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My New Brushless Motor Burned.. Help Please!!

Old 03-26-2018, 02:51 AM
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BackIntoIt
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Default My New Brushless Motor Burned.. Help Please!!

So i recently bought this plane..

https://www.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXFAHZ&P=ML

I bought a 4s 2200mah lipo battery for it, since the instructions do say battery is compatible.

Right out of the box, plug the battery in and 1 minute into running it a whole bunch of white smoke flying out of the motor. Im getting another one in the mail by the end of next week. But i am afraid that if i plug the battery in it will burn the new motor again.

There is not a whole lot of info on the motor available online or on the manual. But here is a list of what i have. I would appreciate any help i can get. I would like to know if the battery is too much for the motor or what?

ESC:
Output Current: 40A
BEC: 5V/3A

https://www.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXETTZ&P=Z
____

Brushless Motor:
kV Rating: 1000
Diameter: 1.4" (36mm)
Motor Length: .79" (20mm)
Shaft Diameter: 5mm

https://www.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXBYJJ&P=Z
____

Lipo Battery:
Venom Fly 30C 4S 2200mAh 14.8V

https://www.venompower.com/products/...h-uni-2-0-plug






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Old 03-26-2018, 06:56 AM
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ron_van_sommeren
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Motorcurrent was too high.
Prop-info is missing: type, diameter, pitch and #blades

Motorcurrent is proportional to pitch¹ (simplified), voltage², Kv³ and diameter⁴.
Power drawn is proportional to pitch¹, voltage³, Kv³ and diameter⁴.
So minor changes can have big effects.

By going from 3s to 4s, current wants to increase by factor (4/3)² = 1.8!
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by BackIntoIt View Post
... I am new to it, i currently have a Zero ...
Advice for getting into flying RC airplanes, and how not to - The Ampeer

Also some well-structured reading and handy e-tools for rainy/windy days.
Will save you, and us a lot of questions. Notably the 'what went wrong?' kind of questions
Will also prevent you from burning up several controllers and/or motors and/or battery:
E-flight primer and tools

And please, do your RC equipment, wallet, ego, battery, controller, motor, house/garage/car a big favour ... get a watt-meter. It will more than pay for itself, will save you at least one fried motor and one fried controller. Will also help you finding the best setup.
And keep watt-/multi-meter wires short
too long wires batteryside will kill ESC over time: precautions, solutions & workarounds

Last edited by ron_van_sommeren; 03-26-2018 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:08 AM
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@Ron thank you for replying... I was unable to find specifics on my prop, but here is what i was able to find.

Prop:
- My prop is a EP-1060X3 GWS
- 10 x 6 / 3-Blade Propeller

https://www.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXEWYT&P=Z

I Will check out the links you posted now and do my bet to understand everything..

So you think by me changing the prop, i can still use my esc, motor, and lipo?

Last edited by BackIntoIt; 03-26-2018 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 03-26-2018, 07:09 AM
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@Ron thank you for replying... I was unable to find specifics on my prop, but here is what i was able to find.

Prop:
- My prop is a EP-1060X3 GWS
- 10 x 6 / 3-Blade Propeller

https://www.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXEWYT&P=Z

I Will check out the links you posted now and do my bet to understand everything..

So you think by me changing the prop, i can still use my esc, motor, and lipo?

Last edited by BackIntoIt; 03-26-2018 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 03-26-2018, 08:17 PM
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ron_van_sommeren
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Were you using the original prop on on 3s and 4s?

Could it be that bolts where too long, damaging the coils in the motor?

A poor contact between FETs in the controller and the motor, or poor contact/soldering in the motor, can also cause motor to go up in smoke.
Motor stuttering? Won't run? - RCG

Your motor is shot, or too much of a risk to use now. You can rewind it though, (sub)forum:
Electric motor design and construction - RCG
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Old 03-27-2018, 06:34 AM
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Yes, original everything... Only have a 4s.. Never used 3s
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Old 03-27-2018, 06:36 AM
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Can brushless be run full speed for a long period of time without burning?
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BackIntoIt View Post
Can brushless be run full speed for a long period of time without burning?
Providing they have adequate cooling there is no reason why not but it depends on what you call a long period. It would be easily within limits to do a 1 hour FPV flight without a problem.
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:42 PM
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Too much prop for that motor on 4S

The motor would be ok on 4S but only with a smaller prop. it's hard to advise in more detail because there are no details of the motor given on the web site (e.g. weight, power rating, max current etc)
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:43 PM
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What prop would you recommend for my 4s setup?
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:32 PM
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I would have to endorse Ron's instruction to get a Watt meter.
It will give you a real time reading of the Amps being drawn as you open the throttle. Before it gets over 40A close the throttle and fit a smaller prop.
If it reaches 40A with the throttle close to full power reducing the prop diameter by one inch should be adequate. You test again to make sure the Amps are no more than 40.
Obviously you don't want to reduce the prop diameter or pitch by too much or the plane may not even fly.

Provided a brushless motor has adequate cooling air the motor should be able, in theory. to run continuously at it maximum rated current but it does rather depend on how 'optimistic' the motor manufacturers claim is!
LiPo batteries are extremely powerful so get something wrong and some part will almost certainly be destroyed - almost instantly.
The only safe and ecomonic way to proceed, given the original set up failed, is to measure what is actually happening.

Last edited by quorneng; 03-28-2018 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:25 PM
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I'd have thought you would be looking at around 30A max for that motor. Something like an APCe 9x5 should be in the right ballpark.
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Old 03-28-2018, 05:59 AM
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@quorneng that is great information.. As @Ron and you have stated i will order a telemetry current sensor and watch my amperage.

Thank you all for your input, i will makes this changes and will report back on the results..
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Old 03-28-2018, 06:44 AM
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I dont think anyone mentioned a telemetry sensor? A wattmeter is a device that you connect between the battery and the ESC and it displays real time current and records peak values. You use them for initial ground testing of a new or modified e-power system.

It is possible these days to get telemetry sensors that send current (and other) data back to your Tx and they are very useful, but for the purposes of initial prop selection that's not really necessary. It's risking over-complicating what is actually a simple solution.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:10 AM
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Yes, i just typed that wrong.. The idea of telemetry came from me while looking at amp meters. Im getting one with telemetry, i already have a telemetry voltmeter and love it.
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Old 03-28-2018, 06:04 PM
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As you are finding out, there is a lot to learn about electric motors. We all have gone through the learning curve and many of us have burned up a motor or two, I know I have.

Sometimes just the simple act of buying a new battery can throw things off. I replaced a cheap Lipo with a much better brand. The C-ratings were not even printed on the cheap battery (this was a long time ago) and the new one had a rating of 35C

The power output of the motor went crazy, from 170 watts to 280 watts because the new battery's voltage output did not sag down very much. The motor could only handle 175 watts and it was an expensive motor. Both batteries were 3 cell 1800mah and about the same weight. I just strapped the new one in and took off. I had 25-50 flights on this plane with the old batteries. I nearly wet my pants, the plane shot out like a rocket and flew like a jet fighter, with luck I got it under control and flew at 1/2 throttle.

Bottom line is; get a good inline wattmeter, and use it if you change any part of the system.

Different brands of props may say they are the same size and pitch but may have wildly different characteristics, so check the watts before you fly.

Also keep a careful list of the specs for each motor you have, and way to identify the motors if they are not marked clearly, even if it just a number scratched into the motor relating back to the spec sheet. Two motors may look the same but have different KV's and different ability to handle voltage, current and props.

I hope all this doesn't scare you off electrics, Just think of having two nitro engines, 1 is a good old sport 40 that flys almost any trainer and sport plane. The other 1 is a high powered racing motor, maybe a Nelson 40, it would blow the wings off the trainer. You need to know just what each one is designed for, and how to use it.
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Old 03-29-2018, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
... Two motors may look the same but have different Kv's ...
Minor changes in setup can have huge effects:
Motorcurrent is proportional to pitch¹, voltage², Kv³ and diameter⁴.
Power-drawn is proportional to pitch¹, voltage³, Kv³ and diameter⁴.
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Old 04-01-2018, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by BackIntoIt View Post
Can brushless be run full speed for a long period of time without burning?
No, like any consumer grade motor or engine cannot run at full power for extended periods of time. The exception would be high performance engines like those used in race cars and real airplanes. Electric motors usually have two power ratings of Continuous and Peak. Example it maybe rated at 300 watts Continuous, and 400 watts Peak aka Burst for some specified period of time like 30 seconds.

Having said that it is possible to be able to run motor at full throttle, but that does not mean full power. You would have to under-size the prop or over size the motor, so at full throttle would be equal to or less than the motors full rated continuous power and current. At first thought you might think that is a good idea, but in practice it is not. It would mean you either have a heavier motor than the plane is designed for, or too small of prop resulting in under powered aircraft.

Another way to look at it is like a car. Say you have a 300 hp engine. The car is designed to cruise at around 1/3 to 1/4 of peak engine power (75 HP) of 300 HP engine. The unused 225 HP is for acceleration and passing slower vehicles. Sure if you put the pedal to the metal the car will go roughly twice as fast than cruise speed, but in a short period of time. your engine would burn up because it was not designed to run at full power for extended periods of time. Just like a car engine, your plane peak power is for take off and getting out of trouble.

Last edited by dereckbc; 04-01-2018 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 04-01-2018, 05:30 AM
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@dereckbc I think thats probably where i messed up. I ran it at full speed for a minute maybe a bit more... I think that was what burned the motor.. I cant think of anything else i did that would make it smoke like that. Im surprised that the motor does not come with this type of information. There is nothing on this motor anywhere.
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Old 04-01-2018, 09:52 AM
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BackIntoIt
Without knowing exactly what current was passing through your motor it is not possible to say whether you were running at the motors full rated power or above it.

It is a bit suspicious that the plane you have is claimed to run on either a 3s or 4s using the same prop. Going from 3 to 4s virtually doubles the current the motor will take, thus if it anywhere near its maximum Amps on a 3s battery it will definitely be over loaded on a 4s.
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:18 AM
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a) Common Wattmeter for ground testing as others advised.
b) Register for couple of $ with eCalc and you get all the info against input data for most motor / battery / prop combos before you even kit out.

Looking at the advert ... I have a gut feeling that the 3 blade prop is OK on 3S but not for 4S ... I would be inclined to swap to a 10x5 2 blade on the 4S or a 9x6 2 blader ... checking of course with Wattmeter ...

Nigel
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Old 04-01-2018, 02:21 PM
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It is a good practice to have some headroom built in.
About derating motors, controllers, batteries, electronics in general:
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Old 04-01-2018, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by quorneng View Post
... Going from 3 to 4s virtually doubles the current the motor will take ...
And toy grade manufacturers don't design for an extra 100% margin in ratings.


Without a watt-meter you are in the dark, until something starts to glow
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Old 04-01-2018, 03:25 PM
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"Without a watt-meter you are in the dark, until something starts to glow"

~ ron_van_sommeren


That would make an excellent signature.
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