro, its lucky if you can get 20 bux for it now. Depending on demand of course.
Many electric powered planes now are made for brushless and lipoly batteries. Older models may have trouble with CG if you use lipoly in them since lipo packs weigh much much less.
And guapo is right on with the buggy motors. Endo's and mag mayhems run good with 3S lipo packs. Remember to prop down a bit as the brushes will burn up faster on large props. Heck, may even try 2S packs on those.


Dave...
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:34 AM
  #6  
chargmaster
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Seems like Li-Poly's run much hotter with brushed motors even though the Amp draw is well within specification. What about this??? Need advice since I am just starting to use Li-Polys.
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:40 AM
  #7  
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Originally Posted by chargmaster View Post
Seems like Li-Poly's run much hotter with brushed motors even though the Amp draw is well within specification. What about this??? Need advice since I am just starting to use Li-Polys.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong as I only use brushless motors, but amps is amps. The battery doesn't know if its powering a Brushed or a Brushless motor. Shouldn't be any difference as long as they are both propped for the same amp draw.
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Old 01-07-2006, 05:04 AM
  #8  
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Amps are amps. Alot depends on the battery. Lets say your running a setup which pulls 18 amps according to your meter. And you are running a lipoly pack thats 1500 mah rated at 8C with a 15C burst rate. 8C would be equal to 12 amps. So, if you run this system, your pulling 18 amps at full throttle which is 6 amps over the 8C rating. This is gonna heat up that lipo pack. The burst rate which would be 22.5 amps haven't been met but, burst rates are meant for quick non sustained full throttle runs. Some lipo makers also fib up their C ratings.
Also remember that brushed motors are not as efficient as brushless motors. And, depending on how your motor is mounted, your motor can also heat up by not having enough air flow thru and around the motor.
Getting back to the "brushed motors will make lipoly packs hotter than brushless". The lipoly pack doesn't know or care what kind of motor is being run. All it knows is how much "juice" do I need to expel in order to deliver what is being asked.

Dave...
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Old 01-07-2006, 05:40 AM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by LuckyArmpit View Post
Amps are amps. Alot depends on the battery.

Also remember that brushed motors are not as efficient as brushless motors.

The lipoly pack doesn't know or care what kind of motor is being run. All it knows is how much "juice" do I need to expel in order to deliver what is being asked.

Dave...
Dave,

I do agree on your statement that a Li-POLY just puts out what the power system demands. The resultant "Under Load Voltage" is the determining factor of how robust a cell technology / type / size etc.. handles the demand.

However, I have had many Brushed setups in geared applications that are slightly higher in efficiency than brushless motors especially Outrunner direct drive applications. Recall that Brushless motors are Electronically Commutated motors and depending on the Pulse Width Modulation and Timing parameters plus the load (Propeller / size / pitch) determines efficiency.

With Brushed Motors the commutation is mechanical and thereby the parameter that most of the modified motors have is adjustable timing but, nothing more and the efficiency in geared form at some setups can come better efficiency throughout the throttle range.

I have a buddy that has a Himax HC2815-4000 in ducted fan unit that came with the Kamdax Mirage 2000 jet, for example. In order to maximize empeller RPM's as ducted fan units are only 30% efficient at best (as a propulsion method), he programmed the ESC with a higher rate "or" increased the Pulse Width Modulation (Motor's Duty Cycle). This effect allowed a significant increase in RPMs at the motor output shaft but, at the cost of all electronic components heating up at a faster rate as the FETs turn "On" more per given time (per second) resulting in heating up of the onboard components. This coupled with the specific timing, the heat created amongst internal windings caused by impurities of the megnetic properties of the magnets used can not be dissipated fast enough causes the material to change it's properties at higher and higher Voltages / current draw.

In those "Brushed" Modified RC Buggy motors that have adjustable timing, the increase in power is done at the motor and not at the brushed ESC. The only bad side effect is if your setup results in too much demand, the brush material heats up to the point that the material starts to deterioate at a faster rate and you will notice this rather quickly in the form of the motor weakening as the commutator gets full of crystal and dust deposits and the electronic path is no longer possible. Even the ESC would not make the normal sound at Flight battery -to- ESC connection as the ESC detects "no" motor as a result.

Therefore, there's still a great deal of advantages to Brushed motors and the maintanence is rather a silly side note to say that Brushless motor setups are better. I have flown my very fast Great Planes Super Sportster EP with the Kyosho Endoplasma 16-turn in geared setup for over 15 flights and both the commutator and brushes look new and no brush dust can be found anywhere inside that cowling.

Carlos
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Old 01-07-2006, 11:49 AM
  #10  
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Carlos, do they still make the mag mayhem and endoplasma motors? I remember there were some fliers who were using endos geared in electro streaks running these on 10 cells. However after about maybe 40 to 50 flights, they were changing the brushes out. I run a mag mahem setup with an olympus gearbox in a T-52 setup. Generally, run 7 and 8 cell SCP's. If you take in the fact that these buggy motors run about $20 new, its a nice price to performance factor for the cost as opposed to a brushless setup like say the jeti 30/3 motor which is around 100 beans.

Dave...
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:32 PM
  #11  
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As far as obtaining the famous Kyosho Modified Brushed Motors such as Endoplasma 16-turn, Magnetic Mayhem 22-Turn, Atomic Force 17-turn etc...the need visit a couple of local hobby stores that sells RC Car, Trucks as they usually carry as an upgrade these Kyosho Modified Brushed 550 size motors. The Endoplasma 16-turn list for $24.99 plus local tax.
If not, then, the need to ask the hobby store if they are a partner with the Kyosho of America. If not then, the hobby store would need to setup a partnership with Kyosho of America such that they can order these motors.
http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/
Here's the form...
http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/images/...pplication.pdf
"or"
Inquire with a hobby store that has already established the partnership and has a web site such as:
http://www.rocousa.com/kyosho.htm

Tower Hobbies still has alternatives in 550 size motor/gearbox combos such as ....
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXBRN3&P=7
Essentially, this is an EPIC motor under the Great Planes "Electrify" brand name. I really don't know how many turns but, can tell you that this power system flew in my Super Sportster EP with great results. It comes with two Pinion gear sets, one for 2.5:1 ratio (standard) and one optional 14 tooth pinion (3.0:1 ratio), however, I would order the 12-tooth pinion (3.8:1 ratio) in case someone decides to use 3-series Li-POLY battery setup such as 3S2P Li-POLY or the new Polly Quest "Twenty" (20C output capacity) Li-POLYs. Oh, yes, in this case I would use the APC "Sport" 9 X 8 propeller that comes with the S-600GD power system making sure that he measures the AMP draw before flying his model. I beleive the manual that comes with this power system indicates that the motors higher end is 30 AMPs.
They also sell a combo that comes with the Electrify 30 Amp ESC but,
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXBRN4&P=7
I would opt to go with a higher capacity Amp ESC like a 50 AMP, especially using the Battery Eliminator Circuit (BEC) enabled onboard the ESC.
Bottom line....one can purchase a modified motor that comes close to the large commutator and brushes (5X5) with perhaps 16 to 20 turns that the Endoplasma 16-turn motor is well known for....
Hope this helps for those that are looking for Kyosho Modified motors but, can not find them!
Carlos
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Old 01-07-2006, 12:45 PM
  #12  
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If you want Brushed power on the cheap....take a look at bottom of page 13 from this Kyosho Buggy....it's powered by twin 550 "can" motors!
http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/manuals/30521B.pdf
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:13 PM
  #13  
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There isn't any compelling reasons to replace the Astro's. They last almost forever and their efficiency is as good as or better than that of many brushless motors. They seem to last forever. I have an 05G running since 1997 with 500 flights and the brushes are only worn half way to the point where they should be replaced. They are repairable. Their downside is that they are somewhat heavier than an equal brushless. Your money will be better spent on battery upgrades. Brushed motors throttle much better than sensorless brushless motors.
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Old 01-07-2006, 04:57 PM
  #14  
Jeremy Z
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Originally Posted by Al_M View Post
There isn't any compelling reasons to replace the Astro's. They last almost forever and their efficiency is as good as or better than that of many brushless motors.
I highly doubt that the efficiency would be as good or better than a brushless motor. Unless you're talking about some cheap thing without bearings somewhere? Or with bad bearings?

With a brushless motor, the only friction is in the bearings. With a brushed motor, even a high-quality one such as an Astro Flight, there is friction from the brushes rubbing the commutator.

I'd say replace the motor first, as you will get longer runtime out of your old battery pack that way.

Remember that you need a new speed control for a brushless motor, as they are 3-phase AC instead of regular 2-wire DC. The only reason NOT to go brushless is cost.

For example:
Himax 2812-0850 outrunner: $60
Castle Creations Thunderbird 18 speed control: $40
Total: $100

Speed 480 brushed: $10
Electrifly 25A speed control: $25
Total $35

I realize the Speed 480 is not the same caliber as your Astros, but that is why brushed motors are still around. High-quality ball-bearing brushed motors are obsolete, though they still work well.

Did anyone tell you yet that LiPos are fragile compared to NiCd and NiMH batteries? They're wrapped in thick foil, and once that is punctured, they're done. They're also a lot more volatile and require special treatment when charging. (i.e. a special constant voltage charger)

Also, realize that there are two types of brushless motors: outrunners & inrunners. Outrunners do not need gearboxes, so there's no energy lost to friction there either. Inrunners, you still need a gearbox most of the time, but sometimes, that's what you want. The flexibility offered by gearboxes is hard to beat, even if you do lose some energy in gear friction.

Just making sure you know what you're getting into. The performance & efficiency is better, without a doubt. But it does not come cheap!

Jeremy
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Old 01-08-2006, 01:29 AM
  #15  
guapoman2000
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Jeremy,

You obviously did not read my reply at post #9.

Yes, indeed you really can NOT compare an ASTRO or modified RC Buggy Motor with a cheap "CAN" motor!

Jeremy....I have both...Brushless and Brushed for my 40 size sport models of 4.69lbs. and 5.5lbs. respectively. I assure you that it IS possible that a quality Brushed Motor setup can and does provide better efficiency than a Brushless setup.

Look up the specifications of any Brushless motor and it tells you the efficiency at a certain AMP range or AMP value assuming a particular size propeller/pitch and number of cells (Voltage). Anything else below or above this value(s) provide you with much less efficiency. This is because you have mulitude of makers of Brushless ESC's and all have to work with all kinds of Brushless Motors and that's the kicker...many ESC's are not really programmed to maximize efficiency (at least the general RC Electric Flyer) for the particular Brushless motor.

Astro Flight Brushed motors are very high quality motors and they usually come in gearbox form with gobbs of torque and super quality gearboxes thereby the losses in gearbox friction is minimal and does not impeed RPMs at the prop.

Carlos
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Old 01-08-2006, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Al_M View Post
There isn't any compelling reasons to replace the Astro's. They last almost forever and their efficiency is as good as or better than that of many brushless motors. They seem to last forever. I have an 05G running since 1997 with 500 flights and the brushes are only worn half way to the point where they should be replaced. They are repairable. Their downside is that they are somewhat heavier than an equal brushless. Your money will be better spent on battery upgrades. Brushed motors throttle much better than sensorless brushless motors.
I agree!

Just take a look at this Video of my Great Planes Super Sportster "EP" I took the cheap & heavy "can" 600 (stock) motor out and installed a Kyosho 550 size Modified Endoplasma 16-turn double wind Brushed RC Buggy motor and it zips at better than 60 MPH on level approach at two clicks above half throttle!

http://media.putfile.com/Super-Sport...Endo--9X8-Prop

It is in the Battery Technology that has helped tremendously....my Sportster EP is flown with the Pro-Lite cells and a no-name Li-POLYs, both 15C discharge rate!

Carlos
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Old 01-08-2006, 04:33 PM
  #17  
Jeremy Z
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Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
Jeremy....I have both...Brushless and Brushed for my 40 size sport models of 4.69lbs. and 5.5lbs. respectively. I assure you that it IS possible that a quality Brushed Motor setup can and does provide better efficiency than a Brushless setup.!
Well, then perhaps you can inform me why the hobby world is all going towards brushless. Is it because the rest of the world doesn't know what you know? Many of us, yourself included probably, know from experience that brushless is more powerful for the size & weight. (all else being equal)

This is because you have mulitude of makers of Brushless ESC's and all have to work with all kinds of Brushless Motors and that's the kicker...many ESC's are not really programmed to maximize efficiency (at least the general RC Electric Flyer) for the particular Brushless motor.
A brushless controller converts DC to AC. The main variable which effects efficiency in brushless systems is timing. Timing is programmable in any quality brushless controller. Your paragraph above makes it sound like you're assuming most people with brushless motors don't bother to set the timing. If that's the case, it's a bad assumption. When the timing is set properly, brushless is more efficient. It is true that brushed motors don't need this setting, and it is one less mistake a brushed motor user can make.

Assuming a high quality brushed motor & gearbox vs. a high quality brushless motor, the outrunner has one less source of friction, brush friction. This is NOT insignificant. Noise is another way to lose energy, and brushless motors are much quieter. Aside from friction in the bearings, the only loss in brushless is in the circuitry. Now if you're telling me that the brushless controller circuitry is so inefficient that it is down with the brushed motors and all their friction, I'm going to have to play the BS card.

On the other hand, a brushless outrunner setup has TWO less sources of friction than a brushed motor/gearbox, which makes it all the better when compared to brushed.

It's going to be hard to find apples to apples unbiased data on this, but I'm going to throw it out there. (I'm going to email AstroFlight.)

On an unrelated note, AstroFlight has bumped their brushed (cobalt) motors to the bottom of their main page, and put three different types of brushless motors first. I can't imagine why they would do this, rather than promote their miraculously highly-efficient brushed motors?

If anyone's got good unbiased data one way or the other, Carlos & I would be most interested to see it.

I'll take the high road and not roll my eyes. I think we will both learn something from this if we keep it classy.

Jeremy
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Old 01-08-2006, 04:40 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
I agree!

Just take a look at this Video of my Great Planes Super Sportster "EP" I took the cheap & heavy "can" 600 (stock) motor out and installed a Kyosho 550 size Modified Endoplasma 16-turn double wind Brushed RC Buggy motor and it zips at better than 60 MPH on level approach at two clicks above half throttle!
Yeah, now imagine how much better off you'd be if you replaced that clunker of a brushed buggy motor from the 80s with a proper brushless rig!! All the weight saved...

OK, I'm just yanking your chain on this one.
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Old 01-09-2006, 07:30 PM
  #19  
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Default Response from Astro Flight regarding efficiency

In an earlier post, I said I was going to email Astro Flight and enquire about the efficiencies of high-quality brushed vs. high-quality brushless motors. I told him to assume that both motors were of good quality (i.e. Astro Flight) and that the proper speed control settings were used. (i.e. correct timing for brushless)

Here was his verbatim response:

Originally Posted by Bob at Astro Flight
our brushed motor run between 75% and 82% max
efficiency
our brushless motors run between 80 and 90 %
efficiency
the larger size motors have better efficiency than the
smaller ones
bob
So now we know. Cheers!

Jeremy
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Old 01-11-2006, 07:48 AM
  #20  
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Jeremy,

What can I say (write)?

I have been doing this for a long time and again have both type of motors...

I come clean here and say this....I get more satisfaction by going with an inexpensive brushed "Modified" motor in geared form (direct drive for the right model) and save $$$ for yet another model.

I assure those that Jeremy has done a good job by contacting Astro Bob and it's true on his expert word but, the efficiency thingy is no big deal to me as you are getting a few percentile units (more than I can count in one hand, and I have all my fingers still on each hand ) of better efficiency with Brushless motors over the Brushed motor. So, you see it's not that I disagree with you but, many like myself like to own and fly several models and the challenge to setup a brushed "Modified" motor power system that one did not dish out mucho $$$ for and still have respectable performance is the deal with my goals in this hobby.

I find placing a Glow Engine borring and placing a brushless motor that will over power a model (knowing well that it will) I react with a yawn

Certainly, I am not going to say that a Modified Brushed motor is the ticket for all my models that I own and fly except that I do take advantage of them in the right size/weight/airfoil type models with very good success and saved a bungle $$$ for yet another model!

Thanks so much Jeremy

Last edited by guapoman2000; 01-12-2006 at 01:41 AM.
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Old 01-11-2006, 08:05 AM
  #21  
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Speaking of very Large motors....take a look at this motor that a flying buddy has come across and has machined the case and end bells etc....

This is an inrunner brushless motor and we estimate that it delivers around 360Kv and will pull a 16lbs. model with ease ....presently it is still in testing stages. It is too early to tell if my buddy will market it....

-------------------------------------------------------------
Data from my buddy....

more test data on the Delta version of this motor.
volts and amps measured with an in-line watt meter.

3S
14*9*3 prop-10.7volts-12A-3,750rpm

4S
14*9*3-14.8V-19A-5,000rpm
16*10-14.6V-25.5A-4,740rpm (71oz thrust calculated)
20*12-13.5V-36A-3,400rpm (throttle was not at full, due to max amperage of speed control being reached) (89oz thrust calculated)

The motor barelly got warm.
-------------------------------------------------------------

He is also investigating some new Li type of batteries that are coming with cordless drill sets ....stay turned...
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Old 01-11-2006, 08:16 AM
  #22  
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I'm going to move this thread to the power system forum which seems to be a more appropriate place for it to be. I will leave a redirect for it here.
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