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First try at scratch build-F-106

Old 02-28-2006, 05:32 PM
  #1  
tenore
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Default First try at scratch build-F-106

I've had the itch to scratch build an edf for a while and have decided to bite the bullet. After looking and thinking about ease of building, have decided to do the F-106 for the mini-fan. Looking at specs, according to what I have found, I need at least 100 watts for every pound. I am getting about 375 out of mega 1615/2 w/ 3s 4000 mah li-poly pack. I had the 3-view blown up to about 30". Going to build out of balsa and ply, after I see how it flies, thinking about glassing it. 30" wingspan gives about a 55"? length. With the respect I have for you guys, and the accumulated knowledge here, I wanted to if you think that is realistic, with a build to fly, not crash plane. Also, do you think I have pretty well maxed out what my existing power setup will do? Thanks for all the help. I have learned a lot just reading all the posts here.
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Old 02-28-2006, 09:35 PM
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Speed is Life
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Just a couple of observations based on my experience with my Stumax F-104 and K&A F-84 which are roughly the same size category and MiniFan power:
A 30" F-106 will have a fair bit more wing area and a delta has more drag in slower flight Angles Of Attack. Also you are talking about probably 3+Lbs flying weight.
Based on this assumption, I think a 375watt setup would be marginal for this size model. Looking at more like 600+watts (which is do-able with different motor & 4s or 5s) might be the ticket.
Just me but I'd consider 150watts/Lb as a minimum for EDF (as opposed to prop).
-Mike

Last edited by Speed is Life; 02-28-2006 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 03-01-2006, 03:01 AM
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turbonut
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Speed is dead on! at least 150 watts per pound. the Jhh sky ray is approx 3lbs and 600 watts with a mini fan and you dont want to go any slower..I have seen Chris fly his and its good perf. but you have to get it on step before she shines.
Scott
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Old 03-01-2006, 05:19 PM
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tenore
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Thanks for your responses. That is what I was afraid of. I have a choice to make then. What span do you think would work? Or, what power setup do I need?
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:42 PM
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Speed is Life
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Keep the size jet you were talking about if you can stand the cost of the power system.
You can easily stick with the 480MiniFan, it can do up to 800-900watts, just put more motor & battery into the setup.

The Mega 16/15/3 has worked well for me with 5s LiPO for 650+watts. Motor longevity has not been a problem (so far). I use this in my K&A F-84 as well as my HET F-18 & Skyray.

A better solution is the Mega 16/20/2 (that is rated by Mega for up to 40Amps) and 5sLipo. With the DS30 fan in my Stumax F-104 this gets [email protected] 46.5Amps here in Albuquerque-5300'MSL. Lower altitude Amps will be a bit higher.

You can get the 16/20/2 from [email protected] use at least a 60Amp ESC.
-Mike
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Old 03-01-2006, 09:48 PM
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tenore
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Mike,
Sorry to pick on you guys for my lack of knowledge. If I use a 5s lipo, what mah pack do I need. Another question, what span would work for the 16/15/2. May run into budget constraints. If the smaller one works, then may enlarge the next time. Thanks a bunch. I'd love to see some of these birds fly, but I can't get to Florida Jets this weekend.
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Old 03-02-2006, 02:36 AM
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Hi tenore,
Smaller? Just offhand I guess I'd size it to match the wing area of the HET F-4D Skyray. This model will work just fine on a Mega 16/15/2, 480MF, and 3s LiPo. (mine is 16/15/3 & 5s for 650+watts, but I've tried it at 450watts)
I'm on the road at work now thru the next week, so I can't measure it for you. Comes to mind that the Skyray is about 26" span? Maybe call Marcos @warbirdrc and ask him the size/area?

Go for it though..........an F-106 would be sweet!
-Mike
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Old 03-02-2006, 04:41 AM
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The HET Skyray has a 25 1/2 inch wing span with 310 sq. inches area.
It is 33 inches long and will weigh in around 36 to 39 oz.

It flys great on the Mega 2 turn with 3S2P 4000mAh.

As far as cost on the higher power systems all you are talking is an upgrade from a phx45 to a 60 and the bigger battery, also have to add a BEC. The 16/20/2 is only $10 more than the 2 turn.

Give me a buzz sometime and I'll be more than happy to try and help ya out.

Sounds like a cool project.
Randy
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:05 PM
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tenore
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Mike,
Ah, a mind is a terrible thing to uh, what was it again? After my last post I realized that all I had to do was go look at the Skyray or the Mirage 3000 for the minifan. All I need to do now is see if Kinko's will enlarge another drawing for half of what they charged before. Oh, well, now I already have the drawing for the 900 watt version.
Randy,
I think part of my problem is that someone I won't mention recommended a 35 amp controller and my suspicion is that I need a 45 amp because with a 20c 4000 mah 3s battery pack I think I may be abusing the controller. If perhaps I did want to totally abuse the whole system, using the 16/15/2 what controller and batteries I would use? I know I saw on another post you did where there were customers on yours getting 1000 watts. Was that with the 16/15/2?
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Old 03-02-2006, 09:04 PM
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Oh Man....DON'T take the advise of Mister "35AmpESC is OK".
The 16/15/2 on 3s in a MiniFan will pull upwards of 45-47Amps at full power.
I like the Castle Creations Phoenix controllers. Use a minimum of 45Amp and put the ESC in the tailpipe for cooling.
My personal opinion is that the Phx60 or Phx80 Amp controller is preferable if for no other reason than they have more/bigger capacitors to handle voltage spikes in the long battery leads.

My rough guide would be that a Mega 16/15/2 will go 450watts on 3sLiPo, the /3 will do 450watts on 4sLiPo (at lots lower Amps than the /2 and 3s) and 650watts on 5sLiPo, and a 16/20/2 will go 800+watts on 5s. I've not run 6s on that motor. This is based on running around 40-45Amps and here at 5300'MSL in Albuquerque.

I'm sure Randy can give some more exact info.
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Old 03-02-2006, 10:25 PM
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I think you already covered it Speed :p

Don't use the Phx35, I think the other fella is realy using an older 45 and can't tell the dif

Hard to get more than 800 watts in a minifan at a resonable cost.

Another option is the EDF16 on 4S = 750watts

Randy
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Old 03-06-2006, 03:57 PM
  #12  
tenore
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Randy,
Okay, I ordered a 60 amp cc controller from my lhs this weekend. ( I try to support him as much is possible). My reasoning was that it is only slightly larger and 1 oz heavier and I have more opportunities for upgrades. From what I gather you are recommending a 16/20/2 for better performance on 5s packs. Let me know what you think. I would still like to go with the 30" span on the 106.
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Old 04-06-2007, 02:48 PM
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georgef747
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Talking Virgin EDF

Gentlemen, am new to this forum, very green behind the ears about EDF but not to modelling - that's been going on now for 50 odd years. Built a ducted fan 0.49 some 30 years ago without even flying it! Been through Free flight, C/L, original bang bang escapments, Pixie R/C, scale 1/4 scale, O/T's, prop electrics etc, got lots of kit, lots of workshop, lots of time ; But no knowledge of EDF!

Also built and flew (often) what I believe was a Jetex 50 powered Keil Kraft F4 D when I was about ten years old. Have loved the plane since.

To the point: where can I do some beneficial reading to learn specifics like power plants, Power to weight ratios, cells for EDF, tubes, skills and most important - a plans for a SMALL (about 1-2lb - 1kg in my talk) F4D or F6D?
Help is much appreciated at this point
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:48 PM
  #14  
Ed Waldrep
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Tenore I think your batteries aren't the best or something else is up, my Mega 16/15/2 and Minifan 480 on two 3S 2100 thunder power extreme packs wire in parallel (with a parallel connector made by Electrifly or Eflite)is probably putting out over 500 watts. You must be getting some big voltage drop somewhere, most likely from your battery. If they are cheaper lipos they may be only 10 C rated and thus when pushed to the limit the voltage drops. What could happen is you'll be flying along and the voltage drops so much that you get a premature low voltage cutoff and can't even use the full capacity of your pack. You need either better batteries or a higher S count setup (use two batteries and wire them in series, two 3S packs makes for a 6S pack, but then you can't use the built in BEC on the motor controller, you have to run a seperate battery pack or a seperate BEC like the Ultimate BEC).

Over on RCGroups, Dan or Darren Savage had an F-106 plan posted several years ago sized for the Minifan 480 or maybe it was the Kyosho fan. Do a search there and you may find the discussion thread on it to give an idea of what size to shoot for. There was even a plan online somewhere in kinko's format (take it to kinkos and it gets printed full size).
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:29 PM
  #15  
tenore
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Ed, thanks for your response. I have been trying to finish up a HET F-20 for a while now. I had fits getting the wires run and just put it up for awhile. I've recently picked it up again, and have all the plumbing done, all that is left is the battery mount and canopy and then whatever detailing I want to do. I think the 3sp4000 pack I have will work fine. I have tested it, and it pulls somewhere in the neighborhood of 450 watts. I have decided that I will not buy another ARF, it's just easier to build a plane and put in the plumbing as you go.
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