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First Crash w Pictures and Questions

Old 08-30-2013, 12:17 AM
  #1  
dereckbc
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Default First Crash w Pictures and Questions

Well it had to happen Sooner rather than Later. I busted up my Apprentice S 15e. What frost my pumpkin is I do not think it was Pilot Error. I had taken off about 5 minutes or less and was practicing patterns, landing pattern to be exact. Had th eplane Trimmed out at 1/2 throttle and in Beginner Mode. I had just turned final to fly down the run way, applied about 3/4 throttle and was gaining altitude to about 100 feet when all the sudden the plane went into a violent Snap Roll and drilled into the ground. I hit the PANIC BUTTON but nothing happened. Only other thing I had time to do was cut the throttle before impact. For thoos no tfamilar with th eApprentice S it is equiped with a SAFE RX and has three modes of Beginner, Intermediate, and Experienced. It also has a PANIC FEATURE which will level it out immediately from any orientation. So the point I am making is I was in Beginner Mode which will no tallow you to pitch or roll more than 20 degrees.

I do not know exactly what happened bu tafter looking at the damage I do not think it was mechanical failure. I suspect electronic failure. Anyway here are the pics. Notice the wing is not damaged nor any of the aileron linkages damaged. The wing was fully attached after th ecrash and not one rubber band broke.









OK initially the damage is what you see. Broke the tail section off, snapped off the vert stab which I fixed already, busted up the motor cowl and motor mount. In all about $15 of parts and a couple of hours. No big deal.

Well about 3 hours ago I tested the RX, Servos, Motor, and ESC. Power it up and it initializes, and all servos work. Then I advance the throttle a little to see of th emotor will spin up. Motor made a buzzing sound, and smoke rolled out of the ESC. CRAP

OK here is the question part for you experienced motor guys. E-Flite (aka Horizon Hobby) wants almost $125 fro a new motor and ESC shipped. That is ridiculous $70 for the motor and $45 for the 30 amp ESC. So here is the question:

Does anyone know of a compatible replacement, or how to cross reference?

I see all kinds of 840 KV 15 size motors outh there from $25 to $35 dollars, and 30 amp ESC for $20/ But which one to fit my plane and compatible with the RX and servos?
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:57 AM
  #2  
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I wish I could help ya with a good setup but I cant. However I do know someone who decided to use an ESC and motor from Hobbyking in the Apprentice S (cant remember the sizes of either) and it did not work well at all. His esc seemed to surge even after swapping with a known good esc. In fact his Apprentice became one jumble of foam. Not sure of it is a Horizon Hobby thing and proprietor thing but I recommend you go with original equipment. Just my 2 cents
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:32 AM
  #3  
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Still say send Headsuprc and email attention Jeff. Explain what what you need. They will be able to make a rec that will mostly likely be a direct swap out. Good company. Very helpful ! Second choice would be Grayson Hobby cause I think they may even sell the Apprentice. Contact Basil anothr good company.
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:15 AM
  #4  
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There is nothing 'special' about e-flite motors or ESC's. Providing you get a motor of about the same kv, some size and weight it will work just fine.

HobbyKing has a few choices that would work:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_810kv.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_Motor.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_Motor.html

If it were me I'd weigh the stock motor and pick one that closely matched that weight along with being within 50kv or so, this ensures you wont have any CG issues and can run a similar size prop to the standard motor.

Any brushless ESC will work but try to find one that has a switching mode BEC. If it were me I'd also get an ESC with higher Amp rating to allow for getting a bit more out of the motor, all these motors are capable of more than 30 amps. For instance:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ontroller.html
or
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ontroller.html
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:47 PM
  #5  
dereckbc
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Still say send Headsuprc and email attention Jeff.
I have waiting for reply. Issue I have right now the two motors they list do not list the 11 x 8 prop the apprentice uses.
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:49 PM
  #6  
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Thanks for the seach, I appreciate it. Trouble I am having i sknowin gif it will fit the motor mount and can swing the 11 x 8 the plane uses. Specs do not give me a clue, or else I do not know what I am looking for.

Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
There is nothing 'special' about e-flite motors or ESC's. Providing you get a motor of about the same kv, some size and weight it will work just fine.

HobbyKing has a few choices that would work:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_810kv.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_Motor.html
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_Motor.html

If it were me I'd weigh the stock motor and pick one that closely matched that weight along with being within 50kv or so, this ensures you wont have any CG issues and can run a similar size prop to the standard motor.

Any brushless ESC will work but try to find one that has a switching mode BEC. If it were me I'd also get an ESC with higher Amp rating to allow for getting a bit more out of the motor, all these motors are capable of more than 30 amps. For instance:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ontroller.html
or
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ontroller.html
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:06 PM
  #7  
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Proving you get a motor of about the same kv and similar weight it will handle the same prop.

If it were me I'd probably plumb for this one from the HK line up: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_Motor.html

The likes of heads-Up will no doubt have good options too, just look to match kv and weight and you will be fine.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:11 AM
  #8  
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Another vote for HeadsUp for any electrical item needed.

I was flying a buddies Apprentice the same as yours with the Safe and it did some very "weird" things in the air until we reset the gyro on the ground and let the plane sit still until it initialized.

It flew fine in Expert but either of the two other settings it dove for the ground.

The Safe working or not I would simply put time in on it and not depend on sketchy technology to save your toy... It is a trainer, it will get beat up, it will serve a purpose and you will move on to something else. Use it and learn from it and leave it when done.
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:17 PM
  #9  
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I do not think it was mechanical failure. I suspect electronic failure. from post #1

Well about 3 hours ago I tested the RX, Servos, Motor, and ESC. Power it up and it initializes, and all servos work. Then I advance the throttle a little to see of th emotor will spin up. Motor made a buzzing sound, and smoke rolled out of the ESC. CRAP

I Think you are right I dont think that the Safe Receiver is a full Range receiver, i could be wrong, please correct me if I am, If its not a full range receiver, you could of Had a masking problem and the receiver could have gone into a brown out, second problem could have been a LVC where the receiver could have gone into a brown out situation because of low voltage, you said you were climbing under power to 100 feet and had been in the air for about 5 mins, I know the 30 amp E Flite ESC has a switching mode bec, but its only good for 700 mah, I belive that a 30 amp ESC is to small for a BL 15 Size motor, you need to have at least a 20 to 25% amp Cushion, and if the ESC is right at the amp draw of the motor, its not going to last very long and get hot, If it was my plane, here is how i would fix it,

1. install a 5 amp ubec
2. get a full range AR400 2.4 receiver with out the Safe Gizmo, you dont need it any more, you have earned your wings and the gyro could have been damaged in the crash.
3 .get a power system from heads up Rc, contact Jeff at Heads up Rc and he will set you up.
4. use a 40 Amp ESC or larger, all the 15 size BL motors that I have seen online recommend a 40 to 60 size ESC, I am Just wondering it the Apprentice 30 Amp ESC is under rated for a 15 BL Motor and causing failures.

Last edited by CHELLIE; 09-01-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:47 PM
  #10  
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Apprentice parts

http://www.amainhobbies.com/index.ph...FYdxQgod-SgAvA
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:02 PM
  #11  
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Default Eflite 15 motor specs

Features
  • Equivalent to a 15-size glow engine for sport and scale airplanes weighing 36–56 oz (1020–1590 g)
  • Ideal for 3D airplanes weighing 32–40 oz (910–1135 g)
  • Ideal for models requiring up to 425 watts of power
  • High-torque, direct-drive alternative to inrunner brushless motors
  • Includes mount, prop adapters and mounting hardware
  • External rotor design—5mm shaft can easily be reversed for alternative motor installations
  • Slotted 12-pole outrunner design
  • High quality construction with ball bearings and hardened steel shaft
  • Quiet, lightweight operation

Specifications:
Type: Brushless Outrunner Motor
Size: 15-size
Bearings or Bushings: Ball Bearings
Wire Gauge: 16
Recommended Prop Range: 10x6–13x6.5
Voltage: 7.4 - 14.4V
RPM/Volt (Kv): 950
Resistance (Ri): .03 ohms
Idle Current (Io): 2.00A @10V
Continuous Current: 34A
Maximum Burst Current: 42A (15 sec)
Cells: 8–12 Ni-MH/Ni-Cd or 3-4S Li-Po
Speed Control: 40-45A Brushless
Weight: 152g (5.4 oz)
Overall Diameter: 35mm (1.40 in)
Shaft Diameter: 5mm (.20 in)
Overall Length: 50mm (1.90 in)

Last edited by CHELLIE; 09-01-2013 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:03 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
I Think you are right I dont think that the Safe Receiver is a full Range receiver, i could be wrong, please correct me if I am, If its not a full range receiver, you could of Had a masking problem and the receiver could have gone into a brown out, second problem could have been a LVC where the receiver could have gone into a brown out situation because of low voltage, you said you were climbing under power to 100 feet and had been in the air for about 5 mins,

Not sure about the receiver, I know it is made by Spektrum same as my TX which is a DX7S. The receiver says E-Flite, but made by Spektrum. Brownout very doubtful, in fact I am certain. The battery in at the time as a Hyperion 3S 3200 mah 40C and I can get 20 minutes on it still have to discharge for storage. When I got home and discharged it it was @ 12.1 volts or near 80% SOC. Fortunately the wires on the battery were still in good shape. Cannot say the same for ESC and motor.
Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
I know the 30 amp E Flite ESC has a switching mode bec, but its only good for 700 mah, I belive that a 30 amp ESC is to small for a BL 15 Size motor, you need to have at least a 20 to 25% amp Cushion,
The BEC is 5 volt 3.5 amp required for active 3-axis control. At least that is what the spec says.
Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
3 .get a power system from heads up Rc, contact Jeff at Heads up Rc and he will set you up.
4. use a 40 Amp ESC or larger, all the 15 size BL motors that I have seen online recommend a 40 to 60 size ESC, I am Just wondering it the Apprentice 30 Amp ESC is under rated for a 15 BL Motor and causing failures.

Well I have been trying to get in touch with Heads up but no luck. Wednesday night I used the contact form, no reply. Friday I call at 1:15pm my time (CST) and get a recording saying they do not answer the phone after 2 pm (est). They are making it very difficult to do business with.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:47 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post

Not sure about the receiver, I know it is made by Spektrum same as my TX which is a DX7S. The receiver says E-Flite, but made by Spektrum. Brownout very doubtful, in fact I am certain. The battery in at the time as a Hyperion 3S 3200 mah 40C and I can get 20 minutes on it still have to discharge for storage. When I got home and discharged it it was @ 12.1 volts or near 80% SOC. Fortunately the wires on the battery were still in good shape. Cannot say the same for ESC and motor.

The BEC is 5 volt 3.5 amp required for active 3-axis control. At least that is what the spec says.

Well I have been trying to get in touch with Heads up but no luck. Wednesday night I used the contact form, no reply. Friday I call at 1:15pm my time (CST) and get a recording saying they do not answer the phone after 2 pm (est). They are making it very difficult to do business with.
This is a holiday they might be closed for a long weekend. Did you send Jeff a email? They are one of the best at responding quick with a answer to a question. Myself and I know some others have had Jeff email back on a sat. night to answer a question try getting that from other online vendors.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:52 PM
  #14  
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every email I've sent to Jeff I got a response within 2 or 3 hours.even on weekends. a lot of hobby shops shut down for memorial day rc events. don't get too distraught, this is definitely out of the norm for Jeff.

id get this motor

http://www.headsuphobby.com/Power-Up...otor-E-575.htm
and the motor mount for the fire wallet ensure it will fit. only because I am not sure of the apprentice motor mount bolt pattern.
http://www.headsuphobby.com/E-Flite-...tors-G-184.htm

obviously if you wanted more power you could run either the 25 sport or speed motor.
http://www.headsuphobby.com/Sky-Powe...-BEC-H-105.htm

45 amp esc for the 15 sized motor and 60 amp for the 25.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:10 PM
  #15  
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Would somebody PLEASE share JEFF's EMAIL with me. PM me if you are not comfortable replying publicly.

THX

Dereck
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:39 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Brownout very doubtful, in fact I am certain. The battery in at the time as a Hyperion 3S 3200 mah 40C and I can get 20 minutes on it still have to discharge for storage. When I got home and discharged it it was @ 12.1 volts ....
Brownout has nothing to do with the charge left in your battery, it's related to the voltage output from the BEC. The BEC will continue to work perfectly normally long after the flight battery is discharged to low voltage cut-out.

But i agree that there is no evidence that points to a brownout.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:48 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by CHELLIE View Post
I dont think that the Safe Receiver is a full Range receiver, i could be wrong, please correct me if I am, If its not a full range receiver, you could of Had a masking problem and the receiver could have gone into a brown out, second problem could have been a LVC where the receiver could have gone into a brown out situation because of low voltage,
It's a full range receiver.

Masking of the signal would not cause a brownout. A brownout is caused when the receiver re-boots due to low voltage. If there was loss of signal the receiver would have gone to failsafe, which on the Apprentice with it's SAFE system would be straight and level stabilised flight.

As my last post... LVC would not cause a brownout. LVC on a 3s LiPo activates around 9-10V, that's far more than the BEC needs to supply 5V to the radio gear.

Dereck,

FWIW I have heard reports of the SAFE system 'taking a funny turn' and crashing the plane. Hard to say if the reports are genuine or caused by operator error, but a SAFE fault cant be ruled out.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:22 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Dereck,

FWIW I have heard reports of the SAFE system 'taking a funny turn' and crashing the plane. Hard to say if the reports are genuine or caused by operator error, but a SAFE fault cant be ruled out.
Well I am not an experienced RC pilot, but I am an experienced private pilot.

You have now heard it from me. I am convinced the SAFE technology has bugs in it. This i snot my first problem with it. HH has sent me 2 replacement RX since June.

What is funny is I found this site because I was ridiculed on another forum when I reported problems. Some thought I was a competitor trying to put down HH and E-Flite.

I was flying straight level and climbing, 3/4 throttle light winds 2 to 5 knots, dead straight into the wind, in Beginner Mode ,and controls neutral. For whatever reason the plane Snapped Rolled and drilled into the ground. PANIC BUTTON did nothing and there was plenty of altitude to recover.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:37 PM
  #19  
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Dereck,

I'm not in any way doubting the accuracy of your crash report. But it's possible that there may have been another cause apart from SAFE. Planes did crash in similar ways long before SAFE was ever invented
An intermittent servo fault, a transmitter or receiver fault, interference, something coming adrift on the plane like a loose control horn or similar (you would probably have discovered that I guess).

As I said in my last post, a SAFE 'bug' cant be ruled out but IMHO it would be leaping to conclusions to say SAFE was the cause.... No?
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:06 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
An intermittent servo fault,
I had one of those the other day... The aileron servo just started doing it's own thing. Luckily I cut the motor and crashed in tall grass with no other damage.
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:10 AM
  #21  
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Lets not forget broken linkages. I have had a few of those - one broken servo arm too. Stuff is complex lots of stuff to break!
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:03 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Well it had to happen Sooner rather than Later. I busted up my Apprentice S 15e. What frost my pumpkin is I do not think it was Pilot Error. I had taken off about 5 minutes or less and was practicing patterns, landing pattern to be exact. Had th eplane Trimmed out at 1/2 throttle and in Beginner Mode. I had just turned final to fly down the run way, applied about 3/4 throttle and was gaining altitude to about 100 feet when all the sudden the plane went into a violent Snap Roll and drilled into the ground.
Geeze
This sort of thing really makes me wonder about your ESC and its BEC (Battery Elimination Circuit)

If that ESC uses a "Linear" type of voltage regulator, those things can overheat and shut down to protect itself. Meanwhile, you crash your model. I've seen it happen several times at our club field. By the time you get to your model, that voltage regulator chip has cooled off, and starts working just fine.

Here is a description of this phenomenon.
BEC Linear Current Rating
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63779

As for replacement ESC's, Castle Creations has their ICE series of ESC's that have the switching power supply type of BEC. But, they are not cheap.

I've got the 90 Amp version of the CC Talon ESC, it is very nicely made.

Here is their 35 Amp version of the Talon ESC. This includes a coupon for a free computer USB programmer unit to allow programming your ESC through your computer, if desired.
http://www.castlecreations.com/products/talon.html
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:58 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Well I am not an experienced RC pilot, but I am an experienced private pilot.

You have now heard it from me. I am convinced the SAFE technology has bugs in it. This i snot my first problem with it. HH has sent me 2 replacement RX since June.

What is funny is I found this site because I was ridiculed on another forum when I reported problems. Some thought I was a competitor trying to put down HH and E-Flite.

I was flying straight level and climbing, 3/4 throttle light winds 2 to 5 knots, dead straight into the wind, in Beginner Mode ,and controls neutral. For whatever reason the plane Snapped Rolled and drilled into the ground. PANIC BUTTON did nothing and there was plenty of altitude to recover.
I am Convinced Now, That it was Alien Beam Weapon Technology that caused a EMP SPIKE that shot down your plane Darn Aliens, they need to go play some where else, and stick to crop circles LOL
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Old 09-02-2013, 03:06 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Dereck,

I'm not in any way doubting the accuracy of your crash report. But it's possible that there may have been another cause apart from SAFE.
I agree with you.

Here are a few facts I know first hand about.

  • I am not the first or last person to have this experience.
  • I have received 2 FREE Rx from HH from odd behavior.
  • I crashed under questionable circumstances..

Those are fair and accurate statements, and I consider myself a fair person.
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Old 09-02-2013, 03:10 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
Lets not forget broken linkages. I have had a few of those - one broken servo arm too. Stuff is complex lots of stuff to break!
I have not ruled that out. Wing Ailerons are in the picture undamaged and test operable post crash. I cannot rule out a Aileron stuck. All I can say is the plane was in straight level flight with no input from myself before the incident.

Rudder and Elevator clevises were sheared from impact with the pins sheared off and rubber grommets in tact.

I have two theories.

1. Control failure on one of the control surfaces.
2. SAFE RX went Stupid.
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