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Old 01-13-2018, 08:22 PM   #1
pizzano
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Default Misconceptions: Drone Attack Paranoia

I'd like to point out a few of the misconceptions, a couple of members here, continue to throw-out about how "simple, inexpensive and ease of operation" it is to build, operate and arm a (drone) UAV for the commission to harm mankind....!

Firstly, the discussion will not debate the term "drone" to any extent other than to point out that the term is nothing more than the lack of understanding, by many, to call anything that flies "unmanned" and "remotely" radio controlled, a "drone". For the sake of this discussion, "drone" will only be recognized to limit the terminology to "multi-rotor" tri-copters, quad-copters, penta-copters, hexa-copters and octo-copters......since that is the term a few here continue referring to with statements like...:

"Drones is where the hobby has gone. Planes are out"
"In the USA it is irresponsible QUAD owners that threatens our hobby"
"any fool can buy a drone and fly it here is threatening our hobby"

Secondly, thanks to media gratification and manufacturing marketing, the term "drone" is consistently used to describe not only hobby grade toys, but also sophisticated military UAV aircraft......which, by any standard, are not related in anyway other than being unmanned and remotely radio controlled......so are fixed wing craft, which brings me to the next point.

Thirdly, to the best of my knowledge and based on public media broadcast history, there have only been reported globally (outside of Iraq and Syria), within the last 4 years, 3 such events where self-made, hobby grade parts and accessories have been actually assembled, flown and detonated with devices made to harm persons & property. The latest such event, which has brought the public paranoia to another fever pitch, is.....:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/12/russ...-in-syria.html

https://futurism.com/home-made-drone...ministry-says/

The other reported attacks occurred in Israel, Libya and Yemen. I'm more than sure there have been a few other successful events, but the point here, as one would notice by the reports and attached links, the vehicles used in all but one of the events were fixed wing aircraft.

Fourthly, and more to the original point of this observation, statements made like this...:

"any 15yr old with no prior RC experience and a little money in his/ her pocket, can easily build, arm it with explosives and fly it into harms way"......."our hobby is doomed and s--t will hit the fan once someone actually does it, causing problems for everyone in this hobby".......and that logic goes on and on from a few here at wattflyer.

If memory serves me, it wasn't that long ago when RC heli's took to the skies causing a good number of "plankers" to have the same concerns and promises to "shoot them out of the sky" if they invaded ones personal and private airspace. Further investigation found the majority who felt that way lived in gun toting states like Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas....mostly southern US based states where the mentality that, nothing that doesn't have "wings" should be permitted to fly RC, existed.

Furthermore, the "idea" that building and arming a "drone" is simple and inexpensive. Well, there are plenty of documented facts related to such, that would/will dispute that idea in a heartbeat. Admittedly, if one is referring to a fixed-wing hobby parts craft, the cost and complexity is greatly reduced.......for that matter, there are records within the AMA archives that discuss individuals who successfully built and armed fixed wing craft with dynamite sticks that caused damage to property.......!

The other idea that "drones" will doom the hobby because they are so "easy" to fly and can go where fixed wing craft cannot, causing mayhem and destruction, is also a ridiculous misnomer.......The very same mentality preached the identical idea with heli's. To date, there have yet been any recorded or published articles in the last 5 years (that I am aware of) claiming an armed RC heli was used in the commission of life or property destruction (outside of a few You Tube videos filmed by complete idiots).

Fifthly and final thought........

There are several obvious and technical reasons "drones" are not the "go to" choice for mayhem and destruction. Even with the advent of more powerful transmitting/receiving capabilities, FPV, guidance and stability applications and very skilled pilots and mechanics. The cost and technical know-how to successfully get a "drone" in the air and to it's destination with a payload of as much or more than the weight of the craft itself, is very large, slow, not incognito, expensive, complicated and not anywhere near hobby parts budgets........just look into Amazon's blog related to their "science fiction"....!
Maybe a multi swarm of mini quads loaded with 12ga shot shells, piloted by a number of skilled crazy military types could pull-off an incident news worthy. But I fear the complexity and coordination of such a event would most likely be difficult to hide or keep under cover due to the amount of actual rehearsal that would be required.

Now, that is not to say there will not come a day when "drones" could be a commercial delivery option. But the FAA here in the US will regulate that option to death, making the possibility decades and dollars away from reality.

Like stated previously, the reference here to "drones" is as articulated above, a multi-rotor craft that is not of the fixed-wing category. The "Case and Point" provided by the author, can be substantiated through the research of news archives and public records. The opinions expressed here are of the authors own observations, continued study and use of UAV craft....both fixed-wing and multi-rotor for profit and hobby.

Just like the argument I made back in the late 90's with heli's..........It's not the craft or vehicle that we need to be concerned about (like motor vehicles & firearms)..........It's the guy/gal behind the wheel, trigger or key-board (transmitter) controller that really needs to be regulated, monitored and licensed......I'll leave that to another dialog, since I also firmly believe that retailers, wholesalers, manufactures and the salesman behind the counter or key board should also be cognizant of the local FAA laws and limitations here in the US and have the ability to maintain a data base to track the sales of "the more sophisticated" (whatever that means) RC equipment that have extensive range and mobility...........for another time..!
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:40 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by pizzano View Post
Thirdly, to the best of my knowledge and based on public media broadcast history, there have only been reported globally (outside of Iraq and Syria), within the last 4 years, 3 such events where self-made, hobby grade parts and accessories have been actually assembled, flown and detonated with devices made to harm persons & property. The latest such event, which has brought the public paranoia to another fever pitch, is.....:
Which proves and means it can and will be done here sooner than later. What else is there to know? DRONES whether you like it or not, is threatening our beloved hobby period.
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Old 01-14-2018, 04:04 AM   #3
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You do realize that by posting that here you are for the most part "preaching to the choir", right?

You need to take that editorial out where the somnambulant public can be educated by it.

OK, I got my "drone licence"...
When does the season start and what Ammo can I use?
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:30 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by FlyWheel View Post
You do realize that by posting that here you are for the most part "preaching to the choir", right?

You need to take that editorial out where the somnambulant public can be educated by it.
To some "extent", you may be correct. However, given the lack of members and information within our wattflyer UAV, multi-rotor, heli indexes and the overwhelming fixed wing popularity and biases towards such, it's no secret that there are more than just a number here that truly believe "drones" will be the cause for the RC aerial community to just be regulated and priced out of existence..........even those here who have "sleepwalked" through technology and enjoy there hobby within the wide open spaces of Kansas (as an example)...........no pointing of fingers here.

Based on historical responses and viewership head counts here, more than half of those referred to as "biased" don't own or care to own a multi-rotor craft and bite their tongues when pressed to explain their bias......... I believe you've been here long enough to acknowledge that observation......?.......it's certainly not a "Mormon Tabernacle Choir" audience to which I speak.

It only takes one ill-informed and outspoken advocate to start a rumor or cause for confusion......and a few "sleepwalkers" that join in to start a riot.
There is proof of that at RCG and other social media hangouts where, if left unattended, facts get lost in the translation of those defending their "personal" opinions. Just like the use of the term "drone"; even within the industry misconceptions abound.

Wattflyer has been a good place to express "intelligent and informed" ideas and opinions and has shown to be a place of tolerance and commitment. I decided and have used this platform as a launching pad in the past to stimulate many opinions and ideas. Which in turn, are editorialized and used at other venues I occasionally frequent related to RC....that's one a few reasons I continue to stay engaged here.

I apologize if the topic or dissertation does not resonate to those informed better than I. It's more to those who continue to ride the "bandwagon" of doom and gloom coming to the aerial RC community and those who display the "popular" paranoia concepts requiring the use of firearms to relieve themselves of those nasty little "drones" EVERYONE is flying today.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:51 AM   #5
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I hope you realize that wattflyer is, has and always shall be (lack of better phrase) an unfriendly FPV/quadcopter type forum. Its not the people that make it unfriendly but the attitudes that make it unfriendly. I am pretty sure you wont change any minds here :-)

Happy flying may your crashes be limited and if they are not limited let them be cool.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:15 AM   #6
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It should by now be blatantly obvious to even the most dim witted that if a terrorist/nutcase wants to do harm to people then there are many far more effective and far more easily accessible methods that RC toys. The effectiveness of guns (where they are readily available) or trucks (which you can hire or steal anywhere) to do harm to many people has unfortunately been demonstrated for too often.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:38 AM   #7
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As a member of LARPAS - the Latvian Group given the job of coming up with recommendations for Model Flying in Latvia by CAA .. so they can then present to the EU body. I can say following :

The term DRONE - has come about not through ignorance of the Model World - but through Agencies and Public latching onto an emotive term. It suits media to continue its use. Even in our 'official' statements to CAA - we have to use not only the terms Autonomous Flight / Unmanned Vehicle etc. (the correct and less emotive) but also the word DRONE.

Because various Multi-Rotor groups have also sprung up such as 'Drone Racing' ... 'Drone FPV' ... just to name two ... the name sticks. Unfortunate but true.

I fought hard in LARPAS to try change this and get more acceptable terminology - but it was put aside by CAA reps and the Drone only community represented there.

Accusing WF members of bias ? OK - accepted - but at least WF is 'nice' about it and non-confrontational as in RCG and especially 'drone' based forums. It will be evident wherever there are model flyers. What ever your preferred model - if you see rules and regs coming that start to restrict what you can do - what do you expect ? Of course the knives come out.

If we go back through the years of model flying. For many decades model flying has been accepted and public generally in awe of the ability and achievements. Of course odd accidents occurred but given the low number vs the large number of flights etc. - it wasn't normally headline news.
Come the Helicopters and then Multi-Rotors that didn't need the wide open spaces anymore ... this cracked open a door that has been slowly opening wider ever since. I remember the uproar over a Helicopter in UK that got out of control - media had a field day - then shortly after - an experienced flyer lost his helicopter and it hit a girl.

Hogwart and people like Trappy made headline international news with their stupidity. Hogwart flying over people on the beach and then uploading a video of a gun mounted onto a Multi-Rotor ... actually firing it and showing how easy it was.
Reports of Fire Fighting aircraft grounded because they are trying to find the idiot with a camera drone in the emergency airspace.

In Riga we have actual proven flights of drones in the approach flight path of Riga Airport ... we are not talking about when the aircraft is 000's ft up ... this is actual just outside perimeter fence - where aircraft is well below max altitude of even a DJI.
Police chased a guy who was repeatedly flying loops round and through the road bridge structure over the Dauga River .. a 4 lane busy main bridge into city. Its actually illegal to fly within City area as its part of the airport airspace.

Whether we like it or not - the development of the DJI / Quanum / Syma / Echine / WLtoys / Yuneec .... the list goes on and on ... multi-rotors have opened up a market where it is true a kid can buy and fly out of the box with little or no RC model knowledge. The world has moved on from the DIY multi-rotor that took knowledge and hours of setup to successfully fly. Now out of box .. and away it goes ...

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Old 01-14-2018, 03:38 PM   #8
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And 20 years from now...

Things change, and?

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex...it takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction."
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:40 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by formontoya View Post
And 20 years from now...

Things change, and?
The Drone boys will be moaning about the xxxxx new fangled on the block !

Exactly.

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Old 01-14-2018, 04:11 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
The Drone boys will be moaning about the xxxxx new fangled on the block !

Exactly.

Nigel
Exactly. They already are they will say things such as "why fly with outdated tech" When it may only be a year or two old

Happy flying may your crashes be limited and if they are not limited let them be cool.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:20 PM   #11
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I can remember endless discussions when Heli's started appearing ...

NO WAY for clubs / shows going to allow them to fly same venue ....

They were going to kill off RC as we know it ....

etc. etc.

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Old 01-14-2018, 05:30 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
I can remember endless discussions when Heli's started appearing ...
Planes and heli's take skill with a lot of time, and training to learn the skills. Drones take no skill.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:45 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Heli's take a lot of skill. Drone takes none.
Unfair comment Derek .... because it falls into P's 'bucket' ....

I have 'drones' that are not so easy ... its only the DJI / Yuneec type of autonomous camera stuff that takes very little skill.

There are even toy drones out there that tax the skill of many ... because they don't have the electronics of the DJI etc.

But generally I agree that Heli's are far more difficult to fly than average drone.

My point about history though with Heli's .... I've been involved with Heli's since early 80's ... no gyros ... glow engined ....

Here's a video of Southern Area Heli Comp (John Heaton and other famous UK Heli pioneers in the video) ... I was entered but I sheered the pin in the clutch bell preventing my flights...



That comp had a lot of opposition to it by regular RC flyers ... and you can see in this next video - same area and the Southern Area Scale Comp ... (I achieved 8th place and very proud of it with the Nieuport 28) ...



Until that comp - all Heli flyers were forced to fly in the 'crap' at sides of the area ... which of course made matters worse ...

I put 1990 as year on the videos - but I lost the actual dates and I am sure they were significantly earlier than that - probably around 84 - 85.

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Old 01-14-2018, 07:41 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Unfair comment Derek .... because it falls into P's 'bucket' ....
Unfair? How?

I am certainly not taking Pizzano's side, exact opposite. I am not sure what government legislation is or has occurred on your side of the pond, but on our side of the pond we are now required to registrar with the FAA.

I have mixed feelings about it. As someone who plays by the rules, and being free I can live with it. I have both FAA Registration and AMA insurance. However those rules only apply to honest people who intend no harm. However it is the people who do not follow the rules or bad intent who has brought this upon us. I suspect one day sooner or later someone will use a Drone as a weapon, and when that happens we could loose our privilege. It is a Privilege granted to us and no one is entitled to fly whatever they want, wherever they want, or when they want. It is like driving and does put the public at risk.
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Old 01-14-2018, 08:05 PM   #15
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I commented unfair ... because it drops into his view of :

"I'd like to point out a few of the misconceptions, a couple of members here, continue to throw-out about how "simple, inexpensive and ease of operation" it is to build, operate and arm a (drone) UAV for the commission to harm mankind....!"

The fact that Hogwart did exactly that is beside the point ?

Not getting at you Derek - far from it.

I'm actually wondering why you (Pizzano) posted as you did ? I think we all realise whether we like it or not that the world is unfair and it goes round and round.

I do get a bit fed up hearing doom about our hobby. Its been roller coaster ride for near a century now ... as new gear comes on the scene - old-farts react. Way of life.

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Old 01-15-2018, 02:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
Planes and heli's take skill with a lot of time, and training to learn the skills. Drones take no skill.
Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
I hope you realize that wattflyer is, has and always shall be (lack of better phrase) an unfriendly FPV/quadcopter type forum. Its not the people that make it unfriendly but the attitudes that make it unfriendly. I am pretty sure you wont change any minds here :-)
and my point comes full circle.

Helis and quads are two different animals and take different skill sets to fly well. I wont argue because I cant for the life of me figure out how heli folks make them do what they can do. I also know that the heli guys can not get their quads to do what I can do.

Happy flying may your crashes be limited and if they are not limited let them be cool.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:33 PM   #17
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Not paranoia, It is already too late.

https://youtu.be/dqBnGiiFToU
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Old Yesterday, 03:06 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Panther View Post
Not paranoia, It is already too late.

https://youtu.be/dqBnGiiFToU
LOL I love that video best spoof on drones ever

Happy flying may your crashes be limited and if they are not limited let them be cool.
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Old Yesterday, 09:06 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
LOL I love that video best spoof on drones ever
But the matter is - how long before that can actually be done ? We are already halfway there ...

Nigel

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Old Yesterday, 10:26 AM   #20
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Yes they already have the little bejeebers doing synchronised dancing... What next?
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